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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, Chips got! :)


LightBulbFun

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I checked the butterfly at the carburettor, with the cable disconnected, and it easily opened and closed (with the spring fixed to the air filter, as @Zelandeth pictured) when I moved it with my finger. For the throttle cable, it seems to be free but tight along its length because I disconnected the twist grip and pulled the inner cable and @LightBulbFun saw that the throttle butterfly open and close. The twist grip is free to rotate when off the handle bar. But I did notice it was fixed too far up the handlebar, by the bend which it rubbed against, so I moved it more towards the end, and it is now free to rotate. With it fixed to the handle bar, and the cable hanging loose, the throttle appears to work, but it is stiff, and the return is sluggish. If it is held up, like Zel’s pic, it does not return properly and the throttle remains open. As @Mrs6C says, fix it at close intervals, but I would like to see the path it should take from one end to the other, perhaps pictures of the route on TPA from Zel and TWC from @dollywobbler would help. I think once we find a path without any tight bends that might be the answer.

For the fuel gauge, I have found several Veglia Borlettis and connection diagrams, but none exactly like this. At the sender, one is for a switch to earth for the low fuel light, so the light connected to the + terminal goes there. The other two are the level resistor, but not sure of which is what colour, or how the connections go. Further investigation to come.

Not sure if REV has a voltage stabiliser like that, it would be mounted on the back of the speedo, but I cant see one in Claire s pic.

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1 hour ago, bobdisk said:

Not sure if REV has a voltage stabiliser like that, it would be mounted on the back of the speedo, but I cant see one in Claire s pic.

I think the picture @Mrs6C used i think is just a generic picture to show how dash gauges are mounted normally :) (I mean Im not aware of any Model 70's with a red dashboard!)

from what I can tell REV will have one somewhere as she is a later Model 70 and from March 1976 onwards they gained a stabiliser

image.thumb.png.f685c4e132757f6333abff13d5e90670.png

 

Model 70's from Production start, to March 1976 had gauges like so, note the chrome surround and small speedo

image.png

then in March 1976 the Model 70 got a bit of an internal face lift, among a host of other changes (like a rollover bar and a headlining) they changed to different gauges with black surrounds and a much larger speedo, so the fuel gauge was also changed (still a smiths just a different type) and this is when the fuel stabiliser was also made a part of things

IMG_0500.thumb.JPG.081f5faf9caca03b465fe2fc6ac7299d.JPG

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2 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

i think is just a generic picture to show how dash gauges are mounted normally

That's correct. The photo was of a Triumph Spitfire speedometer and the drawing was a set of Spitfire gauges from the Rimmer Bros online catalogue. They were to illustrate how round gauges like these were often fitted.

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@Mrs6C,  Ahhh!! I see !! 

If you look at REVs picture, you can see the green throttle cable hanging low, that is the position it almost wants to work. Fix it higher, and the problems come.

@LightBulbFunForgot to mention REVs charge light problem:  There is a large relay somewhere to operate the starter side of the Dynastart. You can hear it click when you operate the starter with the key. It could be the contacts in that. I did notice a voltage regulator in REV positioned on the chassis near the rear offside light.  That is the most likely place for the fault.  There will be a type number on the top. It looks like the Bosch one on the Daf. The Daf has a conventional starter and dynamo, so they are probably different types, but in the same box.  Those are places to look for REVs charging problems. I will have to look at the circuit to see how it works, probably similar to the NSU, which also had a Dynastart. 

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Just went and grabbed a couple of updated photos to confirm the interior routing of the cable on TPA

IMG_20211123_115412.thumb.jpg.075a10f772fb38802e569d6c5542ba9c.jpg

The cable used to run through the circular cutout in the brake actuator yoke, but that caused the cable to be pulled too taught at times, particularly when reversing into parking spaces. 

IMG_20211123_115429.thumb.jpg.9b982d2784d84eac5ab95764f5342c77.jpg

Did try snapping a couple of photos under the car but you could see everything in them *except* the throttle cable, I'll need to try another time from the other side I guess.

