buying and selling old tat - observations

[Bren]

I have just got rid of my 2001 mondeo diesel on ebay. Car had tax and plenty of MOT, good bodywork, below average miles and all the usual mondeo problems had been addressed by me. Started auction at £600, car sold for £800. Buyer was very happy with his purchase. As per usual, had the "will you take £600" offers that were flatly refused.

 

I was speaking the buyer, he said how difficult it was to buy good sub £1000 cars that were genuine. I agreed, the scrappage scheme meant that a lot of good quality older cars went to be fragged so the new owners could buy the latest i20/rio/liana. Couple this with the high price of scrap, you have to look harder and maybe spend a bit more than a few years ago.Plus, people generally cant or won't spend the money on maintainence. This was'nt a problem ten years ago - you simply went to the bank for a loan for another car. However, the banks are'nt as keen to lend anymore. This means a lot of cars are offered for sale because they are in the twilight of their lives, and great expense is on the horizon. (cambelt change on a KV6 anyone?)

 

I bought a 51 plate fiesta ghia zetec for my other half a few months ago - really clean 44k on the clock with a full history. I handed over £1250 to bag the car, possibly a little over book for a private sale, however I felt it was worth it as the car was so clean. This was also an ebay purchase, the vendor said he had been made some really insulting offers. Because of this my wife's mitzi galant went on ebay and was sold for £375, again an old car but clean with lots of history and genuine 73k on the clock - even the air con still worked. I started bidding at £175 (it's scrap value), straight away a trader offered me this. I told him I could scrap it and cash the tax in, so no thank you, he slammed the phone down on me!

 

It's fair to say that autoshitters know where the bargains are - there are some good MG /ROVER cars that represent good value, but the motor buying public are wary of buying these now.

 

Have the days of really good cheap cars gone? Maybe they have. It just seems the british motoring public hav'nt realised yet.

[vulgalour]

I've been keeping an eye on the car market since my brother is looking at getting a car (again) and my Dad is getting itchy feet about his Carina so I like to keep myself in the loop for the sort of things they're after. What seems prevalent is that if you want a car that you can drive away with tax and MoT you're going to have to pay at least £700 for just about anything. Conversely, if you want something you don't mind having to do a bit of work on with no tax or MoT you seem to have to start at around £400 and go up because of the unrealistic expectations of some vendors.

 

A decade ago you could pick up a car without MoT or tax that was rough but could be put back on the road for £100 or even less, now that's much, much harder to do. The combination of the scrappage scheme and We Buy Any Crap inflating the price of old cars (most people seem to think their old car is automatically £1000 regardless of condition), the saturation of the market with places to sell old cars and the demand for a car you can buy without getting a loan have all contributed to this situation.

 

Occasionally you get lucky, take my Princess as a case in point, but usually it's days and weeks of trawling papers, eBay, Gumtree, CarAndClassic and all that jazz and even then you might get stung when you do find a bargain. Add to this the people that snap up the cheap cars on the aforementioned sites who then relist the car with no changes, sometimes before they've even paid for it, at a grossly inflated price rather than using the bargain they've got and it becomes harder still. It's almost like the used car market is going through what the housing market did recently and with the introduction of the pre-60 MoT exemption it's only set to get crazier.

 

Eventually, the bubble will burst... I hope.

[Cavcraft]

I don't think they're gone as such, they're just a little harder to find. Sub a grand should buy you something perfectly fine for years and years of motoring no problem, I often think some people overlook vehicles because of age and would rather spend (for example) £1400 on a 52 plate car than £700 on a 1999 one, just because the 52 plate is newer.

[retrogeezer]

You should have whacked the Mondy on here, someone might have been interested.

 

I agree with Billy on this and learnt that lesson a long time ago looking for a Mini for my ex girlfriend. We looked at loads of tatty V,W,X reg'ish ones for £6-700 (this was 1988/9) Then went to see a 76 'P' plate one that was near mint for the same money.

