Demise of the big engine/manual gearbox combo.

[Spiny Norman]

The thread about the Mercedes W124 estate for sale recently showed what is becoming a very rare thing indeed, a large engined big car with a manual gearbox.

Wasn't that long ago that you still had to pay extra for an auto box, even in things like Jags and Mercs, and Granadas, Rovers  and Senators were quite commonly found with the DIY gearshift option.

 

I can't find any manual Jag XJs on Auto Trader, and barely half a dozen Merc E classes. The last big-ish car you can easily find with a traditional manual box seems to be the E39 BMW 5 series. Has the manual gearbox been dead in big cars for a while and I've just not noticed or are there still a few left?

[John F]

Yep, and it's a great shame.

 

Auto boxes are fine for commuting and other such mundane chores, but they're just no fun. At all.

[Mr Livered]

At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old git, it seems as though driving a vehicle properly (ie, including being able to change gear) is a dying art. Firstly the arrival of synchromesh robbed the ordinary driver of the ability to rev match, and thus we became disassociated from how the engine works and what it's actually up to. Then the increasing prevalence of auto boxes, even on 4x4s and commercial vehicles like buses, bin lorries etc, is going to lead to a generation of numpties whose idea of driving is just to point and press.

[cms206]

I've got an 06-plate BMW 520DSE M-sport on the driveway just now and it's a manual. It's been here nearly a week, it's my uncle's, I'm on the insurance and I have no desire whatsoever to drive it. Unless he offers me it for about £30, which isn't likely.

[Skizzer]

If the engine's big and lazy enough, you don't really need to change gears anyway.  I remember Autocar driving a then-new Jaguar XJ6 Series 3 with the rare no-cost-option manual gearbox all the way from Land's End to John O'Groats in top gear.  I think an encounter with a tractor on a steep hill might have seen them drop to third at one point, but otherwise they managed it.

[chaseracer]

Before a Vauxhall specialist** bollocksed the entire electrical system with a MIG welder, the Owd Giffer had a Carlton CDX with the 2.6 'Dual Ram' straight-6 and Getrag manual box. Quite rare, apparently, and rumoured to be something to do with Plod.

[cort16]

The Jaguar XF doesn't even have a gear knob so there's no chance of getting a manual in there. You can get most of the exec sized cars like A6, 5 series with manual boxes in the lower end of the engine range but it's not so common once you get into the bigger engines.

 

I wonder if it's a power torque thing so they don't have to develop 2 boxes that are up to the job?  Also with the duel clutch dsg gearboxes they change so fast that you can drive it like a manual just without the clutch.

 

I always like seeing the odd glitch in the matrix 7 series or Jag XJ manual that pops up now and again on ebay

[Wilko220]

We live in a world where a large number of motorists can't even be arsed to have manual handbrakes, windscreen wipers, and headlamp switches in their cars any more. I'm surprised that the manual gearbox has lasted in the mainstream for as long as it has.

[barefoot]

It's an emissions thing.

The official EU test requires a manual car to be in certain gears at curtains speeds...

 

... 8 speed ZF auto probably is more economical as it can drop the revs so much when cruising and then block shift 5 gears when you boot it.

Very interesting view on things, thanks.

[cort16]

On a mildly related note I wonder why column shift never really took off here?

[NorfolkNWeigh]

About 25 years ago I arrived at the Merc dealer in Aylesbury to find all of the staff gathered round a W126 S Class which was halfway through the showroom window.

Standing next to it was a shell shocked mechanic who kept repeating 'I didn't know you could get a fuckin manual!'

[ShiteRider]

On a mildly related note I wonder why column shift never really took off here?

I remember my dad hiring a bedford midi with column shift when i was a kid, he fucking hated it.....oddly despite working in the trade since i was seventeen the only column shifters i've driven have been autos, mainly jap crap, current picarse'ole etc.

[mouseflakes]

Loved the column change on my R16s and 70's Hiaces.

