invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[dollywobbler]

Brakes are nice and simple to work on, but you do need a tool for the adjuster. I had issues with the handbrake pivot sticking causing my rear brakes to bind. If you reach under from the driver's side, you can test that it's fully released when the handle is. Chock it first!

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, Yoss said:

We demand a night shot outside the chippy! 

Yeah I really wish I grabbed something! not happy that I forgot LOL, mind its all a bit of a sensory overload so to speak for me still atm! and it was cold LOL

2 hours ago, High Jetter said:

Brakes might just be down to lack of use, but it would be worth a look with drums off to be on the safe side - I know that's not as easily done as said, though.

 

50 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

Brakes are nice and simple to work on, but you do need a tool for the adjuster. I had issues with the handbrake pivot sticking causing my rear brakes to bind. If you reach under from the driver's side, you can test that it's fully released when the handle is. Chock it first!

Yeah still need to get my hands on of those square spanners!

thats a good shout on the handbrake pivot ill give that a poke next time im doing some tinkering on her   I did wonder given it was just the rear wheels that where pretty equally warm, if it was the handbrake was not fully releasing (you can see me in the video put it back on and release it again in an attempt to try and get things to free off)

my brother did manage to grab a video of me pulling away, so you can see how she did not want to move (was also a bit nerve wrecking as I did not want to give it too much throttle then have it suddenly let go on me and send myself flying into the wall or Rover LOL)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihe0UX_wYaQ

[Dick Cheeseburger]

^ Poor old girl. That looks like bloody hard work for Rev. I've got zero idea on how the gearboxes/clutches work on Invacars but I can't see that helping anything. Definitely worth getting the rear brakes sorted sooner rather than later. Is the exhaust blowing on the manifold too? 

[JJ0063]

Good god LBF that isn’t just sticking ‘a bit’ mate!

Wouldn’t drive that anymore until you’ve stripped those brakes down. That is really binding.

 

[LightBulbFun]

On 22/12/2021 at 21:53, Dick Longbridge said:

^ Poor old girl. That looks like bloody hard work for Rev. I've got zero idea on how the gearboxes/clutches work on Invacars but I can't see that helping anything. Definitely worth getting the rear brakes sorted sooner rather than later. Is the exhaust blowing on the manifold too? 

yeah!, I dont think she was quite this bad on her first trip to the chippy but she was not exactly free rolling either then

the drivetrain layout on a Model 70 is, the Engine drives 3 centrifugal clutch shoes mounted to the flywheel, that engage onto a big drum on the Forward/Neutral/Reverse gear box, which then sends drive into Pulley 1 of the CVT system, then through the belt into pulley number 2 which then sends drive to a Triplex chain that drives the Fiat 500 differential which finally sends drive out via 2 Fiat 500 drive shafts and hubs (however drilled and studded for 4 inch PCD) to the rear wheels

I dont think many other vehicles can claim to have a gearbox, a transmission and a chain drive at the same time!

and yeah I have been wondering about the exhaust, I know for a fact that one of her exhaust manifold down pipes to the exhaust had developed a hole at some point in the (distant?) past, which Adam said he was able to put a patch over, but I wonder if the patch has failed or something such, as to my ear she sounds no different to before she went to adam for recommissioning so I was wondering if it had failed or such

I have never actually seen the original hole or the patch over as  its quite painful for me to get down that low, (I should of had a look when I was draining the excess oil a month ago!) but if im going to be prodding the handbrake mechanism I may as well try and have a look  

On 22/12/2021 at 22:18, JJ0063 said:

Good god LBF that isn’t just sticking ‘a bit’ mate!

Wouldn’t drive that anymore until you’ve stripped those brakes down. That is really binding.

Yeah! I hope I can free them off! as I was planning on visiting a bakery a couple miles way on the 24th to get some stuff from there I know my mum likes, for a slightly longer but still  fairly local/slow speed run out

[dollywobbler]

That exhaust does sound quite blowy...