[Cavcraft]

Oh, not trying to be critical here but I don't see the bubble bursting for a while yet. I think the high scrap values are here for a while and even if they wane the former big money for metal combined with the Scrappage Scheme means shit load of decent motors have gone one way and aren't coming back.

 

So what's left? Percievedly 'unfashionable' and expensive cars being weighed in as not many come forward for them because they only know what they read in the papers about them, clapped out old wrecks/high priced nonsense where the dreamer of a seller wants big money (405 for example) and still the odd bargain if you're prepared to put some effort into buying and do your homework.

eBay is at fault for a lot of the problems believe it or not, and it's not their fault this time: people see a high priced Doctor-ish example of a car, fail to see that it's low mileage/like new (and has probably been for sale for eons because it's stupidly overpriced) and then just automatically assume that their shit heap example is worth serious money.

Along with that 'Howmanyleft' have something to be blamed for, note how many chancers on eBay these last few months quote HML stating shit like 'they said there's only 14 Moonstone Blue automatics with dealer mudflaps left' and all that sort of rubbish. The other key thing of course is that to some people it wouldn't matter a f*ck if there's only three Marinas/Chrylser 180s/Talbot Horizons/whatever* left because they think they were shit anyhow and you can't suddenly make a £400 car into a four grand one just because there's only a handful on the road now.

I think Pete is seeing this to an extent, not that I'm suggesting his car ir crap or worthless I hasten to add, but people get an idea a car isn't for them so aren't arsed if there's only a few left.

 

So what's the answer? In my humble opinion you have to broaden your horizons (arf arf) and make a list of a few cars that you may not have considered before if you're on a budget.

I'm as guilty as the next in thinking of cars I cannot stand and wouldn't own but if push came to shove I'd knock about in a Focus or whatever if the money was right. I wouldn't say I'd enjoy owning it (though maybe I would in time) but if there's not much else about and I need a cheap runabout then I'd defo consider one.

I suppose it's the old 'beggars and chosers' bit and you only have to look at myriad cockwands who advertise on various car forums for a sub £500 (or whatever) car then start saying 'Ooh, I don't want that £350 Focus/Astra/Corsa/Rover 600/Granada/whatever, my son's girlfriend's cat's first owner had one of them and the wheeltrim fell of on the B5678547 and nearly ran over a slightly bewildered rabbit' and all that sort of shit.

THESE are the people who will end up paying over the odds for a nice shiney car that's actually terminally f*cked, but their dad/friend who knows about cars told them a VW Golf/whatever is the best car ever made and will never go wrong. This usually ends up in tears when said car does go wrong and they've spunked every last penny on it.

and there's another thing, anyone who only has £750 to buy a car and then buys a car for £750 is asking for trouble as you have to set money aside for servicing and repairs.

 

Soz about that, I'll STFU now. As you were...

[meggersdog]

A mate of mine has had this for over a month

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ogcode=dsp

 

The car drives alright (I've driven it) but I think because it's a 1.8 that is what puts people off.He reduced the price two weeks ago to £395.00.

It is harder to find sub £500.00 cars worth buying at auction.BCA seems full of up to 7 year old stuff and I think most of the really old stuff gets fragged and many dealerships have their own ebay accounts for things worth selling.

 

Ten years ago ebay was still a small website that hadn't yet taken off over here.Scrap prices were low and you only really had (local) auto-trader and the free-ads which kept prices low.Credit was easy to come by which meant people bought newer cars so there was less demand for the cheaper stuff again keeping prices low.Now a car that ten years ago would've been worth £100.00 (in comparison) will make more over the bridge and you don't have people arranging to view then not turning up.Scrap yards will collect for more than £100 too so people don't even bother trying to sell this sort of car on again.

[Spiny Norman]

..their dad/friend who knows about cars told them a VW Golf/whatever is the best car ever made and will never go wrong. This usually ends up in tears when said car does go wrong and they've spunked every last penny on it.