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@Zelandeththanks for pics! @LightBulbFun, REVs indicator switch is on the right, so to get the cables straight path as TPA, it will have to be moved over to the left side.  If you remember, the lever got in the way of the cable.  I think REVs cable goes through a hole in the vertical panel(does it?) so it should be moved to where TPA has it. Both of those changes should make a favourable difference by making a looser bend. Next is to look at the path underneath the car.

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Guessing the twist grip is a contemporary motorcycle part which would normally be used with a much shorter, less convoluted cable. Would running the cable inside the car simplify fitting, particularly with LBFs restricted working facilities?Another thought, would one of those dash top  solar panels help keep the battery topped up? It seems the electrics are marginal, with little scope for upgrading, so every amp would help. Notice a fellow down the road is using one on his GT86, the modern one, which he parks on the road. Just coming up with a few suggestions, as like everyone else, I want to see a chipshop photo of REV!

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25 minutes ago, CaptainBoom said:

If it helps you out Dez, I’m heading up your way on Saturday afternoon and back again in the evening. If you would like the battery taken upstairs I can do that to save your back. 

ooh yes please! that would be very much appreciated! and gives me a few days to rest up :)

I think you already have my details from all the lightbulbs and computer bits you have very kindly sent me overtime! but ill PM you my number so you can contact me quickly if needed and let me know if theres anymore details you need!

 

I have to say I am very thankful to all, especially recently with all the fellow forum members that have come to my aid! it is seriously appreciated! 

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44 minutes ago, Harriytait said:

Saw on YouTube today.

https://youtu.be/QjyNyfVgqz8

Oooh! I had been looking for that video again for ages! I found it way back when in the early days on here it was how I discovered the YVX-L block of Invacar Model 70's 

thanks for finding/sharing it again :) 

On 18/11/2019 at 21:22, LightBulbFun said:

but the video must have been pulled sometime back and only re-uploaded yesterday!

tis also a good video for showing a Villiers (AC Acedes Mk14 Model 67 in this case) machine in action and how reverse on them works :) 

I remember being confused at the control scheme I thought by the way the lady was grabbing the tiller bar with 2 hands it must of had bicycle controls, but I now know that she was just grabbing the tiller bar with both hands!

(pretty much all Ministry Villiers machines where Tiller control regardless of how many operable hands/arms you had, so it was common for people with 2 functioning hands to grab the tiller bar with both hands)

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https://www.facebook.com/groups/1964532800535954/posts/3160096840979538

image.thumb.png.4702c82cf93f69346ceff2af6b15f7f9.png

Ooooh Hello there!

now question is, is this a load of Model 70's (or AC Model 67's? you never know! given we can only see the roofs) that need rescuing, or is it just @st185cs's lot that have been papped again like last time LOL

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 Many thanks to @CaptainBoom who came today  and very kindly removed REV's battery for me despite the awful weather! as I predicted it was a right faff to get it out so im glad and thankful I did not have to do it alone!

 I have it on charge on the balcony now :) standing voltage under no load was about 12.5V or there about hopefully it will charge up alright!

 

and I took the opportunity to check and correct REV's tyre pressures with a portable tyre pressure inflator and gauge I got recently from amazon this one for those curious https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B071XTHWQF 

it looks like Adam was able to set all the tyre pressures to how they should be which im pleased about and only 2 of the 3 needed minimal correcting :) 

for those wondering 1 rear was good at 22PSI the other rear was at about 20.5PSI and so topped that back up to 22 and the front was down to 15 so topped that back up to 17 PSI, will be interesting to see how they change overtime! 

 

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5 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

 Many thanks to @CaptainBoom who came today  and very kindly removed REV's battery for me despite the awful weather! as I predicted it was a right faff to get it out so im glad and thankful I did not have to do it alone!

 I have it on charge on the balcony now :) standing voltage under no load was about 12.5V or there about hopefully it will charge up alright!

 

and I took the opportunity to check and correct REV's tyre pressures with a portable tyre pressure inflator and gauge I got recently from amazon this one for those curious https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B071XTHWQF 

it looks like Adam was able to set all the tyre pressures to how they should be which im pleased about and only 2 of the 3 needed minimal correcting :) 

for those wondering 1 rear was good at 22PSI the other rear was at about 20.5PSI and so topped that back up to 22 and the front was down to 15 so topped that back up to 17 PSI, will be interesting to see how they change overtime! 

