Zel's Motoring Adventures...Volvo, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar & A Sinclair C5 - Updated 13/11.

[dollywobbler]

Your transmission seems much smoother, or maybe I'm just struggling to hear TWC's engine over the transmission!

[LightBulbFun]

@dollywobbler

I just noticed when going back through the project invacar videos for something

that TWC has a 32ICS3 carburettor fitted, which is very interesting because I have never actually seen a Model 70 fitted with an 32ICS3, all the Model 70's who's carbs I have seen have been 32ICS10's

(the Workshop manual engine section mentions a 32ICS3, however said engine section is just the english Steyr puch engine manual, its not Model 70 specific AFAIK) 

but I have wondered if early Model 70 where fitted with 32ICS3's this certainly leads credence to that (given The carb is from TWC's original  early, cartridge filter etc engine)

however I know the engine fitted to TWC now is the one pulled from TPA which in turn is from a 1976ish Model 70, and by that point they where fitted with 32ICS10's so I wonder if you have a carburettor miss match and thats whats causing performance issues? (if nothing else I bet it could benefit from a nice ultrasonic cleaning )

 

[worldofceri]

On the road to beige glory...

[dollywobbler]

8 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

@dollywobbler

I just noticed when going back through the project invacar videos for something

that TWC has a 32ICS3 carburettor fitted, which is very interesting because I have never actually seen a Model 70 fitted with an 32ICS3, all the Model 70's who's carbs I have seen have been 32ICS10's

(the Workshop manual engine section mentions a 32ICS3, however said engine section is just the english Steyr puch engine manual, its not Model 70 specific AFAIK) 

but I have wondered if early Model 70 where fitted with 32ICS3's this certainly leads credence to that (given The carb is from TWC's original  early cartridge filter etc engine)

however I know the engine fitted to TWC now is the one pulled from TPA which in turn is from a 1976ish Model 70, and by that point they where fitted with 32ICS10's so I wonder if you have a carburettor miss match and thats whats causing performance issues? (if nothing else I bet it could benefit from a nice ultrasonic cleaning )

 

Good point. TPA didn't have a carburettor at all.

[Zelandeth]

55 minutes ago, worldofceri said:

 

On the road to beige glory...

Yep...the weather has noticed you're on the way!

Perfect for unloading and looking over a new arrival!

[Zelandeth]

We have touchdown!

Safely tucked away behind the Xantia for now.

I'll see about having a look at things more closely this afternoon if the bloody rain ever stops!  Get a new battery picked up then see where we are.  Oh, and some new seat covers.  Apparently early BXs suffer from the same issues with decomposing seat fabric as Skoda Estelles do.

[spartacus]

I'll bet your neighbours are envious* of your fine collection!

Looking good.

[Zelandeth]

Initial 30 second findings when I was checking what battery I needed.

 

[] Distributor advance unit vacuum line isn't attached to anything.

[] What looks to be the fuel tank return line isn't attached.

[] Random 5mm pipe flapping around in the breeze which looks like it should attach to the hose stub on the back of the carb which is missing it's hose.

 

[] Several hose clips are loose.

[] Oil level is quite a bit too high and stinks of fuel.

[] Coolant is low.

Absolutely nothing which terrifies me at first glance.  Will be making a run to Costco this afternoon anyway so will grab a new battery while I'm there.  Need to double check what oil filter it takes but I *think* I probably have the right one in stock.  If I do it'll get an oil change before we go much further.

She desperately, desperately needs a good clean inside, out and under the bonnet.

[LightBulbFun]

yay! glad to see the BX has landed safely!

I look forward to seeing you diagnose and sorting out its issues in that way that you do  

now you can update the title from Citroen to Citroens!  

[vulgalour]

Look forward to the Zel Deep Dive on this one.  Engine bay looks like a pile of spaghetti, which seems to have been the style at the time.

[strangeangel]

Yep, those loose pipes are all as a result of our final fiddling session. I never got round to putting it back together, and then it had to be moved to where it was until yesterday.

 

[Zelandeth]

First up, as this BX has been on this forum for a few years, here are the links to its previous two threads...

Original Thread Here...

and the more recent one:

...From the previous owner to me, here.

-- -- --

Okay then, report of this afternoon's findings.

