invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[adw1977]

Foot controlled steering is a thing in modern cars, apparently. 

https://www.brookmiller.co.uk/foot-pedal-steering-adaption/

[adw1977]

1 minute ago, Nyphur said:

Yes I was thinking with modern electronics it would be feasible, albeit with a huge learning curve. But with the 50+ year old tech of an Invacare it would be Dignitas on 3 wheels.

It doesn't seem that electronics were involved in that 2019 Lexus conversion, though.  The article says "This is a fully mechanical solution that allows for foot pedal steering. "

[LightBulbFun]

13 minutes ago, Nyphur said:

Is there any  evidence of a "foot controlled" Invacare ever legally taking to the road? That sounds utterly mental.

I can't envisage any means by which you could SAFELY operate a vehicle's steering, acceleration and braking via two feet alone. The natural weight shift upon braking and its impact upon whatever contraption had been devised to allow the operator to steer does not bear thinking about.

Perhaps in modern times its possible, but back in the day of these Heath Robinson contraptions it is .... ambitious at best.

 

On 29/03/2020 at 18:45, LightBulbFun said:

https://www.whichmobilitycar.co.uk/thundersley-invacar-model-70/

yay found the story of the foot operated Model 70 again

also funnily enough the garage name is the same one on TJN352R's number plate  who I think are still going https://www.nevesgarage.co.uk/

(wonder if anyone there is from the Model 70 days still?)

 

I know of a few others, including a story of an approved repair of fixing a machine that had a steering plate for a very small women with small feet , and him having to basically test drive the thing with his toes because his feet would nit fit in the mounted shoes

when I got REV I was fortunate to get a copy of her 1985 V5 which listed Dennis (then as the current owner) and REV's first keeper in the previous keeper section, but sadly on the first keeper front no one seems to still survive (she never had any direct children etc)

so I have wondered if the machine being referred to in the story I heard with the small women and the foot plate was in-fact REV, but thats purely speculative 

[barefoot]

6 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

It doesn't seem that electronics were involved in that 2019 Lexus conversion, though.  The article says "This is a fully mechanical solution that allows for foot pedal steering. "

Doesn't a chap steer an aircraft with one's feet?

Rubber pedals I think they call them?

[adw1977]

3 minutes ago, barefoot said:

Doesn't a chap steer an aircraft with one's feet?

Rubber pedals I think they call them?

But in an aircraft you accelerate with your hand!

2 minutes ago, Nyphur said:

You're right, I just finished reading that article.

I can't really comprehend how someone without arms/hands can brace themselves and maintain control of the vehicle under braking when steering with their left foot.... but then the same would probably apply to someone without legs operating the rest of the controls with just their hands - though that seems far easier with the given dexterity most have with their hands vs their feet,

I suppose if you have no hands then you learn to be a lot more dextrous with your feet.  Some people paint pictures using a paintbrush between their toes!

[LightBulbFun]

9 minutes ago, barefoot said:

Doesn't a chap steer an aircraft with one's feet?

thats how I imagined such a foot controlled setup might be done, something like rudder pedals on an aircraft, push left and right for steering, and then tilt the whole thing with your feet for acceleration or braking 

 

I know that you can find a full harness seatbelt listed in the Model 70 parts list, which I always imagined was for if you where missing too many limbs for a regular 3 point belt (which is what a Model 70 has normally) to work properly

[Floatylight]

15 minutes ago, Nyphur said:

You're right, I just finished reading that article.

I can't really comprehend how someone without arms/hands can brace themselves and maintain control of the vehicle under braking when steering with their left foot.... but then the same would probably apply to someone without legs operating the rest of the controls with just their hands - though that seems far easier with the given dexterity most have with their hands vs their feet,

There was someone at my workplace with no arms or legs that drove a converted vw transporter which her wheelchair locked in as the drivers seat and was controlled  by a joystick she controller with her chin, it didn't physically have a steering wheel. Amazing its possible

[LightBulbFun]

46 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

Foot controlled steering is a thing in modern cars, apparently. 

https://www.brookmiller.co.uk/foot-pedal-steering-adaption/

its interesting to read the comments in that link about the complexity of modern cars making such adaptations harder to do

that is, and also because of what Etchy States here

On 09/03/2024 at 11:26, ETCHY said:

Interesting stuff, thanks for that.