[Noel Tidybeard]

i would say idle is way too low and where you were revving to is around where normal idle is and that is why no movement until you just gave it a bit extra

[dollywobbler]

4 hours ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

i would say idle is way too low and where you were revving to is around where normal idle is and that is why no movement until you just gave it a bit extra

The idle is a bit low, but you can't have it too high or the clutch just starts dragging and you can't select gears. You can hear the clutch shoes strike the gearbox drum as he raises the revs, so it's started to engage. 

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

in Lightbulb news, I just had this arrive  a very comprehensive and detailed limited run book about 500 pages long on the incandescent lamp, that I very much look forward to reading through!

I figured it would be fitting to picture it next to the oldest Lamp in my collection a 16 Candle power 100V Carbon filament lamp from the Ediswan company manufactured in about 1893  

[EightMegs]

If you have the right tool, wind the self adjusters off slightly and give the rear brakes a few whacks with a hammer and they'll likely release.

[Noel Tidybeard]

may i suggest now that REV is a thing it might be worth creating a separate thread- cos maybe not everyone who comes for lightbulbs wants to wade through invacar tales and vice versa👍

[Angrydicky]

Sounds like the wheel cylinders are sticking. When you've applied the brakes the pistons have pushed out and aren't returning properly because of crap in the bores - ancient brake fluid holds moisture, so they will be full of what looks like rusty water. The shoe springs would normally pull the pistons back in when you release the brakes but the spring tension can't override the sticking pistons.

Best to just pop a pair of new ones on, I can't remember what they're from but I have a feeling it's Triumph Herald. Can recommend http://www.mevspares.co.uk/

Looks like good fun though, I bet you've always got a smile on your face bombing about in that.

[Blake's Den]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

in Lightbulb news, I just had this arrive  a very comprehensive and detailed limited run book on the incandescent lamp, that I very much look forward to reading through!

I figured it would be fitting to picture it next to the oldest Lamp in my collection a 16 Candle power 100V Carbon filament lamp from the Ediswan company manufactured in about 1893  

Hopefully it will be an illuminating read.

 

I'll get my coat!

[LightBulbFun]

43 minutes ago, EightMegs said:

If you have the right tool, wind the self adjusters off slightly and give the rear brakes a few whacks with a hammer and they'll likely release.

Yeah I have been meaning to get one of those anyway for routine shoe wear adjusting anyhow, just got bumped up the list!

I have ordered a hopefully suitable square drive brake adjuster spanner from amazon  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-7200-Brake-Adjusting-Wrench/dp/B0001K9O4W

Just now, Angrydicky said:

Sounds like the wheel cylinders are sticking. When you've applied the brakes the pistons have pushed out and aren't returning properly because of crap in the bores - ancient brake fluid holds moisture, so they will be full of what looks like rusty water.

Best to just pop a pair of new ones on, I can't remember what they're from but I have a feeling it's Triumph Herald.

Looks like good fun though, I bet you've always got a smile on your face bombing about in that.

yeah thats something I feared, the brake fluid is a bit dark and I have no idea when it was last changed (its still clearly the original fluid from who knows when, from when I bought the car, its not been changed while she was away)

IIRC the wheel cylinders are also shared with some of the later Reliant 3 wheelers, I do thankfully have a full girling brake parts list for the Model 70 that lists the girling part number for all the brake components of a Model 70, so should not be hard to cross reference if needed  

sadly fitting new brake hardware is beyond my abilities on my own, and was above everything else one of the major things I was really hoping would be one of the things fixed/replaced, but sadly looking like thats not been the case

[Dobloseven]

What actually was done when it was recommissioned? 

[captain_70s]

6 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

What actually was done when it was recommissioned? 

This is what I'm wondering. Was there ever any communication about what was/wasn't being done?

Also, it strikes me you're now left with a car that is seized in place* which you can't fix. Honestly replacing brake components is one of the simpler and more accessible jobs on a car.

 

*Certainly don't use it until the brakes are sorted, safety aside your life will get considerably worse if you warp the drums.

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

What actually was done when it was recommissioned? 