While rough around the edges, I reckon there's the makings of a good car here.  A good valet and a set of seat covers would go a long way to making it look better.

The bodywork seems astonishingly free of dents and scrapes for a 150K mile car.  Quite likely more than that actually given the exact same mileage is still showing from the previous MOT...

I'm betting the speedometer and/or odometer doesn't work.

Can you get more definitively 80s than these graphics?

The interior to be honest needs more help than the exterior and is looking a little sad.

Aside from just being generally grubby and dusty in that way all old, disused cars are the single biggest issue seems to be decomposing fabrics.  It looks like the seats and door cards all suffer from degradation under UV exposure in the same way as seats on Skoda Estelles do.

Not sure what state the front seats are in under the slip covers currently in place (which are fit only for the bin), but I'm guessing not great.  The cover seems to have been completely removed from the upright of the rear seat.

While that looks quite dramatic, the foam doesn't seem to be in too bad shape so re-covering them shouldn't be too difficult.

The cloth on the door cards is clearly going the same way.  They're flat though so should be easy enough to restore.  The headlining looks in honestly miraculously good shape.

Given the reputation these series 1 cars have for plastics with the structural integrity of cardboard there are surprisingly few things that are obviously broken.

All of the driver controls are present and aside from a few scratchy contacts due to disuse seem to work fine.

Looking forward to actually getting to use these in the real world. 

They will look a lot better once they've been given a good wipe over to get a bit of life back into them.

The engine bay is filthy but seemingly pretty clear of the usual maze of wiring hacks I'm kind of used to on cars of this age.

Mmm...crusty...

Cleaning this engine bay is going to be immensely satisfying...

First actual job for the day was to pick up and install a new battery as the one with the car seems to be past it.

My earlier glance around the engine bay revealed a few things disconnected due to prior investigation into poor running.

This one I initially thought was a vacuum line.

Turned out that this was actually hooked up to the fuel pump inlet...my guess folks were trying to run the car from a can.

Figuring this out was helpful as it meant I wasn't missing a hook-up point for the connection for the distributor vacuum advance unit.

Sadly the line for that was beyond help.

I didn't have nearly enough 3mm pipe in stock to run a whole new line...so being me it was time to improvise!

Two flexible elbows made line I did have, then connect the two with a bit of copper brake line.

Not pretty but will do the job.

With everything put back where it belonged it was time to do a bit of experimentation.  Before I went any further we did a bit of cranking to confirm we had oil pressure - we did.  Know she's been running relatively recently, but it's just one of those things I like to do with any car it's the first time I try to start it.

Didn't have any idea how much fuel was in the tank or how old it was, so stuck a can of nice ethanol free Esso Supreme 99 in the tank while I can still get it.

No interest in starting though, feeling like we weren't getting fuel.  Turns out that I was right, a blast of brake cleaner down the carb throat would immediately result in the engine springing to life, sounding quite sweet.  I was astonished how quickly the car sprang up to running height - far too used to the Activa which takes the best part of a minute to sort itself out.

After this started a good hour or two of experimentation while I tried to get the thing to take fuel.  However no matter what I did I couldn't get any fuel into the float bowl.

I've proved the line to the tank as I was able to pull a good stream of fuel through under vacuum.  Seems there's an issue with one/both of the check valves in the fuel pump so it's just not delivering any pressure whatsoever.  Most likely it's got gritty rusty particles in it.

Will pull the pump apart tomorrow for s clean and then see where we are.

Once it was dark I was able to have a look at how much of the dash lighting works.

Oh.

We have *one* working illumination lamp it looks...above the blanked off space above the fuel gauge.  Zip from anything else.  Yep...that will need to come apart then!

Speaking of lights that are out, noted that we have no light working in the hazard switch or dash tell tale for the fog lights.

The light in the glove box is working though!

The dash light for the indicators initially wasn't working, but I blinked and it came back to life without requiring any intervention.

The radio works... though a car with only an AM radio really tells you how long ago this car was made and that it wasn't a high trim level!

Things which so far I've found don't work/have issues.

[] Fuel pump doesn't.

[] Dash lighting 99% dead.

[] Fog light tell tale dead.

[] Fuel gauge showing nothing... though there may just not be enough in the tank.

[] Heater blower inoperative.  Doesn't seem to pull any current so hopefully just sticky brushes.

