project 1980 Austin Princess

[vulgalour]

Lots of good suggestions here.

 

Carpet - there is only one.  There is no excess of carpet under the pedals causing problems.  Finally, a problem this car DOESN'T have!

 

Arm/piston movement - this is the same as it was when the clutch and hydraulics were last working.  The pedal moves, it engages the arm, it seems normal.  It's not difficult to push the pedal, nor is it just floppy like it's doing nothing.

 

Pedal adjustment/travel - this too seems normal.  I haven't looked today to check for any faffing about but from memory there isn't any adjustment to be had, it is just a clevis pin that goes into the arm with a split/R pin on.  There's no adjustment at the clutch end either, no slidey things or thread bars or whatnot like you might get on, say, a BX.

 

plasticvandan's description of the effect of a collapsed brake hose seems like a rather more terminal version of what I'm getting, which could be why the slave cylinder piston was stuck.  Asimo's advice that it's volume rather than pressure would also back this up, since a restricted hose wouldn't allow enough volume of fluid to pass through to do it's job, so you have to pump it more times to get more fluid through.

 

 

At this point, I reckon we try the hose when it gets here (probably Monday/Tuesday) and go from there.  The most frustrating thing about this is that the last couple of times I've bled Princess clutch hydraulics it has literally been the easiest thing ever so that it's this difficult to do is a little strange and hints at something having failed somewhere.

[plasticvandan]

One would imagine that a new clutch would require more force to disengage than a worn out one with weak springs.for peace of mind,if feasable,I would be wanting to manually fully engage the clutch arm by hand somehow (g clamp,molegrip etc) with car in gear and push car to check engine doesn't turn over.would rule out any issue with the clutch itself.

[twosmoke300]

Clutches get heavier as they wear - the leverage ratio on the pressure plate changes

[Zelandeth]

What's the hole spacing on the flange on the slave?  Hose connector is in a different place, but otherwise it looks very similar to a Skoda Estelle slave if I'm remembering rightly...

[wuvvum]

I would have thought that if a hydraulic hose had collapsed internally it would make the pedal harder to push (as forcing fluid through a more restricted hole) rather than causing it to need several pumps in order to disengage the clutch.  In the absence of any air in the system or leaky piston seals, a given movement in the master cylinder should result in a consistent movement in the slave cylinder.  Unless I'm missing something, which is quite possible as it's now 11pm on a Friday and my brain has had it.

[vulgalour]

Whatever is wrong with this, I think we can all agree that currently It's Fucked

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I'm all for Dave numbers' suggestion, that has worked miracles for me in the past

[dave21478]

 

plasticvandan's description of the effect of a collapsed brake hose seems like a rather more terminal version of what I'm getting, which could be why the slave cylinder piston was stuck.  Asimo's advice that it's volume rather than pressure would also back this up, since a restricted hose wouldn't allow enough volume of fluid to pass through to do it's job, so you have to pump it more times to get more fluid through.

 

 

Um, if the hose is restricted and not allowing "enough" fluid through, then the pedal would not go all the way down.

One stroke of the pedal moves one certain volume of fluid. If you are getting a full, normal pedal stroke then either that fluid is going elsewhere, or there is still air which is compressing and reducing the force provided by that volume of fluid moving into where the air bubble is.

Or, I suppose there could be a fault in the master cylinder where it is not drawing the correct volume of fluid from the reservoir as the plunger moves down the bore.

Since its all been apart though, air is just the most likely problem.

[dave21478]

Don’t the freelander clutch bits all come pre filled with no loss connectors ? Last one I did a clutch on did . Literally just clipped the pipes together and no bleeding reqd . The only positive in the whole job tho

In theory yes, but it seems that some aftermarket manufacturers "no loss" connectors are not quite as no loss as they really should be. The landy forum is full of folk having shelled out big dollah for td4 clutch swaps and it not working afterwards. The concentric slave is a shithouse design with the bleed nipple lower than the top of the cylinder so a total arse to bleed once air gets into it.

[dozeydustman]

Have you tried bleeding the system in reverse? i.e. forcing fluid through the slave cylinder bleed nipple with a syringe or pressure bleeder up to the reservoir. Can help with tricky little bubbles that won't go or cylinders with the bleed nipple in a stupid place. You don't need the trigger thing in the picture below, just get a huge syringe and a bit of rubber hose off ebay or amazon for pence.

 

[Angrydicky]

Angyl, give me a call at Past Parts on Monday. Very little of what we actually do is on the website, it's well out of date. Princess clutch master is about £90 to rebuild, slave is about £60, plus carriage and VAT. We can do repair kits for both too.

[Angrydicky]

Dodge 50 unit is much bigger by the way.