 

This seems to be a common thing with some non car-literate folk. They freely admit they have no idea when it comes to cars and left to their own devices would quite happily razz about in a rusty Kia but they get told by some bar-room expert that they want a VW or a Honda because "they're reliable/they last for 400k miles, no sweat/brand x is shit" etc and they buy a complete pup for the badge on the bootlid.

[Justin Case]

I was speaking the buyer, he said how difficult it was to buy good sub £1000 cars that were genuine.

 

Interestingly, the explanation comes from Nobel Prize winning economist George Akerloff, in a book called 'The Market for Lemons'. A brief summary:

 

There are good used cars ("cherries") and defective used cars ("lemons"), normally as a consequence of several not-always-traceable variables such as the owner's driving style, quality and frequency of maintenance and accident history. Because many important mechanical parts and other elements are hidden from view and not easily accessible for inspection, the buyer of a car does not know beforehand whether it is a cherry or a lemon. So the buyer's best guess for a given car is that the car is of average quality; accordingly, he/she will be willing to pay for it only the price of a car of known average quality. This means that the owner of a carefully maintained, never-abused, good used car will be unable to get a high enough price to make selling that car worthwhile.

 

Therefore, owners of good cars will not place their cars on the used car market. The withdrawal of good cars reduces the average quality of cars on the market, causing buyers to revise downward their expectations for any given car. This, in turn, motivates the owners of moderately good cars not to sell, and so on

 

Sounds a bit like Ebay doesn't it?. Also, I wonder what car he drives?

[fiatdaft]

Cheap cars are still plentifull ,10 seconds on gumtree will find hundreds ! Blaming the scrappage scheme is a load of bollocks,it may have took a very small percentage of cars out of the market but similar cars are found on every car sales website around.And when cheap cars are advertised for sale nobody reall buys them,eg my old jag,my grand cherokee,that allegro for example.

 

Why do you think people advertise cars at say £395 ,have a couple of weeks dealing with timewasters cash the tax in,and send it over the scales and with no hassle get most of that money back.

 

Henry Gray the large scrapmetal dealer in Kirkcaldy are offering £500 for any Mercedes that is complete.

 

We buy any car offers a very very low amount for non retail cars and either scrap them or send them to auction just like anybody else can do.

 

So blaming scrappage and we buy any car is bollocks! Blame scrap prices , exporters and timewasting buyers.

[vulgalour]

By blaming scrappage and WBAC I'm referring more to the mindset it gives people, the illusion of what a car is worth rather than it's actual worth. People have it lodged in their head that an old car is worth £500-1000 regardless of condition and they expect to get that for it and advertise accordingly. It's interesting when you see the occasional low starting bid car on eBay and see just how far shy of identical examples it meets, the true value of most old cars - say, 15-30 years old - seems to be £300-400 for a runner in okay condition and £150-200 for a really shabby one with no ability to legally drive it home. Varies according to car, obviously, but that seems to be what I'm seeing when I look at stuff for sale.

[warren t claim]

Cheap cars are out there but they just take a bit of looking out for and you have to be willing to broaden your outlook on what you're willing to drive. I've looked at a fair few this week and missed out on some real bargains but on the other hand I've also walked away from a few horrors as well.

 

Today I bought this...

Full MOT and a whopping EIGHT months tax for £440. It's not without its faults, it needs a bit of attention to the knocking exhaust, the clutch bite is pretty high, no evidence of a belt change and one of the back doors sometimes sticks closed. On the plus side it did 30mpg in heavy Liverpool traffic with two adults and a couple of kids on board with the (ice cold) aircon on, it's amazingly comfortable and cruises at motorway speeds indicating a happy 44mpg. Not too bad for a 1.8 petrol with 100k on the clock.

 

It's no 156 but at the end of the day I needed transport as the 106 is due its test this week and after exporting the Mercedes I was short of a big car.

 

The entire deal was done in under 10 minutes cos I had the cash in my pocket on the off chance that I found something out and about on my travels.