[] Slight blow from exhaust somewhere towards the rear it sounded like.  Looks brand new so probably just needs a clamp given a tweak.

Expect more tomorrow.  Hopefully the fuel pump will respond to a good clean out.

If the folks working on this car have been fighting a low fuel pressure issue all along they could have been chasing their tails for a while.  It's helpful in that it now won't start at all as it gives me a solid fault to hunt down rather than hunting a random intermittent issue!

Cautiously optimistic at this stage.  She sounded sweet when she was running, even though it was only on brake cleaner!

Proof she has run though as the suspension has raised.

Watch this space!

[LightBulbFun]

14 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

The bodywork seems astonishingly free of dents and scrapes for a 150K mile car.  Quite likely more than that actually given the exact same mileage is still showing from the previous MOT...

while I dont know the full history of this car (tho I have skimmed through its previous thread recently and in the past)

I do wonder if its ever seen the Open Road in the past 20 years?

because although it had an MOT in 2010, its showing as Untaxed since 1997! so perhaps the odometer is not actually broken? (although both the fail and the pass a few days later are showing the same milage, but I do wonder if it passed an MOT in 2010 why it was never taxed etc)

BTW im curious if there are any special notes on the V5?, like "declared new at first registration" or such?

because as you may have noticed she is a 1984 car but registered in 1986, but she does not have any used before date of first registration or import markers etc that would say she is an import or such

however normally when you have new old stock sitting around in the dealer they just get registered as a new car (so would show up as year of manufacture 1986 rather then 1984)

but this one is down as 1984 and is on an appropriate 1984 Age related plate, so im curious as to what happened there   registered as a new car but someone went out of their way to make sure the Year of manufacture was correct!

 

 

otherwise happy to see things are looking good so far!  

[vulgalour]

Good luck with the investigation.  Sometimes, these things just need a totally fresh set of eyes on them.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Looks promising so far. Have you got a link to the previous chapters with the car on here? I have read bits and pieces but can't remember the full story on how the car wafted into the fold in the first place. 

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Looks promising so far. Have you got a link to the previous chapters with the car on here? I have read bits and pieces but can't remember the full story on how the car wafted into the fold in the first place. 

Thanks for reminding me!  I meant to link those at the start of today's main post - I've gone back and edited to include them now.  Thanks!

[Zelandeth]

Really want to get some tinkering time with the BX however today is proving annoyingly busy...and now the rain is here.

Last two instruments arrived for TPA though.  Not wired up yet but have dropped them into place.

Doesn't this look better than the cheap modern tat I originally had fitted?

Yes I will clean everything once the wiring is done.  No point yet as they will all need to come out again for that.

Location seems a good blend between out of the way and clearly visible.

My garage is about a worst case scenario where reflections are concerned because of the lighting.  If I have issues with that on the road I can adjust the angle of the bracket a bit as required.

[Zelandeth]

Further BX tinkering has occurred.  For all of 45 minutes before I ran out of daylight.

Having stripped down and thoroughly cleaned the fuel pump (it wasn't bad) I think I have to conclude we have a diff pump.

Best I can tell one of the valves is damaged or the diaphragm has a pinhole I can't detect.  It just doesn't seem to be able to generate any decent pressure.  I've checked again and can get a solid flow of fuel from the tank under vacuum, so this pump looks to be to blame.

I did note that the oil smells quite strongly of petrol, I had put that down initially to the reported miss and lack of a decent run in forever, but if the pump has been leaking internally that could also explain it.

Will do a bit of digging later on and (assuming I can find one) will get a replacement ordered. 

There is at least some electrical oddness going on too.  The clock resets every time you turn the ignition off, so looks as though the permanent 12V feed for that has gone walkies somewhere.  Also there's no side light position on the switch - first click takes it straight to dipped beam.  Would have thought 84 would have been early enough to escape the need for dim/dip devices wouldn't it?

[egg]

I think the OEM part number is 1450-81

link

[beko1987]

Crikey that's got filthy inside since me and @Ghosty gave it a professional valet whilst not drunk*... 

[Zelandeth]

30 minutes ago, egg said:

I think the OEM part number is 1450-81

link

Hmm...that looks to be for an injected version...no fancy in tank pumps with the humble 14RE.  Just this little mechanical one.

I think this is the right one...albeit a slightly different design.