[Lord Sterling]

I suppose everyone has thier own opinions on the Auto/Manual thing. Personally with a big engined car, I'd much prefer an auto box. A big engined car is great to cruise in at low or high speed, I suppose pick up these days in a newer car with an autobox is probably just a quick as a manual.

 

I do know that manuals can* be "fun" (apparently) but I live and drive in the real world, so I'm not looking for a thrilling drive before/after work or when I'm popping to the shops/mates or even just out for a drive. I'm just looking to cruise safely to and from my destination. My first Rover 827 was a manual and although it was sometimes "fun" I found it mostly annoying as I live in a city and commuted by motorway where I often encountered a plethora of traffic lights and jams. All of my current 800s are autos and I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

I've never understood this almost militant love of manuals cars. On the Rover 800 site for example, if you mention that you've got a V6 manual, your almost treated like a king/superior entity. Watch as your posts on your thread while rise quickly as the manual lovers will want to everything about it, get the same car as an auto and you'll get a few half-arsed 'nice car' responses. Most people on there seem to cream thier crackers at the thought of a big-engined manual, I've had a fair few arguements with those militant manual gear lickers, I can't honestly be arsed these days.

 

As I understand it, on the V6 Rover 800, autoboxes were standard but manuals were a 'no-cost' option. I'm assuming a lot of manufacturers who preferred showing thier cars as autos had the same option?

[fordperv]

the general public really are getting too lazy when it comes to driving, new cars give people the feeling of being wrapped in cotton wool all nice and safe with all their airbags and crumple zone, thats why there are so many accidents because people just go ahead and do stupid things because "hey im not going to get hurt, its a new car" 

 

 

this is the answer, let natural selection take over

 

as with gear boxes is it really that tiring to regular sheeple moving their arm back and forth, flappy paddle gearboxes really do my head in as well 

[Lord Sterling]

I think what you'll find is that a lot of motoring public actually prefer manual cars as they are often scared off autos because of stories about them being difficult/expensive to repair and consume more petrol than thier manual equivalents. But then a lot of the public also prefer small engined Turdbo-Diseasels.

 

I suppose those who can afford to buy big engined cars will prefer to go with the option of an auto.

[wuvvum]

My Vectra is a 3.2 with a manual 'box, and that suits it down to the ground, because, as Skizzer said, the engine (even being a modern multivalve unit) has such a surplus of torque that gear changing really isn't needed.  I've (inadvertantly) taken it down to about 600rpm in fourth on more than one occasion, and it's accelerated away cleanly and smoothly, even uphill.  An auto would want to kick down a couple of gears rather than letting the torque do the work.

 

I've had varied experiences with column shifts.  The ones in the '74 Hiace and the DS were lovely, the Saab 96s and Victor weren't too bad, the Midi and Vanguard were dreadful (although to be fair to the Midi the linkage was getting tired).  As a concept though I don't think they're a bad idea at all.

[Tayne]

.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Whilst I defer to Lord Sterlings knowledge of Rover 800's, a company I worked for had a lot of Rovers in a fleet of over 600 cars. I remember that there were some amazing deals on run out old models in 1990/91 and we ended up with 4 827si Fastbacks with 16" 5 spokes,Vitesse spoilers but no air on or sunroof for less than the price of an 820 Auto. Two of them were used as pool cars and I remember them as FUN,although they did tend to bottom out ,heavily and noisily, on high speed(130+) dips.

We also had a couple of practically Sterling spec 820 saloons as part of the same deal,they found eager homes in management ,as the alternative was a basic carb.Granada or XM.

[eddyramrod]

I can't imagine there are many people here who don't know which way I jump on the subject.  Certainly if you've read any postings about my Cyprus Granada you'll know! 

I can't see any reason in the world to have a manual gearbox in a big-engined car.  Simple as.

 

My little Cherry is manual; my Tacuma is auto.  The Cherry has a lovely gearshift, light, slick, easy to use, a textbook example.  But it can't compete with the pure relaxing joy of the automatic.  If the Granada (a RWD Ford, remember) had shifted like the Cherry, I would have said almost exactly the same things I said about it; perhaps with slightly less vitriol.  But it didn't, it was one of the most hostile shifts I've ever encountered, and bear in mind, I owned a Maxi once!

