invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

7 hours ago, Yoss said:

I'd say marginally worse than an RT and marginally better than a DMS. Does that help?

pretty sure an actual brick is more aerodynamic then a DMS

[HMC]

Im fascinated by CD related matters, i wonder if the invacar is surprisingly slippery, as the rear window and rear end treatment do follow the principles laid down by prof. Wunnibald Kamm.

Panhard, Bonnet and others used to aim for an index victory at le mans as they didn’t have the firepower for an outright win. Makes you wonder if AC didn’t t miss a trick; instead of caning the cobra idea to death with its limiting aero why not give it to the frenchies by entering a “low drag” invacar (moon discs, faired in headlamps, high compression engine etc ) and aim for an index victory. In your face Charles Deutsch.

[Rust Collector]

7 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Whilst the needle appears to be dead, the digital section is reading out an impressive indicated speed of 12,000mph.

[RoverFolkUs]

Won't be a minute folks, I'm off to find out the top speed just for the LOLz

Coming to a smart motorway near you

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, HMC said:

Im fascinated by CD related matters, i wonder if the invacar is surprisingly slippery, as the rear window and rear end treatment do follow the principles laid down by prof. Wunnibald Kamm.

Panhard, Bonnet and others used to aim for an index victory at le mans as they didn’t have the firepower for an outright win. Makes you wonder if AC didn’t t miss a trick; instead of caning the cobra idea to death with its limiting aero why not give it to the frenchies by entering a “low drag” invacar (moon discs, faired in headlamps, high compression engine etc ) and aim for an index victory. In your face Charles Deutsch.

I would love to see a Model 70 popped into a wind tunnel and modelled   

 

but if your gonna use a VJN car, you could use one that has actually been to a race track

 

also just in general lets not forget that a Model 70 has actually been around a track also  

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

10 hours ago, JJ0063 said:

https://www.facebook.com/share/97Dz7zHRkEuGKKrj/?mibextid=79PoIi

thats the same one as last time aint it?

except 400 quid dearer! wonder what the sellers reasoning is there?! initially my first thought was "flipper" but I do notice the sellers other items shows some motorcycle stuff so I wonder he bought it for bike hauling then realised it didn't work out for his needs or something?

 

whatever the reason good to know its still floating about  I appreciate the heads up and ill keep an eye on it and see if it drops in price or such

[JJ0063]

7 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

thats the same one as last time aint it?

except 400 quid dearer! wonder what the sellers reasoning is there?! initially my first thought was "flipper" but I do notice the sellers other items shows some motorcycle stuff so I wonder he bought it for bike hauling then realised it didn't work out for his needs or something?

 

whatever the reason good to know its still floating about  I appreciate the heads up and ill keep an eye on it and see if it drops in price or such

Same one yes, I posted it really because I thought you said someone from Kent had bought it yet it’s being sold within about 5 minutes of where it was before.

[EyesWeldedShut]

9 hours ago, Rust Collector said:

Whilst the needle appears to be dead, the digital section is reading out an impressive indicated speed of 12,000mph.

Escape velocity meter - it counts back from 12,000 to 0 (thus indicating that you have reached Outer Space).
Zero reading is usually reached after losing the slipstream  of an AC Cobra on a banked bend at Le Mans. Before you can think 'merde' your lightweight and slipstreamed @HMC special is soaring up, up and away into the 5th Dimension over the ski-jump like banking. 12,000 spooling down to zero. Sorted.

BYO oxygen,

[chadders]

10 hours ago, HMC said:

Im fascinated by CD related matters, i wonder if the invacar is surprisingly slippery, as the rear window and rear end treatment do follow the principles laid down by prof. Wunnibald Kamm.

Panhard, Bonnet and others used to aim for an index victory at le mans as they didn’t have the firepower for an outright win. Makes you wonder if AC didn’t t miss a trick; instead of caning the cobra idea to death with its limiting aero why not give it to the frenchies by entering a “low drag” invacar (moon discs, faired in headlamps, high compression engine etc ) and aim for an index victory. In your face Charles Deutsch.