15 minutes ago, beko1987 said:

Crikey that's got filthy inside since me and @Ghosty gave it a professional valet whilst not drunk*... 

It never ceases to amaze me how grubby cars can get while sitting idle. 

The van hasn't been in hibernation for long at all and the cab is already covered in enough dust that it looks like it's been there a year.

A new set of seat covers will make a big difference!

[Six-cylinder]

It looks the same as my Visa GT and LNA.

There seems to be several for sale on Ebay including an original Citroen one.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MECHANICAL-FUEL-PUMP-for-CITROEN-VISA-1-0-1-1-1-2-1-4-from-78-88-QH/122587278643?hash=item1c8ac56d33:g:NfIAAOSw0QlgKsNM

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Citroen-BX-14-Visa-Fuel-Pump-91-539-941-145034/154330548649?epid=1909488000&hash=item23eed149a9:g:KZsAAOSwkz1ejbL7

[Zelandeth]

Seems we both found the same listings pretty much simultaneously, independently!  Just came back on here to say that I've now got a fuel pump on the way, to find a couple of the links I'd just been to listed!

I've actually gone for an aftermarket one this time, simply because I've had very mixed results in the past with NOS parts involving diaphragms...so we'll see what turns up. 

I'm thinking that at the weekend I might borrow the electric one from TPA (one bolt and two hose connections which I deliberately made easy to get to!) just to see if I can actually get the car running for more than a few seconds at a time.  Would just be a pretty easy way of proving the rest of the fuel system is sound and that I've not got some strange fault with the needle valve stopping the float bowl filling or something as well.

Oh, and having now read the handbook, I need to add the overheat warning light to the list of warning lights that doesn't work.

Am I right in thinking that the indicator lights at the bottom of the dash (above where the rev counter would be if I had one) activated by the button with the little funnel symbol on are to do with an economy indicator?  No mention is made of those in the handbook.  Have highlighted the section in question on the photo below.

Said handbook looks to be a 1985 printing, so wondering if there might be changes between my car and then - No mention is made in the handbook for instance of a low oil level indicator, though I can *see* one in the photo above...no guarantee it's wired to anything though!

[LightBulbFun]

2 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

I'm thinking that at the weekend I might borrow the electric one from TPA (one bolt and two hose connections which I deliberately made easy to get to!) just to see if I can actually get the car running for more than a few seconds at a time.  Would just be a pretty easy way of proving the rest of the fuel system is sound and that I've not got some strange fault with the needle valve stopping the float bowl filling or something as well.

was thinking just this  I was going to say if the fuel pump situation becomes a PITA can you rob electric one from TPA, and then just reinstate TPAs original mechanical setup

I know her or well KPLs! pump was broken, but I cant imagine it would be too hard to get a replacement mechanical pump given the following the Steyr puch engine has!

or just see if you can find a 2nd electric pump of the same make and Model (since whatever it is, clearly is working well!)

[Six-cylinder]

12 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Seems we both found the same listings pretty much simultaneously, independently!  Just came back on here to say that I've now got a fuel pump on the way, to find a couple of the links I'd just been to listed!

I've actually gone for an aftermarket one this time, simply because I've had very mixed results in the past with NOS parts involving diaphragms...so we'll see what turns up. 

I was a little concerned how old the genuine Citroen one was and if the rubber bits were still ok.

You set me thinking and we have 3 cars with that pump. When I found a QH one for £19.21 including a 15% discount code if I bought before midnight I just went for it as a spare.

[Zelandeth]

29 minutes ago, Six-cylinder said:

I was a little concerned how old the genuine Citroen one was and if the rubber bits were still ok.

You set me thinking and we have 3 cars with that pump. When I found a QH one for £19.21 including a 15% discount code if I bought before midnight I just went for it as a spare.

Not a bad plan!  Don't imagine it would be impossible to rebuild one either if you could find the right material.

56 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

was thinking just this  I was going to say if the fuel pump situation becomes a PITA can you rob electric one from TPA, and then just reinstate TPAs original mechanical setup

I know her or well KPLs! pump was broken, but I cant imagine it would be too hard to get a replacement mechanical pump given the following the Steyr puch engine has!

or just see if you can find a 2nd electric pump of the same make and Model (since whatever it is, clearly is working well!)

