Project Rusty Triumphs in Scotland - To gas or not to gas(less MIG) - 09/11/24

[captain_70s]

Head no.1 has seen a fair chunk of work in the past. I'm not convinced it is the block's original head.

Head no.0 shows no evidence of ever being apart before. I don't think the car's original engine has ever seen any major work.

Gaskets and hose set ordered. Valve lapping stuff is at the post office collection site. Progress is occurring, albeit slowly.

[vulgalour]

Living the dream*.  The pictures of your flat strewn with bits of Triumph gives me the warm fuzzies, it's a fantastic display of stubborn optimism, a truly patriotic panoply of make do and mend.

 

It's also given me reason to use the word panoply.

[Yoss]

I'm surprised they use a simple piece of A4 paper, it being Glasgow. Something laminated would seem more appropriate as the chances of it not being an illegible mass of papier mache by the time anyone reads it must be 50/50 at best. 

I'd say head 0 looks marginally better but as others have said, it may be best to keep the head it came with as they know each other. It might take a bit more of lapping in of the valves but they don't have to be perfect do they. You don't need the whole 61hp (or whatever it was originally, it was 61 on the FWD 1300) at the moment anyway, just enough to make it pleasantly drivable. 

[alf892]

On 7 September 2019 at 11:14 AM, captain_70s said:

Episode 206 of "why I hate my life and smell like oil".

I took the sump off engine no.1 and pulled a piston. Nothing looks horrendously fucky. 

People who've pulled an engine apart before feel free to comment and let me know otherwise. Regardless, I've run out of money big time, so if it'll run it'll be going in the car largely as is...

So what do the the actual bearings and crank surface look like? These pics seem to show a con rod with no shells in......and the back of the shells that are still on the crank?

[captain_70s]

Something like this:

Verdict - Bearings well worn, crank scored and needs to be reground. I reckon something abrasive has gotten in there somehow. Bearings don't say anything on them to suggest they are anything other than the stock size so I doubt it's been ground before.

Current plan is reassemble and drop in car, unsure if I should even bother checking the other bearings given I can't afford to replace them regardless... New bearings are a waste of money as the crank is already scored badly enough that it'll just eat through them, I can't afford a regrind, or the bearings, or food. There is zero noticeable vertical play in either the big or small ends so I reckon the engine will go without catastrophic failure. In real terms the car only needs to do one round trip for welding of about 100 miles and can then be retired for the occasional plod around town locally to stop it from seizing up.

[Saabnut]

Save yourself the effort! Putting those shells back in on that crank will result in no oil pressure and a wrecked engine. The chances of completing 100 miles are virtually none, especially as it has been apart so will need to re-bed in, taking off more metal. If you cannot afford to do it now, either lay it up until you can or, sad as it is, sell it.

[Zelandeth]

2 hours ago, Saabnut said:

Save yourself the effort! Putting those shells back in on that crank will result in no oil pressure and a wrecked engine. The chances of completing 100 miles are virtually none, especially as it has been apart so will need to re-bed in, taking off more metal. If you cannot afford to do it now, either lay it up until you can or, sad as it is, sell it.

Seconded.

Those bearings have had it.  There's absolutely no point in putting it back together to only have to do it again in twenty miles time.

It *might* have spotted on for a while longer like that had it not been apart, but I'd be very surprised having been disturbed if you'd ever even get the oil light out on the first start up.

Save up until you can afford at the very least a set of shells, or stick a wanted ad in the appropriate section here...enough folks work on these engines someone might have bits laying around they'd be willing to give you or sell cheap.

If it's this or food though, I agree with Saabnut.  Blind stubborn optimism can go a long way(and featured heavily in my early days of motoring), but it has its limits.  It seems to me that the time to take a step back and consider what the sensible way forward here is.  Trying to keep multiple creaky classics running with the time, space, working area and money you seem to have available just now to me seems like a recipe for a mental breakdown.  Worth noting that breathing the fumes from decades old engine oil 24/7 really isn't good for you either...

I was in the "do I fix the car or eat?" camp for a year or so back in 2007 or so...ended up selling off (read: more or less giving away) most of the fleet and buying a new car on finance.  Yes it was a fair chunk of cash every month, but it was a fixed amount every month which made budgeting a million times easier.  Plus it removed a lot of stress because I knew the damned thing would just work.  Wound up keeping it a couple of months shy of ten years too...Pug 107s are good little cars.