I know i've said it before but I do think that it was such a great thing for a government to do to provide these vehicles & this whole end to end  & as far as I know free facility for the disabled.
I know we have Motability etc but that has to be paid for & with all the things around PIP etc being made more difficult these days I doubt any Government would truly take out a scheme like that with all its associated costs & infrastructure.
Others may disagree but IMO & whatever your viewpoint on Invacars themselves , the idea behind it all was  just somehow utterly good & decent.

is exactly why I said this a while back

On 14/08/2023 at 12:26, LightBulbFun said:

its one of things that, to this day I still dont think ever had a proper replacement, and I do still think there would be a market for a such vehicle even in todays day and age

in the same way there still is a market for Microcars, with the Electric Citroen Ami etc

 

I think that a vehicle which is designed from the ground up specifically for disabled people, and adaptable to the widest range of disabilities, like the Model 70 was, would be something that some people would quite appreciate to have

something bigger/faster/safer then a Mobility scooter, but not some massive modern car thats PITA to get around town in etc 

 

you could say I am saying Bring back Invacars,  but I would like to clarify, not like how you see it on facebook with the idiots who go "oh how dare someone get a free Range Rover, we should bring back Invacars because how dare disabled people get something nice"

I think the Motability scheme is a great thing, and should never be "gotten rid of" but I also do think that there would still be a market for something like a modern version of the Model 70, in addition to the Motability scheme

especially because a lot dont realise it, but a Motability car does cost the user money,  it is not provided "free of charge" like the aforementioned facebook idiots think it is, it takes your Mobility component of PIP away from you to pay for the vehicle in question (and if you do decide you want something a bit fancy you have to pay the upfront difference), all it really is just a very fancy 3 year lease, and not everyone might be able to afford losing that part of their disability  benefit in exchange for a set of wheels

where as the Invacar, was provided completely free of charge, and you even got *paid* a petrol allowance, they really where just like any other bit of NHS of kit handed out for *free* to help disabled a person mobilise, like an artificial limb or wheelchair is handed out

and nothing says that more then in the fact that to get an Invacar, you would simply go to your GP about it, who would get the ball rolling for it, in the same way if you get your leg blown off and needed an artificial one, again your GP would help sort that out

and likewise, you would pickup your Invacar, like your artificial limb, from an ALAC, Artificial limb and Appliance centre 

 

and I bring this up, because, we simply dont have anything like that anymore! and I think thats a shame

I am not saying bring back the Model 70 as it was, but I am saying I think its a shame the whole "invalid vehicle scheme" itself got so badly rubbished and axed

 

in some regards we really have gone full circle there as as an adapted Citroen Ami was shown off fairly recently!

https://insideevs.com/news/671175/citroen-ami-for-all-disabled-conversion/

a small blue car with seating for 1 and a space to stow a wheel chair and made out of plastic, now why does that sound so familiar! 

 

and yet its funny how the Invacar does get so much shit chucked at it, but people seem to be relatively fine with the above, when really they aint that different!

as is said before "there's nowt so queer as folk"  

I still think its a shame that there never was any direct replacement for the invalid vehicle scheme, I dont think people realise just how appliance like the whole scheme was run

even if you where only  temporarily disabled, lets say you broke both of your legs, not permanently or anything, but you knew you would be all cast up for a few weeks? back in the old days, the GP would be prescribe you 1 Invacar, to help you get out and about while your legs put themselves back together, thats how Graham hill ended up with one for a time for example

and you just dont have that option anymore, the only option is the Motablity scheme, which you have to have PIP for, which is a *massively painful* song and dance to go through

 

so I think an NHS provided vehicle, that was *specifically* designed from the ground up for the disabled and to be most adaptable to different disabilities, is still a hole left behind by the passing of the Invacar, that has never really been plugged

(obviously im not saying bring back the Model 70 Verbatim, car technology has come along way since 1971! but something of the same general ethos if you follow I imagine would be most welcome among certain disabled folk)

[LightBulbFun]

Hot off the press (well email) Ducan's Cat (well I presume its his!)

I am told approves of REV   

 

also this is my 12000th post! I was gonna do another photo montage as I usually do, but with this just landing in my inbox I thought REV and cats was equally fitting  

[Joey spud]

Des. I'm sure you've seen this already but on eBay there's currently a Bond Bug for sale with an Invacar showing in background.