Not worrying too much about it really.  I'm quite happy with the electric pump setup, especially with it not being a car that I'm using every day.  Should be less prone to potential vapour lock issues in hot weather too.

I really should just get a pump rebuild kit for it though.  I couldn't ever *find* anything amiss with the original pump, but just kept having issues with air in the fuel line...The electric pump was originally fitted just to try to prove the pump as the culprit, but the gent who loaned it to me offered me to just keep it...so it stayed where it was!

[Zelandeth]

I was determined that today the BX was going to run.

Borrowed the fuel pump from the Invacar.

This got a decent amount of fuel flowing through the filter.  Still no interest in starting though.  I did block off the return line just in case the pump was having issues with the return.  No difference.

Pulling the top off the carb revealed we *did* actually have fuel in the float bowl which was progress from yesterday.  I was able to blast a bit of gunk out of a few of the passages.  There's definitely something amiss with the accelerator pump though... doesn't feel like the plunger is moving at all.  So I'll need to pull the carb and do some detective work there.  Hopefully I can find a decent exploded diagram so I don't need to reverse engineer it in my head.

Back together and we tried again.  Result?

That's progress.  Huge progress.  She still dies if you give her any real throttle because there's no accelerator pump working, but other than that she seems happy enough.  Bit of a miss now and then, but the fuel coming through the filter is the colour of weak black tea, so think we need to put a couple more gallons of fresh fuel in the tank before we read too much into that.  No smoke whatsoever, no rattles, she sounds pretty good.  Even though that puff from the front to mid exhaust join is going to drive my OCD mad now I've noticed it.

With the engine actually running I could check things out better.  Clutch seems okay.  Brakes (based on 3 feet of movement) are working. 

Suspension comes up very quickly and settles down fine.  Based on the regulator tick rate I think the accumulator sphere is fine.  The bounce test seems to show the front spheres are fine...very floaty - the amount of travel is huge compared to the Xantia.  The rear ones...not so much.  No notable travel.  We'll need some new spheres for the rear then.

Yeah, these have been on there for a while.

I was pretty happy with where we got to today.  Meant I could move the car forward a couple of feet so she wasn't blocking the path.

Oh, and I put the wheel trims back on, which has vastly improved things.

This was the first time I was able in decent weather conditions to have a look at the car.

The bodywork on this car is (aside from the one dent just forward of the nearside rear wheel which looks repairable) is astonishingly straight.  Like ridiculously so.  The lack of scrapes and dings just blows my mind.

I didn't realise that the front bumper is actually brown rather than beige!

I couldn't resist hitting one tiny bit with the polish.  I reckon she's going to look decent once she's had a polish.

The exterior has an appointment with the pressure washer then a load of polish.

I knew I wasn't going to have time for that today though, had about an hour of daylight left at that point.  That was plenty of time for a first shot at the interior though.

First order of business there was to get rid of the disintegrating slip covers on the seats.  Front seats aren't in terrible condition under them, though they're grubby as all hell and the fabric has come away from the foam which is why they look so baggy.

After an hour or so, some attention with the vacuum cleaner and a first wipe down of the plastics this is where we were.

Still a huge amount to do but it's got rid of a lot of grime, and the dash looks so much better.

Did spot one area I'll need to break out the welder for though... hardly catastrophic though!

Only real grumble there will be the sheer amount of interior I'll need to dismantle to get to it without melting things. 

Looks like the weather will be going downhill again tomorrow, if it does stay dry I'll try to get some exterior cleanup started.

Finally made a point of noting the paint code as well so I can get some made up for touch in purposes.

Quite happy with the progress so far.

 

[vulgalour]

Great to see it sat there idling quite happily, that bodes well.  The interior, seat fabric aside, looks like a good wipe over with some vinyl cleaner/conditioner will see it looking far better than it has any right to.  Is it just the photos or is the gear lever actually colour coded to the interior?

[Zelandeth]

19 minutes ago, vulgalour said:

Great to see it sat there idling quite happily, that bodes well.  The interior, seat fabric aside, looks like a good wipe over with some vinyl cleaner/conditioner will see it looking far better than it has any right to.  Is it just the photos or is the gear lever actually colour coded to the interior?

Yes, it is indeed colour coded.  Nice touch.

[somewhatfoolish]

Looks like the front bumper will look well after some linseed oil/owatrol/etc.