Good question! Im not entirely sure myself

I was informed I would get a list, (and a load of pictures) but sadly no such list has yet to be provided

I know that a new fuel tank was made and fitted, a new battery and the lights replaced/made to work (funnily enough the person I bought the rear lights from had actually had a whole bunch of Model 70 parts in the past he sold to someone, what are the chances of that!)

I also know the handbrake cables where replaced with new ones from my parts stash, and that work was done to the other existing brake hardware to free it off, but otherwise from what I can tell that nothing was changed, I did ask about it, but it was clear that he did not want to get that involved

the work was done was very kindly done FoC as a thanks for all the effort and work I put in to help him get his Model 70's on the road, so I was not going to argue too much!

so for me its a bit of a problem, I obviously dont want to come across as unappreciative of the work done, dont get me wrong I very much appreciate the work/help he provided but at the same time, clearly not as much work was done as I thought there would be 

6 hours ago, captain_70s said:

This is what I'm wondering. Was there ever any communication about what was/wasn't being done?

Also, it strikes me you're now left with a car that is seized in place* which you can't fix. Honestly replacing brake components is one of the simpler and more accessible jobs on a car.

 

*Certainly don't use it until the brakes are sorted, safety aside your life will get considerably worse if you warp the drums.

yeah! communication from him with regards to work being done on REV was not the best, it did worry me throughout, and sadly now he is not responding to my messages

(most of which are not even about REV, just me asking how he is getting on with his other Model 70s)

I dont know I hope I have not upset him in someway!

I have a feeling he had good intentions, but then he got REV it was a bit like "oh what have I just got myself into" and rushed everything at the last minute to get REV back out the door and thats perfectly fine and all I just wish if this was indeed the case it was communicated a bit better so I could have made alternative arrangements

instead of having her brought home thinking she is ready to be driven about when actually she still needs/needed a whole bunch more work doing! (even once the brakes are sorted, I dont think any any of the diff or gear oil has been changed nor has the oil strainer been dropped, so those are jobs I want to do before I go anywhere far with her! I rather not have a diff detonate on the way to the FoD because it turns out all the oil had leaked out 20 years ago!) 

 

the problem  with regards to the brakes is Model 70's brakes are a right bastard of a Job to do when your on your own, im sure you remember @dollywobbler struggling to get the shoes on TWC and I can tell you now it would not end well if I tried that on my own!

im not adverse to trying to free them off, maybe get the wheel and drum off and have an inspection/look at things, but I know getting any deeper then that is beyond my abilities

 

theres also the fact brakes are safety critical so im a bit weary about messing with them given that I dont have any experience ( I know its not all that hard to make brake lines with a flaring tool etc)

but its something if I was doing id like to do in the presence of someone who does know what they are doing! 

the safety critical aspect is also why im a bit nervous about the fact all the brake lines are still whats on the car when I got her, I have no idea what sort of shape they are in! Adam said he would not send me out in a death trap, so id like to think he gave them a once over, but I dont know!

 

[JJ0063]

Just my tuppence worth but with a car like this, if you actually want to use it as your daily driver / only vehicle I personally think you need to save some cash and either book it in somewhere or pay someone who is competent to do a list of jobs you’ve asked to be done.

How you’ve had the work so far is both very generous but also a bit of a pain as you can’t expect much if this has all been done for free so far. 
 

In an ideal world you need a classic car specialist to give it a top to bottom once over and go through the jobs one by one. I know funds dictate a lot of it but I honestly think this will end up as a car where you fix one job and create two more if not. 

[beko1987]

I cant be of much practical help with any of it but if she wants fetching back to the fod for safety I'm happy to help 👍

[LightBulbFun]

36 minutes ago, JJ0063 said:

Just my tuppence worth but with a car like this, if you actually want to use it as your daily driver / only vehicle I personally think you need to save some cash and either book it in somewhere or pay someone who is competent to do a list of jobs you’ve asked to be done.

How you’ve had the work so far is both very generous but also a bit of a pain as you can’t expect much if this has all been done for free so far. 
 