I've read all over the internet how the holy grail of Granadas is a tax-free V6 manual.  Mine was a nice one, really tidy and handsome.  Could I sell the fecker?  I had to practically give it away, and even that took a year and a half, including moving it from Cyprus to Blighty!  I made a loss so catastrophic it makes Iceland's finances look like IBM.

 

That's not to say that every auto box is good though.  I drove a 2004 BMW 530d auto, for a day, when it was less than a year old.  That thing was a total disaster.  The box was about as co-operative as the Granada, and given that it had to make its own decisions, somewhat less safe.  That's before you start on the seat and the suspension...

So, not every auto is brilliant, but on average, they are so far ahead of manual that they have no place in a big car.  Big being anything from 206 up....

Of course you may have another opinion.  You're welcome to it.

[Honey Badger]

I've driven a few Jag S types over the last few weeks including a few petrol and diesel manuals, and while the manual was fairly slick for the type of car the auto feels much nicer IMO, it just suits the car as you waft about.

 

I wouldn't want a auto in my S2000 though, the gear shift in that is a thing of joy.

 

I blame parents of kids in the 90s for all the autos, if they had only brought little Trevor a gear stick controller for his gran tourismo we wouldn't have all these CVT micominis floating about.

[sheffcortinacentre]

206 big?????????? granada's,5 series,etc are borderline big,50's-70's yanks are big.

 

most false wheel drives have shite gear shifts vague is an understatement!

 

60's/70's fords where universaly praised for thier gear shift.

 

a good auto needs atleast 6 cyl's & plenty of lowdown torque.

[Tetleysmooth]

 

Before a Vauxhall specialist** bollocksed the entire electrical system with a MIG welder, the Owd Giffer had a Carlton CDX with the 2.6 'Dual Ram' straight-6 and Getrag manual box. Quite rare, apparently, and rumoured to be something to do with Plod.

Plod did like a big engined Vauxhall back in the day.

[406V6]

I'm with Lord Sterling and Eddyramrod on this one. If you've got a decently set up auto box, once you know it you can trigger the gear change just by altering your pressure on the accelerator.  Or the gear changer normally allows you to hold gears as well. Give me an auto every time when you've got a powerful engine. Not just easier but much safer as well. You don't have to think about the gearchange if you don't want to, just concentrate on what's happening on the road around you.  The whole auto vs manual thing is prime bar room b@ll@cks, just like the front drive vs rear drive argument.

[Cavcraft]

I'm not so sure about Senators, every time I found one for sale it would be an auto. To be honest though, and it's probably an age thing, if I had a big wafty car like the ones mentioned in the OP, I'd prefer an auto.

[chaseracer]

To be honest though, and it's probably an age thing, if I had a big wafty car like the ones mentioned in the OP, I'd prefer an auto.

 

This is why I bought Dolly's 300E.  I've had autos before and liked them a lot, but they were both ZF 4HP18Q boxes in 2-litre Citroen XMs.  Loosely translated, this means "not quite enough power and a gearbox made of chocolate".  The Merc appears to have neither of these problems.

 

I am also dangerously close to the half-century...

[cort16]

I've always has manuals as my daily but I'd be tempted into an auto in my next car as on a daily slog when you just want to get to work then get home changing gears can get a bit dull. However for a fun drive you can't beat a manual gearbox.  My XJR is massively fast but just you can't drive it as quick through corners as you could if it had a manual gearbox.

[M'coli]

I suppose if you're buying a car with a big engine the slight mpg advantage of a manual won't really sway you that much, but once you're into AS territory surely there's something to be said of a gearbox that allows bump-starting?

[Mr Livered]

Interesting responses, especially those that put the case (very well) for auto boxes.

 

I suppose I just like driving a manual. That, and the fact that I don't do much driving in towns or motorways really, it's all twisty lanes and B roads round here.

[Mr Livered]

Aha, cross-posted with M'Coli - just wanted to say, bloody good point about bump starting (and stress-free towing).