Given the protruding bonnet catches and what appears to be a lip around it I'd expect them to significantly impact the smoothness of the airflow. Things like protruding front indicators and a wing mirror won't help either. A few million quid sent in Porsches direction might help speed wise but stability is probably another issue, it'd probably do a Mark Webber.

https://youtu.be/ZXZaAuyuYmQ?si=d3VvcC2Y4glwNiwn

[Mr Pastry]

12 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

pretty sure an actual brick is more aerodynamic then a DMS

AIUI the RM airport coaches were geared for 70 mph.  If they would really do that on the standard engine - 115bhp? - they were more aerodynamic than you might think.

[chadders]

 

These may or may not be of interest:

 

[Mr Pastry]

1 minute ago, chadders said:

These may or may not be of interest:

To which should be added Caterham Seven, 0.65, but of course it has a very small frontal area. 

[chadders]

Is that hood up or down as I imagine with it down the vortices could be significant?

[Mr Pastry]

15 minutes ago, chadders said:

Is that hood up or down as I imagine with it down the vortices could be significant?

Can't remember the details now, but there was a slight difference.   Pretty sure it was better with hood up - maybe 0.63. 

[Rovorsche]

18 hours ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Drag coefficient results are a bit of a head scratcher. 

35 years ago the Calibra achieved 0.26

 

The implication being Vauxhall Owners would win at Ru Pauls Drag Race ?

[coachie]

On 03/02/2024 at 18:51, RoverFolkUs said:

Has the rent gone up in the politics section? Everyone seems to have moved to this thread to argue about things 🤣

You have inspired a modern-day malapropism,  we're all living rent free in @LightBulbFun's thread.

[Jim Bergerac]

12 hours ago, RoverFolkUs said:

Won't be a minute folks, I'm off to find out the top speed just for the LOLz

Coming to a smart motorway near you

You may jest, but a mate of mine was once absolutely baffled, as he was overtaken by a giant Creme Egg on the dual carriageway. 

This festered in his mind for 20 years, maybe the whole thing was a hallucination before he asked me about it. "Jim, you know about cars and chocolate... Is there such a thing as a giant motorised Creme Egg?" 

"Why yes, it was a Bedford Rascal underneath" 

He was in a lorry, so we can surmise that the top speed of a motorised Creme Egg is greater than 60mph. Despite terrible aerodynamics. 

[Christine]

I always hankered after a Bond Bug ,and then  Scott gave me a ton of old Motor magazines .. The Bond Bug got such a slating  on its road test it put me right off !  

[chadders]

I had a lift in one once to a country pub, one of the Upper 6th got it for his birthday.

Going down narrow country lanes was terrifying so I cadged a lift back in a knackered Land Rover.

[chadders]

42 minutes ago, Jim Bergerac said:

You may jest, but a mate of mine was once absolutely baffled, as he was overtaken by a giant Creme Egg on the dual carriageway. 

This festered in his mind for 20 years, maybe the whole thing was a hallucination before he asked me about it. "Jim, you know about cars and chocolate... Is there such a thing as a giant motorised Creme Egg?" 

"Why yes, it was a Bedford Rascal underneath" 

He was in a lorry, so we can surmise that the top speed of a motorised Creme Egg is greater than 60mph. Despite terrible aerodynamics. 

The Outspan Oranges were apparently based on Minis.

There were 3 of them parked in a yard on Berkhamsted High Street for many years and they never seemed to move.

 

 

 

[barefoot]

29 minutes ago, chadders said:

Going down narrow country lanes was terrifying...

I doubt it was the speed, was it the ludicrously short wheelbase, its three wheeleryness, or the proximity to the ground that caused the fears?

1 hour ago, Christine said:

I always hankered after a Bond Bug... ... got such a slating  on its road test it put me right off !  

I still remain a little curious, I'd be very grateful if you could upload a scan on here, or to me via PM. 

[chadders]

2 minutes ago, barefoot said:

I doubt it was the speed, was it the ludicrously short wheelbase, its three wheeleryness, or the proximity to the ground that caused the fears?

I still remain a little curious, I'd be very grateful if you could upload a scan on here, or to me via PM. 