In an ideal world you need a classic car specialist to give it a top to bottom once over and go through the jobs one by one. I know funds dictate a lot of it but I honestly think this will end up as a car where you fix one job and create two more if not. 

the problem is finding someone who will touch a Model 70/knows what they are doing with one! 

 

in-fact when I first got to know adam, he did suggest having  her transported up to him and he would recommission REV for me if I covered the cost of labour etc

which I liked the sound of a lot, the only reason it never happened was well I only just met him and I was a bit apprehensive about sending my car off to someone who at the time was a stranger to me!

overtime I obviously got to know him better and in the end he kindly did the work for free as thanks for the help/work I did for him (although I do wonder if I had paid for it would have it been done to a better standard)

so im not against the idea of paying for work to be done far from it! just I dont think many people will touch a Model 70 sadly

[auntiemaryscanary]

43 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

so im not against the idea of paying for work to be done far from it! just I dont think many people will touch a Model 70 sadly

Not my vehicle and not my issue but I reckon it would be worth at least asking some garages what they could do/be prepared to do and at what rough cost. Got to be worth a try - my mechanic-ing skills are limited even and tho I've got a drive sending stuff to a (good) garage often occurs.

[Jikovron]

Tbf any tyre and exhausts place like kwikfit or national tyres etc would be well placed to swap wheel cylinders and renew the fluids/oils as its bread and butter in-out work, stuff a garage won't want is time intensive obsolete jobs perceived as low value like carb rebuild,decoking or valve grinding etc which is more hobbist/classic specialist stuff these days. 

tl:dr garages aren't fussed about the car, just the nature of the work. 

 

[Mally]

You would possibly be looking at £200/300  Kwikfit 'price though to change everything on the rear brakes, maybe plus brake pipes.

That's before the "You need shockers sir and the tyres are cracking.  In fact I'm not sure we can work on something with a wheel missing."

Whereas I'd swap the lot for £80 if you lived next door.

[Dobloseven]

A couple of points. If new handbrake cables were fitted, the drums would surely have been removed to fit them, and any issues with the mechanism noted and hopefully rectified. Also brakes do get warm in use, thats what friction does. Surprised the front one doesn't as much. Really, I can't think of a simpler braking system,so long as any possible parts could be sourced.Would guess like most seventies low volume vehicles, it's a collection of proprietary bits and pieces. Changing the fluids shouldn't be a problem, then you know it's been done. Pity you're not more local, I'd love to bring some tools and have a go at it. In fact I'm becoming very jealous and want one myself!

[dollywobbler]

AngryDicky - did your employer supply wheel cylinders for TWC? I can't remember the part number but the entire brake system is pretty much Herald/Reliant and probably a host of other cars.

My ham-fisted issues were mostly because I did not remove the hub flange. Apparently this is quite easy to do and gives much more working room for battling return springs (never fun!). 

But any decent garage should be able to work on the brakes. They're nothing out of the ordinary. I would advise them about the rear weight bias before they jack it up though.

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

A couple of points. If new handbrake cables were fitted, the drums would surely have been removed to fit them, and any issues with the mechanism noted and hopefully rectified. Also brakes do get warm in use, thats what friction does. Surprised the front one doesn't as much. Really, I can't think of a simpler braking system,so long as any possible parts could be sourced.Would guess like most seventies low volume vehicles, it's a collection of proprietary bits and pieces. Changing the fluids shouldn't be a problem, then you know it's been done. Pity you're not more local, I'd love to bring some tools and have a go at it. In fact I'm becoming very jealous and want one myself!

indeed Adam said he freed everything off but I dont think anything (aside from the handbrake cables) was replaced, so I think its just sized again, as AngryDick says who knows what the inside of the cylinders and pistons look like...

tis worth noting the rear wheels where warm despite the fact I managed to drive there and back without actually having to brake much at all (its all 20Mph zones around here)

its what I imagine driving an electric car with regenerative breaking is like LOL

3 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

AngryDicky - did your employer supply wheel cylinders for TWC? I can't remember the part number but the entire brake system is pretty much Herald/Reliant and probably a host of other cars.