I know you must be fed up of the "if I were you" posts so I'm not going to rattle on any more.  Frankly astonished with what you've achieved and reckon you deserve a round of applause for it.  Would just hate to see you go to all the effort of reassembling and refitting that engine only for it to go bang ten miles down the road...

[big_al_granvia]

would agree with that, it is a hobby and fine when it isnt costing a lot of cash but doing a quarter job on a engine wont get you far, new shells are a must... cut your losses or at least see if a friendly shiter (sorry cant help) has yard space that you can put it in and tarp it until you have cash... We still have a car that has been off the road for 7 years, getting bits done as and when but long term project

[captain_70s]

My issue with fitting shells is that they'll be sacrificial given the scoring on the crank. If I'm doing the shells I'd be as well getting that reground and gaining them some longevity. I love half arsing things as much as the next man but even I have my limits.

Of course once that junction is reached you're into proper rebuild territory and the game of "if I'm doing X I really should do Y" begins. After work tonight I'll pull all the pistons and get the crank out.

[big_al_granvia]

thats it mate, if the big end shells are shagged then the mains are probably too, plus these engines never did mega miles, 60k for a rebuild back then was average.... plus the days of getting bits are long gone at cheap prices

[Andyrew]

Is this engine 2 or 3? 

[captain_70s]

My numbering convention is as such:

Engine No.0 - the Dolly's original factory engine. Blown up bottom end.

Engine no.1 - the mk4 Spitfire engine residing in my bedroom. Now found to need bottom end work.

Engine no.2 - a 1300fwd engine over near Chesterfield with @Jikovron

Engine no.B - a Herald 12/50 engine which lives in the basement...

[SiC]

Would the herald crank be usable in no.1?

[dozeydustman]

Now I've seen a close up of the shells and crank the difference in what you can see is night and day, which is a shame as the rest of the engine looks useable. Just to get the car mobile it will be fine reassembling as is, but it really won't last long; I'd guess 1000 miles tops in the current state.

Bottom end shells and thrust washers aren't as expensive as I would have expected - depending on part number - around £75-100 for the total bottom end from Rimmers but that doesn't include any regrind costs of the crank journals.

What sort of condition is that Herald engine in?

 

[captain_70s]

Herald engine is a complete unknown. The bloke who gave it to me did get it to turn slightly with considerable effort via the flywheel. But he was fucking huge and lifted the whole thing on to a sack truck himself...

There is also very little info as to whether it's possible to get it to mate to a Dolly gearbox as nobody has ever been daft enough to retrograde one...

I'll be taking some measurements of the crank when it comes out to compare to all my available Triumph OHV units.

[Andyrew]

Just putting this out there and no this not the "right" thing to do but given the location and financial situation, to just get it mobile.

Could you take the not good bearings from no1 as they are only going in the bin and put them into no0 replacing the fooked ones. Meaning you can leave the bottom end in the car. 

Basically fling together an engine that's made out of the would be scrap / spares costing as little as possible 're using as much as possible.  Enough for the thing to move under it's own power. It'll be a short lived clucky bag of bollocks admitedly but the car being able to move and be complete may stop curtain twitchers complaining over the winter period when everyone becomes a miserable bastard anyway.

Then you can keep the best head, get the crank ground and the no2 bottom end bored out etc etc and recon any other bits  as and when funds are avalible. 

[Yoss]

Sort of echoing the above and being a serial Triumph bodger this is what I found last time I took mine apart. I was getting a small misfire at low revs but it still went well once you were up and running. I found no 3 cylinder had much less compression than the others. This might be why. 

But it wasn't just no3. After pulling all the pistons out I was left with these. 

The top of no3 piston and cylinder both had damage at the top 

But as it was above the piston ring line it didn't matter. 

I ended up with a rebore and new plus 30 pistons but even with all the broken rings the engine was still running quite happily once you wound it up a bit. 

I know it's a different problem to yours but these engines are as basic as they come and I'd be tempted to reassemble no 1 engine and bung it in just to get it running until you can afford a rebuild or find something better. These engines are so easy to remove I don't think you've got much to lose except a few hours of your time if it has to come straight out again. The 1300 engine will be a lot more forgiving of worn bearings than the 1500 as its shorter stroke so less uppy downy forces. 

[captain_70s]

Whipped the piston out last night.