It wasn't the speed, the roads were very 'bendy' so we didn’t go very fast. It felt very unstable so I suspect the 3 wheelyness and short wheelbase, it felt like it was going to tip over at even low speeds like what happened at 10mph at the FoD. This was in a 'car' with a steering wheel that was virtually brand new not dragged from a field

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, JJ0063 said:

Same one yes, I posted it really because I thought you said someone from Kent had bought it yet it’s being sold within about 5 minutes of where it was before.

Yeah thats a good point! its what the seller said to me, and I just posted this screenshot at the time for all to see  

when she said "car gone today" that was Friday, so perhaps someone local nabbed it before the kent person?

 

 

[RayMK]

Three wheelers feel different from four wheelers.  If you are used to them they do not feel unstable.  Motoring journalists generally compare road holding and handling capabilities of a vehicle based on their predominantly four wheeled experience. Anything out of the ordinary e.g. the 2cv6 was often slated as having alarming handling by those not used to roll angles despite it having the full complement of wheels.  Plonk a typical journalist, or for that matter anyone who has  not ridden  one before,  on a motorcycle and sidecar and they can't cope with the three wheeled asymmetric characteristics, labelling them as dangerous.  In the past, people who drove three wheelers typically graduated from motorcycles where alertness to road conditions and willingness to learn a vehicle's characteristics was definitely required.  Nowadays, three wheelers are generally owned by enthusiasts who do not try to drive them like a modern generic car but, depending on the make and model, can still drive them rapidly and enjoy the experience.  I daresay that if I attempted to drive an HGV or a double decker it would feel terrifying and/or dangerous until my senses and techniques were suitably attuned by tuition and experience.   

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

AIUI the RM airport coaches were geared for 70 mph.  If they would really do that on the standard engine - 115bhp? - they were more aerodynamic than you might think.

Yeah they where indeed geared and would do 70, and so was the even heavier/longer 8 Ton RCL (Routemaster Coach lengthened) but they and the RMA's (Routemaster Airport) did have bigger 11.3L AEC AV690 engines tuned for 169hp, vs the standard 9.6L AEC AV590 (and Leyland O.600) tuned for 115hp as you say  

so not quite as impressive from a HP to speed perspective sadly, but its still fun to know there are 70Mph Routemasters out there

I have heard that an RMA with it high speed diff, but fitted with a normal small engine will top out at about 55mph, and if you take a standard Routemaster, with its low speed city diff, and fit it with an AV690 large engine, it can climb buildings and other vertical inclines LOL

 

I also know the AEC AV760 engine can be made to fit Routemasters, a few swaps have been done with them, but I dont know what their performance figures are like in an RM

 

I did find this thread tho

https://www.trucknetuk.com/t/aec-av760-l12-tl12/111081

which goes with the fact I noticed that in the enthusiast space in general, most people dont Like Routemasters or the their enthusiasts! I know even on this forum a lot of the resident bus enthusiasts are explicitly not fans of the RM, I think its just me and Yoss as Routemaster enthusiasts 

I notice specifically that it seems a lot of distain for the RM is simply the fact it survives in large numbers while other buses dont survive 

 just because it survives why does it have to be hated so much? (obviously I think its very sad so many bus types are extinct, and I wish they where preserved, but I dont see why the Routemaster should be hated for it LOL)

I guess this is how MGB owners feel

[Sheefag]

Have we had L'Œuf électrique yet? I have suggested a rebrand and relaunch as 'Le Sacre Merde' but sadly no reply yet.

 

 

[Mr Pastry]

14 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yeah they where indeed geared and would do 70, and so was the even heavier/longer 8 Ton RCL (Routemaster Coach lengthened) but they and the RMA's (Routemaster Airport) did have bigger 11.3L AEC AV690 engines tuned for 169hp, vs the standard 9.6L AEC AV590 (and Leyland O.600) tuned for 115hp as you say  

Ah the more powerful engine explains it.  With 169hp and 70 mph the Cd seems to be about 0.52 which is still not too bad.   Top speed in the shorter/lighter  body would probably be much the same, as the weight affects acceleration more than top speed.