 

No problems, I'm glad of the excuse to get out for a bit!

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Spent a little time this morning and  managed to trial fit everything of importance to the chassis, thankfully everything lined up and fitted straight up . My friend James has been heavily involved with making the chassis so I'm not surprised it is bang on as for a man of his talents it's really a minor project. Here are a couple of pictures of the chassis and one also of one of James' more involved projects, a full scale 3 ton Ruston Proctor steam  tractor that he built from surviving drawings of an engine that sadly never made it into preservation. In future is is planned that Brian comes with us and the Ruston when we steam off on the road to rallies, not only can he be displayed but also can provide a convenient way to get to the shop for Cider supplies!

IMG_4644.JPG

IMG_4645.JPG

60819175_10162245686505497_722869246756913152_n.jpg

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37 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

Spent a little time this morning and  managed to trial fit everything of importance to the chassis, thankfully everything lined up and fitted straight up . My friend James has been heavily involved with making the chassis so I'm not surprised it is bang on as for a man of his talents it's really a minor project. Here are a couple of pictures of the chassis and one also of one of James' more involved projects, a full scale 3 ton Ruston Proctor steam  tractor that he built from surviving drawings of an engine that sadly never made it into preservation. In future is is planned that Brian comes with us and the Ruston when we steam off on the road to rallies, not only can he be displayed but also can provide a convenient way to get to the shop for Cider supplies!

IMG_4644.JPG

IMG_4645.JPG

60819175_10162245686505497_722869246756913152_n.jpg

wow thats amazing! its awesome to see Brians chassis rolling for the first time :) must have been really satisfying! 

not long to go now! given you got most of the bodywork already sorted! its pretty much just* put it all together again!

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6 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

Spent a little time this morning and  managed to trial fit everything of importance to the chassis, thankfully everything lined up and fitted straight up

I'm not surprised! You have done a fantastic job there. It is great that you have photographed and recorded the assembly along the way as well, so that I can see how it all hangs together for mine!

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On 27/11/2021 at 15:40, LightBulbFun said:

 I have it on charge on the balcony now :) standing voltage under no load was about 12.5V or there about hopefully it will charge up alright!

 

alright I think I got REV's battery charge now :) 

standing voltage now is 13.5V with no load which I think is pretty good and nothing exploded so I will take that! 

 

it was quite interesting tracking how it behaved/charged I have included some notes bellow so to speak of my observations for those curious

 

I dont have a battery charger but what I do have as an electronics hobbyist is a DC bench-top power supply so what I did was after some research on exactly how you go about charging a lead acid battery, was I charged it from that :) 

I set the current limit to 10% of the rated battery capacity its a 35Ah battery in this case (037 type to be exact) so I set the current limit on the PSU to 3.5A (so the battery cannot draw more then 3.5A from the power supply) so it will just sit there there at whatever voltage allows 3.5A to be drawn this is known as constant current mode

and I I set the max voltage the PSU can output to 14.4V, this means the Power supply will keep trying to push 3.5A into the battery, until the voltage hits 14.4V where it will then stop to not exceed that voltage limit and the battery will draw whatever current it wants to at 14.4V (as long as it does not exceed 3.5A) this is known as constant voltage mode

then I left it charging all of yesterday keeping an eye on it periodically,  until I went to bed where I obviously disconnected it! then today put it back on charge at about 12PM where it finished charging about 30 minutes ago :) 

from what I have researched a lead acid battery is generally considered charged once its current draw decreases to 1% of its rated capacity and thats 0.35A in this case which it hit just a few minutes ago (well actually I disconnected it at 0.28A because I was on the phone! but im sure it will be fine)

 

it will be interesting to see how it does in the morning too, I noticed yesterday I disconnected it it was drawing 0.95A at 14.4V (with a standing no load voltage of 13V) but when I reconnected it this morning it starting charging at 2.4A and then fairly quickly dropped down to 1.4A before slowly tapering off as it did prior till fully charged

so I wonder if it lost some charge over night or this is what lead acid batteries do? its also worth mentioning it is obviously pretty cold outside! not freezing but still single digits so I wonder if the fact that the battery was then at room temperature when I reconnected it back up to charge had an effect?