 

 

[ETCHY]

11 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

its interesting to read the comments in that link about the complexity of modern cars making such adaptations harder to do

that is, and also because of what Etchy States here

is exactly why I said this a while back

I still think its a shame that there never was any direct replacement for the invalid vehicle scheme, I dont think people realise just how appliance like the whole scheme was run

even if you where only  temporarily disabled, lets say you broke both of your legs, not permanently or anything, but you knew you would be all cast up for a few weeks? back in the old days, the GP would be prescribe you 1 Invacar, to help you get out and about while your legs put themselves back together, thats how Graham hill ended up with one for a time for example

and you just dont have that option anymore, the only option is the Motablity scheme, which you have to have PIP for, which is a *massively painful* song and dance to go through

 

so I think an NHS provided vehicle, that was *specifically* designed from the ground up for the disabled and to be most adaptable to different disabilities, is still a hole left behind by the passing of the Invacar, that has never really been plugged

(obviously im not saying bring back the Model 70 Verbatim, car technology has come along way since 1971! but something of the same general ethos if you follow I imagine would be most welcome among certain disabled folk)

Can't ever see any government doing that scheme or anything like it again tbh.

1. Cost, & no matter what any government says about helping folk it'll come back to that. All the infrastructure, development costs etc wouldn't be cheap.

2. Image. Many folk wouldn't just want basic transport now, they'd want something better. Plus there's a stigma attached to a vehicle just for the disabled that people wouldn't want now either.

The concept is of its time. That time has passed IMHO.

[barefoot]

11 hours ago, barefoot said:

Rubber pedals I think they call them?

11 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

...something like rudder pedals on an aircraft...

I stand corrected.

[chadders]

But even they can have problems in something slightly more sophisticated than an invacare :

"Boeing is being investigated by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) for a United Airlines Boeing 737 MAX 8 flight that experienced a stuck rudder pedal upon landing at its base at Newark Liberty International Airport. The flight, UA1539, had operated from Nassau, Bahamas, and experienced the malfunction during touchdown at the New York airport on February 6th."

Article: https://simpleflying.com/ntsb-inve

[wuvvum]

On 01/03/2024 at 18:26, LightBulbFun said:

thats very interesting! as theres a Private AC Acedes thought to still survive today, that was originally registered 9771KR, but it was sadly robbed of its number plate in the mid 1990's and given the age related plate BFW598B (despite the fact an Acedes is not a vehicle of a MOT'able type, so should not of been allowed to have been robbed of its plate regardless)

 

 

 

Someone appears to have fitted a straight 6 out of an AC Ace to it as well.  Bet that shifts!

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, Joey spud said:

Des. I'm sure you've seen this already but on eBay there's currently a Bond Bug for sale with an Invacar showing in background.

 

 

well I had not seen that particular ebay listing, but the "scene" is known  I appreciate the heads up regardless as always  

On 19/11/2023 at 21:37, LightBulbFun said:

On 19/11/2023 at 21:08, doug said:

Spotted in the corner of an advert for a Bond Bug on Car and Classic. Reg ends in 8S?


Sent from my SM-A145R using Tapatalk
 

looking at the other pictures in that listing looks like WOO848S, a known car, it used to the show circuit alongside MHJ107P sometimes  (but I think MHJ107P has changed hands since then)

I wonder how inundated he is with questions about the Model 70, if you leave one in the background you usually get a torrent of questions about it LOL 

as always I appreciate the heads up  

 

[LightBulbFun]

29 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

Someone appears to have fitted a straight 6 out of an AC Ace to it as well.  Bet that shifts!

thats something I have noticed on a few of these, 1940PE is the same

I almost wonder if at some point the DVLA worked with decimal points, it meaning to be 197.1cc? I have seen a few Fiat 500's down as 4995cc which again I wonder was meant to be 499.5cc? (unless @Saabnut's Fiat 500 had an engine timeshare agreement with his Cobra!)

but indeed I do find it amusing how it results in the same cubic capacity as straight 6 AC!

 

I know for revenue weight they used to work with decimal points but at some point (I suspect during the major overhaul the computer system had in 1998) they then dropped them for some reason, for example REV's 1985 V5 states her revenue weight as 413.2Kg, but by her 2001 V5 it had become 413.0Kg

 

similarly the 1996 V5 for LPD806D states its revenue weight as 304.8Kg, but the 2023 V5 states 305.0Kg

[Snake Charmer]

18 hours ago, barefoot said:

Doesn't a chap steer an aircraft with one's feet?