My ham-fisted issues were mostly because I did not remove the hub flange. Apparently this is quite easy to do and gives much more working room for battling return springs (never fun!). 

But any decent garage should be able to work on the brakes. They're nothing out of the ordinary. I would advise them about the rear weight bias before they jack it up though.

Luckily im not too worried about getting parts, as in the parts stash is enough brake parts to completely overhaul REV's brakes, I made sure to check that (as the original plan was to poke away at things at the FoD)

and most of the brake parts are still relatively easy to source  

the brake slave cylinders are Girling 64673476 with a 0.75 Inch bore mostly shared with old fords from what I can tell

 

 

[barefoot]

You really need to find a helpful local garage as a matter of urgency.

Hippy xmas.

[Yoss]

12 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

A couple of points. If new handbrake cables were fitted, the drums would surely have been removed to fit them, and any issues with the mechanism noted and hopefully rectified. 

If, as suggested, the rear wheel cylinders are shared with Triumphs then no you wouldn't have to remove the drum to replace the cable. There's a small bracket that sticks through a hole in the backplate to which the cable is attached. Though I'm being picky here as any decent mechanic would take the drums off at the same time anyway to see what was going on.

The aforementioned bracket is attached to the wheel cylinder and the whole cylinder slides back and forth either through hydraulic pressure or from the handbrake. This is the biggest problem area with the Triumph rear brakes. That whole area has to be kept clean and greased (copper grease) to allow the cylinder to slide freely otherwise it will slide once then stay there. The cylinder is held in place with two spring clips on the outside of the backplate. These also get gunked up as they are outside and exposed to the elements. 

You can remove these two spring clips and the drum and the wheel cylinder will move enough to clean out all the brake dust/road dirt/general gunk without having to touch the hydraulics or brake shoes. If you can avoid removing the shoes and the annoying springs that hold them together that is a definite bonus. 

This all applies to my Triumph 1300, I assume the Herald is similar if not identical. 

[Zelandeth]

I am 99.99997% sure that it was Reliant Kitten that I cross referenced to when I bought my wheel cylinders and they looked to be an exact match.  Looking up the paperwork wasn't helpful as it simply states "wheel cylinder" so doesn't tell me anything!  Got them from the eBay shop of MEV Spares, who I've had a few things from now and can't fault at all, silly fast delivery too.

As others have said - and I did back when you were still looking for a car - you absolutely need to find a classic friendly garage in your neck of the woods if you're going to run a car like this.  That may well mean having to reach out to local classic car clubs on Facebook etc, as it is going to need continual fettling, and with the greatest of respect your disabilities are simply going to mean some of that isn't something you can do.  Especially with how pig awkward some jobs on the Invacar are because it's such a small car.

I've been really lucky with TPA, but even so I've spent plenty of hours standing on my head swearing at the car sorting out silly little things here and there.

As far as brakes go, every single piece of pipework has been changed.  Front Flexi is a NOS one which was one of the few spares I got with KPL that was actually serviceable, but everything else has been changed.  Of course I made the job more complicated because I switched to dual circuit brakes, but the job needed done anyway.  The metal pipes were all well past it, and as you may recall one of the rear axle lines blew out the first time I tried to bleed the system.  REV may well be a lot better in that respect having not spent a decade sitting in a boggy field though.  Of course I've no idea how long TPA might have been sitting around prior to the cull in 2003, so she could have been sitting around even longer than we know of.

Wheel cylinders I only actually had to change one - and that was because the bleed nipple sheared, it was actually working okay...I changed its partner purely as a bit of future proofing and because I prefer to do any brake work in axle sets.  The front one is still original as the front brake has never given me the slightest bit of trouble and worked fine from day one without a hint of sticking - which was a surprise given the master cylinder had been open to the elements with a smashed reservoir for goodness only knows how long. 