 

its also interesting to note when I first stuck it on charge yesterday after removing it from REV, the battery had a brief period of high resistance where the voltage shot up to 14.4V and the current was only 2.35A or so, before it then settled down to the 3.5A at 13V or so (which then as you would expect slowly rose to 14.4V and stayed at that voltage as the current slowly dropped ) it would be interesting to know what this initial high resistance was about? I wonder if it was just some sulfate accumulation being "burnt off" from the plates or such?

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8 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

Not actually an invalid car, but AC disguised their Petite as one, to do their R&D trials on Britain's roads!

 

indeed I have seen that a few times and have always been curious how exactly they disguised it as an IC  (keep in mind that the AC Petite Predates the AC Acedes invalid Tricycle which on the surface does look a lot like a Petite,, so they could not have simply disguised it as one of those)

its all the more interesting given the AC All Weather Tricycle based Buckland Runabout that was recently discovered a few months ago :) 

On 16/08/2021 at 18:29, LightBulbFun said:

speaking of 3 wheelers! :)

 

I was recently contacted by Mr @barrett himself as in the archive of his he came across this rather interesting advert/vehicle and wondered if I knew anything about it

20210811_154553.jpg

and I did not, however I found it very fascinating as it very much looked like a regular car version of the AC All Weather Invalid tricycle

and immediately made think of this British Pathe video on the AC All weather Tricycle

where they do mention that a regular car version was in development at the time

I had always thought they where referring to the AC petite, but perhaps they where actually talking about the Buckland runabout

and then I did a bit of googling and found this online which is interesting as its like Barrett's but does not have cancelled across it

47065198711_55801e44a8_o.jpg

and then further to this of course I got talking to Stuart and we discussed things a bit, somewhat unsurprisingly, Stuart did already know of the Buckland, but again with few details

but what we do know is quite interesting

 we are pretty sure that the AC All Weather tricycle came first and that the Buckland runabout is development of it, rather then it potentially  being the other way round as all the stuff we can find on the Buckland is from 1951-1952

where as the AC All weather Tricycle was already on the road in 1949 (I did wonder at first because the Buckland looks like a much more crude machine with its lack of front end bodywork, but perhaps that was done as a cost cutting measure?) 

it looks like the Buckland was introduced curiously at the 1952 Invalid tricycle association rally and was talked about in the September 1952 issue of Magic carpet

where they specifically said that the chassis was that used in the AC invalid tricycle, but that a choice of 2 engines, a Villiers 350cc engine with Electric starting or a Coventry Victor 350cc with Manual starting

(which is interesting on 2 fronts as the AC All Weather Tricycle used a 250cc BSA engine, perhaps they wanted a slightly beefier engine for the full on road car version, and its interesting as the Villiers option sounds a lot like what ended up in the AC petite)

stuart then did a bit of digging as he was sure he did a write up on the Buckland for the RUMCar magazine and indeed he did, here are the relevant excerpts from the RUMCar Magazine Autumn and Winter 2010 :) 

image.thumb.png.b05bcb3624fa888bb62d7dce16d66422.png

image.thumb.png.9888836e25b8d5041d2375e2067d8f86.png

(Note NAP303 is a typo its supposed to be NAR303)

all in all its been quite fascinating to find out that AC did try and develop the AC All Weather Tricycle into a full blown car and to find out there was a missing link between the AC All Weather Tricycle and the AC petite

its like a predecessor to the Model 70 based AC Town cars :) 

it is also interesting to hear that It was Buckland themselves who where proposing it rather then AC

I wonder just how many examples ended up being made and if any survive somewhere!

it is also worth noting that it seems a lot of 1 off special vehicles etc where for some registered as invalid carriages back in the day!

for example the Who-mobile used in old episodes of Dr Who was apparently registered as one and so was the Lotus 51R!