Rubber pedals I think they call them?

A real chap steers with his joystick.

[Scruffy Bodger]

18 hours ago, Nyphur said:

You're right, I just finished reading that article.

I can't really comprehend how someone without arms/hands can brace themselves and maintain control of the vehicle under braking when steering with their left foot.... but then the same would probably apply to someone without legs operating the rest of the controls with just their hands - though that seems far easier with the given dexterity most have with their hands vs their feet,

I met a chap while at work some 15 years or so back who had some sort of small Jeep thing a a mobility vehicle, it was foot control only steering via a sandal or something like that attached to a piece of board iirc on the floor of the vehicle. He could use his hands but couldn't move his arms up and down. His shower had a balloon device on the wall he could trigger with his knee and he had various other bits and pieces about to help him maintain his freedom.

He was 82, he'd done a charity skydive for his 80th birthday apparently. Quite an individual!

It didn't exactly look like a high tec install but it obviously worked. I bet it cost an absolute fortune too.

[Snake Charmer]

18 hours ago, wuvvum said:

Someone appears to have fitted a straight 6 out of an AC Ace to it as well.  Bet that shifts!

This one is a Bristol in an Aceca, they do go well.

[chadders]

Weren't those based on pre war BMW sixes?

[Snake Charmer]

2 hours ago, chadders said:

Weren't those based on pre war BMW sixes?

Yes, war reparations I was told.  Sound lovely when wound up. One customers Bristol Ace is approaching 400k, not been off the road since 1965 when he bought it. 

[quicksilver]

I can't see any mention of GPL308N here so I guess you haven't seen this photo. It's from 'Motor Vehicle Registration Numbers of Great Britain 1974-2001' by Jonathan Del Mar, presumably from Mr Del Mar's own collection.

[LightBulbFun]

26 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

I can't see any mention of GPL308N here so I guess you haven't seen this photo. It's from 'Motor Vehicle Registration Numbers of Great Britain 1974-2001' by Jonathan Del Mar, presumably from Mr Del Mar's own collection.

hah cool, I am already aware of the block, GPL301N-GPL500N, but no not seen that specific Model 70/picture before now 

I wonder what it was being shown for? talking about how on the 1st of October 1974, the day the DVLC took over from local offices how all registration series reset to Gxx-N?

 

in that case he should of used a picture of a GPB462N-GPB661N car which was the very first block of AC Model 70's to be registered after the DVLC took over  

or better yet one of the GEV459N-GEV558N block of Invacar Model 70's as GEV-N registration series was the very first Essex registration series issued by the then new DVLC system

 

its telling in that regard just how much more organised AC was then Invacar, 

AC specifically had a short block of XPH541N-XPH640N issued and registered before the change (note only 100 cars big vs 200 cars big that AC's normally are) so they where obviously aware of the impending administrative changes and got all their Model 70's registered in time for the change

but Invacar never did, and the thing is, when the this reset to Gxx-N happened, all previously issued but not yet used marks, got voided, and this was a big problem for Invacar, since they had not registered all of their TVW501N-TVW600N block which got cut short at TVW577N

and even within the TVW501N-TVW577N section not all of the Invacars had been registered, so there are holes where the late cars that should of been in the TVW-N block but where not registered in time, ended up in the GEV459N-GEV558N and GPU21N-GPU70N blocks 

 

that was a right old fun clusterfuck to figure out  

[Barry Cade]

[ETCHY]

3 hours ago, quicksilver said:

I can't see any mention of GPL308N here so I guess you haven't seen this photo. It's from 'Motor Vehicle Registration Numbers of Great Britain 1974-2001' by Jonathan Del Mar, presumably from Mr Del Mar's own collection.

I'm liking the sound of that book. Does it have photo's of the cars in too, is it worth a potential number plate geek buying ?

[quicksilver]

1 minute ago, ETCHY said:

I'm liking the sound of that book. Does it have photo's of the cars in too, is it worth a potential number plate geek buying ?

Definitely, but you'll want the companion volume covering 1963-74 as well. They're incredibly detailed and thoroughly researched works covering the exact sequence of issues in every area and all the odd exceptions to the usual rules. Not a lot of photos, just a selection illustrating plates issued in each area, but some interesting ones that don't appear to have been published elsewhere. They give the impression of being a lifetime's work but were really just a side project as Jonathan Del Mar is much better known for his equally detailed study of Beethoven's music.