[Pete-M]

Mate of mine has an identical 406 2.0 to that. It's not a bad old thing.

 

As for trying to find good cheap stuff, I'm struggling. I'm looking for something for a friend of mine who wants something a bit more practical than her motorbike. A micra or summat, but she's only got a few hundred quid to spend and doesn't want to be chucking money at whatever she buys. Used to be easy, now it's like a needle in a haystack.

 

As for the 604... I simply can't believe it's not gone. It'll be getting another eBay listing shortly as I need the space for the Jag.

 

It's a weird time to be flogging weird stuff or buying cheap. Stuff like Wazza's 406 is easy to find, but for the majority of skint folk it's a bugger to insure.

[warren t claim]

 

As for trying to find good cheap stuff, I'm struggling. I'm looking for something for a friend of mine who wants something a bit more practical than her motorbike. A micra or summat, but she's only got a few hundred quid to spend and doesn't want to be chucking money at whatever she buys. Used to be easy, now it's like a needle in a haystack.

 

It's a weird time to be flogging weird stuff or buying cheap. Stuff like Wazza's 406 is easy to find, but for the majority of skint folk it's a bugger to insure.

 

Oddly enough my last Micra was £225 from Gumtree with tax n' test. The fist person to view it didn't want it cos it was a deep metallic gold. I sold it a month later for £430 (I think) and the phone didn't stop ringing.

 

I'll admit that a 406 wasn't high on my wish list but I really didn't want one of the many Vectras or E36 BMWs that litter the classifieds.

[maxpower]

i had a 406 same year in black... mrs loved the seats and air con, she still moans at me to this day for selling it

[dollywobbler]

I also think there are cheap cars out there, but you can't expect them to just land on your plate. Sadly there's a whole ocean of shit cars out there that needs to be waded through to find the gems.

 

I agree that scrappage changed the mindset and a good number of GOOD cheap cars got binned, but that was a while ago now.

 

Longer term, I wonder whether we're going to see a boom in Nineties shite values once people realise how horrible more modern stuff is to own once it's a bit leggy and ancient.

[Cavcraft]

Talking of 406s I was offered a petrol one a few weeks back now. Finally got to see it last weekend after I remembered to go and see it.

The owner was on holiday so I enquired as to when he was back (like next week or whatever) only to then be told it was for a slightly longer time than that as the 'holiday camp' weren't keen to let him out for three years. Seemingly he'd been caught with enough gear to make a small village happy. Anyhow as I'm being told this I swear to God I looked through the o/s/r window to see most of the interior covered in white powder! I think the fella there saw my face and very quickly explained it was Shake N Vac to try and neutralise some smells within the car

I made my excuses and left.

[Negative Creep]

I paid £295 for the Bluebird, so it can be done. With that one there was a bit of luck in that the seller advertised it poorly on ebay (Nissan saloon car). My location can work in my favour since a lot of people wouldn't consider travelling this far down. As for selling I don't seem to get messed around often, it's more a case of no one ever bloody rings in the first place!

[worldofceri]

I'm no expert on the motor trade but it seems to me to be a buyer's market out there.

 

The problem is unrealistic expectations from sellers. That quote from alfisti I've never heard before but it rings true. The only solution for a seller with an above-average vehicle to sell is to spend a lot of time on preparation and perfecting the spiel, a-la The Doctor.

 

I firmly believe if you stick a car on Ebay with a 99p start and no reserve, a decent set of pictures and a comprehensive and honest description you will get what the car is worth. It probably won't be what you'd ideally want, but it shouldn't be too far off. This is simply due to the fact that thousands of folk are looking at Ebay every day. (Only exceptions are if you live in the Outer Hebrides or something or the car is very rare or unusual.)

 

As a buyer you just have to sift through the overpriced bollocks to find the no-reserve auctions and Gumtree bargains.