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17254/lot/360/?category=list

image.thumb.png.20a2aace67e222ca86fdbc8916f6fb59.png

so I do wonder was the AC petite really disguised as an invalid carriage (ie was it fitted with an AC All Weather Tricycle Body)  or was it just simply registered as one?

 

BTW as a Side note Yesterday was Dolly's Your Model 70's 45th birthday :) 

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Many thanks to @CaptainBoom who came by once more to help with me REV :) 

he managed to refit the battery and we even managed to solve the charging issue :) 

theres an inline fuse on the main thick red wire coming from the Dynastart to the regulator box and I had a feeling that might of been causing the issue given the rest of the fuses have given me grief in the past, so we removed it, cleaned up the contacts in the fuse holder which where quite dirty, gave them a spray with some contact cleaner and im pleased to report that it had indeed solved the charging issue :) im glad it was just that a nice easy fix and I know where to look incase it plays up again!, she now charges at a healthy 13.8V~ once you get the engine speed suitably up

I do still at some point want to clean up all the connections on the regulator box and replace all the crusty spade terminals with new ones, for peace of mind but now I can do that in my own time without any urgency  

we also had a play with the throttle cable but no luck there sadly, I however did remember to grab this picture 

image.thumb.png.655c9fe3d0005c5f0f5e94da2d769b8c.png

which shows nicely the problem I have in fitting a new twist grip, every single other twist grip I have tried has its outer cable hole like the size on the right

but the outer cable/ferrule  fitted to REV is skinny like the hole on the left, and I have not been able to find another twist grip with the same setup/thinner outer cable hole

(I also notice that there a hole in the left there I wonder if some sort of pin or such is supposed to go in there to clamp the outers ferrule in place as otherwise there is nothing to hold the ferrule in place at the Twist grip end) 

if anyone knows what this skinny throttle cable outer is about do let me know! if I can find a new twist grip that matches with it then id like to try that first just to fully rule out the knackered twist grip from things

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17 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

every single other twist I have tried has its outer cable hole like the size on the right

How about using a reducing bush, like one of these?
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/mechanical-power-transmission/bushes-collars/reducing-bushes/

Measure up the internal and external diameters you need and look for one online.

Also, you can check to see if the cable will pull cleanly and behave properly without the twist grip involved, by taking the twist grip off and pulling on the end of the cable using something else as a handle to grip the little metal cylinder, like a wooden clothespeg. I'm not suggesting you drive like this, but you should be able to sit in neutral and try different amounts of pull and see if the inner cable moves cleanly and returns to its rest position via the throttle spring, without the twist grip involved.

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7 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

How about using a reducing bush, like one of these?
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/mechanical-power-transmission/bushes-collars/reducing-bushes/

Measure up the internal and external diameters you need and look for one online.

Also, you can check to see if the cable will pull cleanly and behave properly without the twist grip involved, by taking the twist grip off and pulling on the end of the cable using something else as a handle to grip the little metal cylinder, like a wooden clothespeg. I'm not suggesting you drive like this, but you should be able to sit in neutral and try different amounts of pull and see if the inner cable moves cleanly and returns to its rest position via the throttle spring, without the twist grip involved.

Yeah @CaptainBoom is planning to kindly send me some washers and a roll of PTFE tape to see if I can bulk up the ferrule on the end of the throttle cable so it sits snuggly in the larger hole of the new twist grip I have :) (or use a washer on the end of the ferrule for a similar effect to stop it going down the larger hole)

BTW @Zelandeth I noticed while looking at your pictures that you seem to have some sort of rubber boot? where the throttle cable meets the twist grip, what is that about exactly?

just curious as I noticed it, but its not something included with the twist grip set you fitted, and Im wondering is it something im missing?

https://www.classicbikeshop.co.uk/twist-grip-throttle-set-with-beston-grips.html

On 23/11/2021 at 12:04, Zelandeth said:

Just went and grabbed a couple of updated photos to confirm the interior routing of the cable on TPA

IMG_20211123_115412.thumb.jpg.075a10f772fb38802e569d6c5542ba9c.jpg

The cable used to run through the circular cutout in the brake actuator yoke, but that caused the cable to be pulled too taught at times, particularly when reversing into parking spaces. 