[chadders]

24 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yeah they where indeed geared and would do 70, and so was the even heavier/longer 8 Ton RCL (Routemaster Coach lengthened) but they and the RMA's (Routemaster Airport) did have bigger 11.3L AEC AV690 engines tuned for 169hp, vs the standard 9.6L AEC AV590 (and Leyland O.600) tuned for 115hp as you say  

so not quite as impressive from a HP to speed perspective sadly, but its still fun to know there are 70Mph Routemasters out there

I have heard that an RMA with it high speed diff, but fitted with a normal small engine will top out at about 55mph, and if you take a standard Routemaster, with its low speed city diff, and fit it with an AV690 large engine, it can climb buildings and other vertical inclines LOL

 

I also know the AEC AV760 engine can be made to fit Routemasters, a few swaps have been done with them, but I dont know what their performance figures are like in an RM

 

I did find this thread tho

https://www.trucknetuk.com/t/aec-av760-l12-tl12/111081/17

which goes with the fact I noticed that in the enthusiast space in general, most people dont Like Routemasters or the their enthusiasts! I know even on the forum a lot of the resident bus enthusiasts are explicitly not fans of the RM, I think its just me and Yoss as Routemaster enthusiasts 

I notice specifically that it seems a lot of distain for the RM is simply the fact it survives in large numbers while other buses dont survive 

 just because it survives why does it have to be hated so much? (obviously I think its very sad so many bus types are extinct, and I wish they where preserved, but I dont see why the Routemaster should be hated for it LOL)

I guess this is how MGB owners feel

That's nonsense, sadly.

How many MGB owners do you actually know?

There's at least 4 just on TDW that I know of and no comments about their cars being hated.

LOL

 

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, RayMK said:

Three wheelers feel different from four wheelers.  If you are used to them they do not feel unstable.  Motoring journalists generally compare road holding and handling capabilities of a vehicle based on their predominantly four wheeled experience. Anything out of the ordinary e.g. the 2cv6 was often slated as having alarming handling by those not used to roll angles despite it having the full compliment of wheels.  Plonk a typical journalist, or for that matter anyone who has  not ridden  one before,  on a motorcycle and sidecar and they can't cope with the three wheeled asymmetric characteristics, labelling them as dangerous.  In the past, people who drove three wheelers typically graduated from motorcycles where alertness to road conditions and willingness to learn a vehicle's characteristics was definitely required.  Nowadays, three wheelers are generally owned by enthusiasts who do not try to drive them like a modern generic car but, depending on the make and model, can still drive them rapidly and enjoy the experience.  I daresay that if I attempted to drive an HGV or a double decker it would feel terrifying and/or dangerous until my senses and techniques were suitably attuned by tuition and experience.   

yes this is one my biggest gripes with people "reviewing" invacars, especially back in the 1970's

"well known person says Invalid Tricycle is the most scary/dangerous  car they have ever driven"

but the thing is invalid vehicles have a fundamentally different control scheme and handling feel, of course if your not used to it,  and just get chucked into one without any tuition or prior experience it is going to be terrifying and feel dangerous, but if you spend any actual time using the machine, you would quickly find they handle just fine

 

and I imagine you took an Invacar user who has only ever used a Tiller control or handle bar machine, and chucked them into a regular steering wheel with foot pedals car, they probably would say its terrifying "look at all this hand twirling and foot dancing I am having to do to keep this thing going in a straight line!"  

its much like the same of an Airbus A320 vs an Boeing 737, if you take a pilot from either, and swap em round without any prior  type approval training then Im sure they would say each of their respective planes feels highly dangerous and handles funny (good old side stick vs yolk argument  )

but each plane is fundamentally sound (well for the most part, 737 Max aside LOL)

or the same way if you take a car drive, and chuck em on a sports motorcycle, they would probably evacuate themselves on it LOL, but that does not mean the motorcycle is fundamentally bad handling dangerous machine

but very few people (clearly evident by the comments on these last few pages) are willing to see past this sadly

 

 

 

[Jazoli]

 

"invalid vehicles have a fundamentally different control scheme and handling feel, of course if your not used to it, it is going to be terrifying and feel dangerous, but if you spend any actual time using the machine, you would quickly find they handle just fine"

how did you manage to roll the invacare at 10mph btw?