 

And not be too choosy. You can get a lot of metal for your money if you'd consider a mid-'90s Saab 9000 or Volvo 740, but a lot of folk won't, for all the obvious reasons. The market for 'cheap to run' motors like the Micra Pete-M's friend's is after is a tougher one because everyone wants something cheap to run. Seems a false economy to me, paying thousands more to get ten more mpg or save fifty quid a year on tax, but there you go.

[Angrydicky]

Bloke at work had an identical 406 to that until recently, on a T plate. He'd had it from almost new and said it was the most reliable car he'd ever owned. Sadly he traded it in for one of those modern 'gopping' Peugeots recently.

 

The days of 10 years ago where you could pick up T&T'd cars for £50 is long gone, sadly. However, there are still bargains to be had if you know where to look. Nowadays everyone wants a diesel, so large petrol barges tend to be cheap. As someone mentioned above, MG Rover cars are especially cheap at the moment.

 

Pete, I see you have a garage, is there any way the 604 could go in there temporarily if you're running out of space? 'Tis a lovely old thing, and I hope you find a buyer soon.

[Pete-M]

Pete, I see you have a garage, is there any way the 604 could go in there temporarily if you're running out of space? 'Tis a lovely old thing, and I hope you find a buyer soon.

 

I have, but I need to fix the roof on it. Once the roof is sorted it won't be the 604 that goes in there, but there'll be another space so things won't be so bad.

[Lord Sterling]

As many have already said, there are still cheap cars out there, but you do have to look harder and be prepared to compromise. I think the days of sub £300 T&T'd cars are gone.

 

Most buyers these days have too high expectations, they expect to find an as-new hatchback that costs as little as a daily bus fare to buy and run. As they dont bother to do any homework, if it breaks down, it will cost to repair. They'll either try and get thier money back through the seller or simply scrap it. On the other hand most sellers these days have high expectations too, demanding big money for poorly advertised chod.

 

Many people seems to also try to jump on the 'classic' bandwagon without doing any homework. They think because they have picked up a 1989 Escort for a few hundred its going to sell for thousands, people really do think they are sitting on a goldmine. They dont seem to understand that just because a car is 20+ years old, it does not mean its automatically worth thousands.

 

The reason why MG/Rovers are so cheap is because most people, again, just arent prepared to do some real homework on them. They are happy to take pub-talk crap/overblown myths as absolute gospel, but simply wont listen to those who are more informed and have real first-hand experience.

[fiatdaft]

Sub £300 t&t cars are far from gone.

[Lord Sterling]

Sub £300 t&t cars are far from gone.

 

They are not as numurous as they used to be.

[fiatdaft]

Yes but the days of paying somebody £30 to take away the stripped cars i had broken for spares have gone aswell,now you get paid a couple of hundered for them,as has been said before they are out there and you won't lose any money on them.

[Lord Sterling]

I'm not talking scrap cars here. I'm talking sub tax and tested £300 ready-to-use chod that you used to find in second-hand car dealers and the cheapies section in Autotrader.

 

Read my first post again, the first line had:

 

As many have already said, there are still cheap cars out there, but you do have to look harder and be prepared to compromise

[warren t claim]

The total banger market has changed considerably over the last 10 years. Long gone are the days when a scrap car was worth £30-50. Back then there was a lively market in sheds with an expired MOT but with long tax cos in the pre-ANPR days any outlaw motorist knew that a valid tax disc meant that he could park his uninsured or tested car on the road without fear of a pull as long as it was reasonably tidy. No way would you get away with that now.

 

I really don't see the point of selling a £250 car on Gumtree or Ebay if the scrapman is willing to offer a fast sale for £200 with no chance of any comeback. Sadly this is why my old 405 estate is now just frag metal on the way to China. Sad to see it die with such a long test and only needing the pump fettling but that's life.

[Cavcraft]

I can see the point mate, it's just criminal to bail a perfectly useable car and it's always a last resort where possible. The trouble is of course you can easily run out of patience with idiotic potential buyers so it's no wonder many people just weigh stuff in without trying to sell first now.