IMG_20211123_115429.thumb.jpg.9b982d2784d84eac5ab95764f5342c77.jpg

Did try snapping a couple of photos under the car but you could see everything in them *except* the throttle cable, I'll need to try another time from the other side I guess.

 

On 04/03/2021 at 22:21, Zelandeth said:

Package arrived this morning for TPA.

IMG_20210304_154225.thumb.jpg.7e2c6f8536aa3fc00c50f259d1162016.jpg

Installation was pretty straightforward...Though I still had to fabricate a cable end.  I think I just need to go to Speedy Cables or similar and just order a proper cable.  The issue seems to be that (unsurprisingly) the cable has a standard motorcycle type barrel connector at the handlebar end...but finding off the shelf motorbike throttle cables more than a couple of metres long is tricky - and this needs to be a touch over five metres long because of the routing.  As it is having trimmed away the frayed bit of cable I'm now down to literally millimetres to spare, and it's a bit frilly at the handlebar end so will likely fail again in the not too distant future. 

Nevertheless, it does mean that I've now got matching grips on the handlebars which looks SO much better.

IMG_20210304_170827.thumb.jpg.2e42407cfd9643917a84eee5814043c4.jpg

The throttle action is also way better...It always felt very much as though it wasn't attached to anything before, so you were never quite sure how much throttle you were applying - and I'm not 100% certain that I was ever actually getting full throttle as the old twist grip was distorted and binding up at several points in its travel.  New one is all metal so should hopefully fare better.

New grips are a good deal chunkier than the old ones which I think will be a good thing.

IMG_20210304_165831.thumb.jpg.7d3f89e2c4cf32069d6bf7c1f874d6bc.jpg

Will have to wait for a test drive to be certain, but just sitting in the garage it feels better I think.

 

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in other news, came across a couple interesting things :) 

first of all one for @quicksilver its a Kit Bashed AC Acedes Model 57 :) 

https://amodelrailway.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.html

unnamed.jpg.b99fee79bd0bb5ae97e2c63956147888.jpg

I love the attention to details especially with regards to the rear lights/indicator placement :) but its a shame they got the colour entirely wrong for a Model 57!

(but from what I can gather they where working off Black and white photos only)

 

and then I also found the source of the Crashed FOO179H Invacar Mk12 pictures :) 

https://www.bcthic.org/View_Archive?ODE3M3wxMjl8fHw=

goes to show that you dont instantly die a painful and agonising death if you get into an accident in an Invacar as most people would have you believe! (poor Invacar tho would have only been about year old!)

 

On 01/10/2021 at 19:58, LightBulbFun said:

I had not actually gotten round to posting it but @keef had made me aware of them last night :) 

heres some higher res versions :) I appreciate the heads up tho!

Poor Mk12, it held up surprisingly well given how flimsy/lightweight they are (granted I dont know what speed they where doing!)! I wonder who was at fault...

243962329_1455175774866132_2761645602504928871_n.thumb.jpeg.79f8b6f59e68afabf064d739ab20ec00.jpeg

243890195_1455175764866133_3680489957121266099_n.thumb.jpeg.dd31cd0ef4c1e5a3aa2c11f21277f57b.jpeg

 

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  • LightBulbFun changed the title to LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, Chips got! :)

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      Seat covers have been added since that photo was taken as it suffers from the usual rotting seat cloth problem that affects virtually all Estelles.

      Then we have possibly the world's scruffiest Sinclair C5...



      Realised when looking for this that I really need to get some more photos of the thing...I use it often enough after all! We have a dog who's half husky, so this is a really good way of getting him some exercise.

      Finally - again, I really need to take more photos of - we have the little Pug 107.



      Included for the sake of variety even if it's a bit mainstream! First (and probably to be the only) new car I've bought, and has been a cracking little motor and has asked for very little in return for putting up with nearly three years of Oxford-Milton Keynes commuter traffic, before finally escaping that fate when my housemate moved to a new job. Now it doesn't do many miles and is my default car for "when I've managed to break everything else."

      I'll fill in some more details tomorrow - I warn you though that I do tend to ramble...
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