Biggest improvement I found with my brakes in terms of freeing things up was making sure that the area of the back plate that the shoes slide against is perfectly clean and has a touch of grease on.  Any drag there will tend to cause the shoes to hang up.  Likewise the area around the clips holding the cylinder in as if I remember right the whole thing "floats" with relation to the backplate itself. Those clips are a bugger to get back in place too!

It really would be helpful to get a breakdown of what has and hasn't been done at this point, as the last thing you want to end up doing is breaking yourself repeating work that's already been done. 

If I didn't absolutely hate driving in London so much I'd be more than willing to pop down to help out now and then.  Sadly driving inside the M25 is right up there in my top ten of most hated experiences in my life.

[LightBulbFun]

23 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

As others have said - and I did back when you were still looking for a car - you absolutely need to find a classic friendly garage in your neck of the woods if you're going to run a car like this.  That may well mean having to reach out to local classic car clubs on Facebook etc, as it is going to need continual fettling, and with the greatest of respect your disabilities are simply going to mean some of that isn't something you can do.  Especially with how pig awkward some jobs on the Invacar are because it's such a small car.

Oh yeah I have mentioned several times in the past that I had (and still do) planned to find a suitable garage, as I know there are number of things I cant do on my own

its just I had planned for it to be a gradual thing after REV was made road worthy, drive around, get talking with the classic car owners of the area, figure out what garages they use, go to one see what they say with regards to the car, see what I think of the garage and go from there etc

I was not expecting to have REV arrive with work incomplete in the middle of winter and now having to find some way of sorting her ASAP

and there is the problem of getting her to the garage in the first place when she is immobile and getting myself back

I do have home start recovery but it specifically says to the nearest garage and Im not sure how they go about figuring that out and what say I might have over where they take it, I dont want them to drop her off at a garage that only deals in moderns and has no idea what they are doing with her so end up doing more damage then good (although in regards to the general break down recovery service it says I can have the vehicle taken to a location of my choice, so in theory if I break down at the chip shop I could have her taken back to the FoD LOL)

23 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

As far as brakes go, every single piece of pipework has been changed.  Front Flexi is a NOS one which was one of the few spares I got with KPL that was actually serviceable, but everything else has been changed.  Of course I made the job more complicated because I switched to dual circuit brakes, but the job needed done anyway.  The metal pipes were all well past it, and as you may recall one of the rear axle lines blew out the first time I tried to bleed the system.

yeah the exact same happened with the front brake line on @Mrs6C's Model 70 at the FoD which makes me all the more nervous!

hence why id also like to replace everything for new (and also ideally switch to dual circuit brakes like you have done, but thats just something that would be nice to have!)

23 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

It really would be helpful to get a breakdown of what has and hasn't been done at this point, as the last thing you want to end up doing is breaking yourself repeating work that's already been done. 

indeed, I was supposed to get a list of what was and was not done, but nothing has been sent so far

however from what I can gather, she has had made and been fitted with a new fuel tank, a new battery, new external lights and horn, a new indicator stalk and headlamp switch, work done to reinforced the crack in the front bumper and secure the previously limp wing mirror, new hand brake cables fitted from my parts stash to get the handbrake operational, and finally an engine oil/filter change and her tyre pressures set

work done to her since she came home, drained excess oil from engine and topped back up to appropriate level, offside door front bobbin rollers replaced to stop it falling off, battery earth strap replaced, electric fuel pump fitted, to substitute for the failed mechanical pump, battery charged, and fuse holder in engine bay cleaned to make charging system do its job again, and throttle cable routed properly at long last to stop it sticking on

work she still needs doing, the brakes clearly need a good going over, the twist grip still need replacing and either the fuel gauge replaced  to match the sender unit or fuel sender replaced to match the existing gauge

id also still like to do a full service, another engine oil and filter change dropping the oil strainer this time, and changing the oil in the gearbox and diff

(speaking of the oil strainer, I presume the gasket on it is not reusable and as such im wondering what thickness of gasket paper do you use when making up a new gasket for it?)

adam also mentioned something about play in the front wheel bearings, but I dont know if anything was done about that or not, (and theres also the matter of the exhaust blow)