[LightBulbFun]

9 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

Definitely, but you'll want the companion volume covering 1963-74 as well. They're incredibly detailed and thoroughly researched works covering the exact sequence of issues in every area and all the odd exceptions to the usual rules. Not a lot of photos, just a selection illustrating plates issued in each area, but some interesting ones that don't appear to have been published elsewhere. They give the impression of being a lifetime's work but were really just a side project as Jonathan Del Mar is much better known for his equally detailed study of Beethoven's music.

this is the exact sort of thing I live for  do you have a link to a preferred retailer/where you got your copies from?

[quicksilver]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

hah cool, I am already aware of the block, GPL301N-GPL500N, but no not seen that specific Model 70/picture before now 

I wonder what it was being shown for? talking about how on the 1st of October 1974, the day the DVLC took over from local offices how all registration series reset to Gxx-N?

It's just one of a selection of photos on the Guildford page showing registrations issued by that authority. No particular significance and no caption detailing when and where it was taken. I guess it's just a car he stumbled across on his travels and decided to take a photo of. This volume starts from the October 74 changes and the preface goes into great detail about what happened then - it really is some impressive number plate geekery and that's just his hobby as he's a music scholar by profession.

I got my copies directly from the author - he approached me at Rustival as he rightly thought I looked like the sort of enthusiast who would be interested in such a work. Volume 1 seems to be mostly sold out online and volume 2 has only just been published and isn't available retail yet. I'll PM you his contact details.

[LightBulbFun]

30 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

It's just one of a selection of photos on the Guildford page showing registrations issued by that authority. No particular significance and no caption detailing when and where it was taken. I guess it's just a car he stumbled across on his travels and decided to take a photo of. This volume starts from the October 74 changes and the preface goes into great detail about what happened then - it really is some impressive number plate geekery and that's just his hobby as he's a music scholar by profession.

I got my copies directly from the author - he approached me at Rustival as he rightly thought I looked like the sort of enthusiast who would be interested in such a work. Volume 1 seems to be mostly sold out online and volume 2 has only just been published and isn't available retail yet. I'll PM you his contact details.

interesting, I wonder if the books might finally explain a few of the oddities I have stumbled across in the past

like for example Essex issued a couple series out of alphabetical order

On 07/09/2020 at 02:32, LightBulbFun said:

did some more bashing, pretty sure YWC900F-YWC999F and AHK101F-AHK200F are blocks, however nothing shows up so i cant say for certain (but its a 100 car gap and it fits the pattern of how frequently Invacar blocks show up)

did find the very last F reg Invacar block tho  BOO601F-BOO700F, (on a non invacar related note the next registration series issued after BOO-F by Essex was AVX-G, yes for some reason it went AVW-F then BOO-F then AVX-G and so in alphabetical order again, quite curious as to why BOO was issued out of order, clerical error perhaps?)

 

On 02/01/2020 at 14:15, LightBulbFun said:

then heres where things get proper weird!

after Txx-E comes Uxx-E alphabeticly right?

yet for some weird reason Uxx-E for the essex area was issued BEFORE Txx-E

im not sure why, but its properly weird, and I was about to write off the entire Uxx-E reg ranges because it would mess up the Invacar blocks alphabetically

but low and behold I found the UNO-E block, and one does show up (by the skin of its teeth seeing as the block is UNO301E-UNO400E) and just like the Uxx-E reg series it was registered February 1967!

where as THK195E which was issued alphabetically before it was registered later, at least UNO399E's chassis number looks to be accurate I THINK so I can use it as another jumping off point

 

thank you for the PM ill have to see about getting the 2 volumes ordered  

[ETCHY]

51 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

It's just one of a selection of photos on the Guildford page showing registrations issued by that authority. No particular significance and no caption detailing when and where it was taken. I guess it's just a car he stumbled across on his travels and decided to take a photo of. This volume starts from the October 74 changes and the preface goes into great detail about what happened then - it really is some impressive number plate geekery and that's just his hobby as he's a music scholar by profession.

I got my copies directly from the author - he approached me at Rustival as he rightly thought I looked like the sort of enthusiast who would be interested in such a work. Volume 1 seems to be mostly sold out online and volume 2 has only just been published and isn't available retail yet. I'll PM you his contact details.

Could you please PM me his details too ?
Many thanks