No.2 apparently missed the memo on badly wearing. It's the only crank surface which is nice and smooth.

Will try and reply to comments at some point but work beckons...

[SiC]

Ouch at those shells! Worse than the 1100 engine. Are they originals or oversized?

What state is the inside of the oil pump like?

[captain_70s]

Can't see any markings suggesting they're oversize. 

Unsure on oil pump as I'm not sure what it should look like or otherwise. Will sort some pictures tonight.

[Yoss]

By the way, not entirely unrelated, this is what OMGHGF looks like on a Triumph 1300. 

Not the same issues as yours but it had to be recovered home. This was 1994 but I have just found this picture whilst looking for something entirely different. 

[N Dentressangle]

If I were skint and not too bothered about longevity, I'd put new standard shells in the main and big end bearings of your existing engine and put the whole lot back together. Hard to tell without running a finger nail across it, but that crank doesn't look that bad to me - there's a chance it'll work, whereas you know the existing bearings are shagged.

New mains and be's look to cost less that £50 total from James Paddock, or am I missing something?

[captain_70s]

19 hours ago, Yoss said:

By the way, not entirely unrelated, this is what OMGHGF looks like on a Triumph 1300. 

I OMGHGF'd the Dolly once. The cloud of steam from the exhaust blocked the whole street...

Here is the oil pump:

 

Here are 1/2 the mains. The rest are behind the crank which is still in the engine currently.

[PhilA]

Suggests #2 spent a good while not firing (or not firing well) and the thing was run mostly on 3. Do the rings rotate in their grooves on all the pistons? What does #2 bore look like compared to the rest? Could have been something as simple as a bad spark plug too.

Your camera focused on the wrong bit of the main bearings but the right-hand one looks pretty fugly. Do you have a set of feeler gauges? The oil pump looks pretty scored but I've seen worse; with a straight edge the manual should state the up/down clearance (the important measurement) between the rotor, lobes and end of the casing.

 

I'd say yes,it'd run. Wouldn't want to say for how far but if it's nursed along it would probably make it. I think your main killer there would be mega low oil pressure once it warms up- if you don't care and just need it to get there then whang it back together, lap the valves in hard and stick the thickest treacle oil you can find in the sump and hope for the best, keep the throttle pressed as lightly as possible and the revs low.

 

--Phil

[SiC]

So have I! From my 1100

[Yoss]

Well that makes Captains oil pump look brand new! 

 

 

1 hour ago, PhilA said:

 I think your main killer there would be mega low oil pressure once it warms up- if you don't care and just need it to get there then whang it back together, lap the valves in hard and stick the thickest treacle oil you can find in the sump and hope for the best, keep the throttle pressed as lightly as possible and the revs low.

 

--Phil

I think Triumphs generally have low oil pressure especially at idle once hot, it's why they never had oil pressure gauges, they had an ammeter instead where a third gauge was fitted. BMC stuff often had oil pressure gauges and they just make you paranoid. Worry gauges as a friend used to say. It is much better that you don't know! 

[PhilA]

11 minutes ago, Yoss said:

Well that makes Captains oil pump look brand new! 

 

 

I think Triumphs generally have low oil pressure especially at idle once hot, it's why they never had oil pressure gauges, they had an ammeter instead where a third gauge was fitted. BMC stuff often had oil pressure gauges and they just make you paranoid. Worry gauges as a friend used to say. It is much better that you don't know! 

Well, low as in none.. but there would be oil flow so as long as there's something stuck to the bearing surface it should be able tolerate light loading for a short distance

 

It would probably end up being one of those engines you put back together, expect to run 50 miles and it goes on until it's removed 5000 miles later in preference of something less worn out

--Phil

[Yoss]

There's only one way to find out!

[captain_70s]

On 9/12/2019 at 2:50 PM, SiC said:

So have I! From my 1100

Christ, That looks like it was pumping sand...

[Tadhg Tiogar]

On 9/12/2019 at 4:30 PM, Yoss said:

....I think Triumphs generally have low oil pressure especially at idle once hot, it's why they never had oil pressure gauges, they had an ammeter instead where a third gauge was fitted. BMC stuff often had oil pressure gauges and they just make you paranoid. Worry gauges as a friend used to say. It is much better that you don't know! 

Confucius say: Driver with one oil gauge, always know pressure. Driver with two oil gauges, never certain.