[vulgalour]

Ah good, an inside contact!  For a rebuild of both cylinders with VAT and postage I'm guessing it's about £200-220?  I'm still hoping it's trapped air or  the hose or both and nothing more serious.  If I can't get it bled through - and there's LOTS to try from the suggestions here now - I'll be dropping you a line.

[trigger]

Someone spotted you on Facebook.

 

[Tadhg Tiogar]

It does look a touch strange without the front bumper.

[vulgalour]

I tried the cheapest, easiest solution first of wedging the clutch pedal down overnight (actually nearer 24 hours in this instance) and then attempting to bleed the system.  The net result of this is that no air came out and the pedal feel was not improved over previous bleeding attempts in the slightest.  That's a disappointment, I was hopeful this would work given the reports of success of this method.  I didn't attempt a reverse bleed as I don't have suitable hose to do so.

20180210-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Move on to the clutch hose next then since I had a new one that did look identical to mine and was listed as "Princess  1975-1982".  Apparently, it's not suitable for this Princess, it's too short to reach the connecting points.  Furthermore, I haven't the materials in stock to extend the clutch hard line or the bracket that holds the clutch pipe and hose in place so this was a no go.

20180210-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

 

On a slightly optimistic note,  air flow through the old pipe is partially obstructed by something and fluid flow is very poor.  This hints that perhaps it is just the hose that's failed and is the root of the bleed issues.  I'll see if my local Pirtek can make me a new one, it shouldn't be hideously expensive providing the end fittings are standard sizes since it's a fairly low pressure pipe this time and quite small.  If a new pipe doesn't resolve the issue then it'll be time to take off and inspect the master cylinder for failed seals and if that doesn't appear to be the problem then I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

 

Yes, it is baffling that this is becoming such a difficult problem.  Yes, it is frustrating.  Yes, I am annoyed by this car.

[Stanky]

 

+

 

 

???

 

On a serious note, what a pain - do you know if the part is wrongly desrcribed, or just poorly made? Well done persevering.

 

[RayMK]

I tried the cheapest, easiest solution first of wedging the clutch pedal down overnight (actually nearer 24 hours in this instance) and then attempting to bleed the system.  The net result of this is that no air came out and the pedal feel was not improved over previous bleeding attempts in the slightest.  That's a disappointment, I was hopeful this would work given the reports of success of this method.  I didn't attempt a reverse bleed as I don't have suitable hose to do so.

20180210-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Move on to the clutch hose next then since I had a new one that did look identical to mine and was listed as "Princess  1975-1982".  Apparently, it's not suitable for this Princess, it's too short to reach the connecting points.  Furthermore, I haven't the materials in stock to extend the clutch hard line or the bracket that holds the clutch pipe and hose in place so this was a no go.

20180210-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

 

On a slightly optimistic note,  air flow through the old pipe is partially obstructed by something and fluid flow is very poor.  This hints that perhaps it is just the hose that's failed and is the root of the bleed issues.  I'll see if my local Pirtek can make me a new one, it shouldn't be hideously expensive providing the end fittings are standard sizes since it's a fairly low pressure pipe this time and quite small.  If a new pipe doesn't resolve the issue then it'll be time to take off and inspect the master cylinder for failed seals and if that doesn't appear to be the problem then I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

 

Yes, it is baffling that this is becoming such a difficult problem.  Yes, it is frustrating.  Yes, I am annoyed by this car.

 

You should know by now that optimism does not work when it comes to old cars.  You will end up replacing everything because replacement of all of the obvious leaky/worn out/diagnosed culprits will have absolutely no (positive) effect on the problem. Sometimes the bar stewards just start working normally again for no apparent reason.  That can be even more worrying. It can affect your sanity.  I'm concerned that you may soon need therapy.  Renault 6....Princess....1100....   .  Stay calm but keep at it for our benefit .  

[vulgalour]

@Stanky:  I think it's wrongly described rather than a faulty part.  The end connectors are identical on both pipes, it's just the flexible bit that's too short.  I suspect the replacement hose is actually for  1975-1978 cars with the B series engine or it's only for the 2200.  It seems the O series is a bit of a headache for some parts and the stuff I'm replacing now is less usual to have to replace, so there's virtually no parts supply as there's also  virtually no demand.

 

@RayMK:  you question my sanity now?  After all this time?  I called it lots of bad names today, that usually helps.

[Des]

Would a length of semi rigid plastic pipe and olives between both cyls be an elegant solution here?

Years ago I did a load of mot work to a very fucked mini for registration number transfer nonsense, it had a collapsed clutch hose that slightly delayed clutch engagement, when the pedal was pumped it would go solid as the arm would reach its stop and then take enough time for me to jump out and count to 10 before engaging again. I showed everyone the ghost car, used to point it toward the non paying punters heaps at the top of the car park, bit of fast idle on the choke and off the driverless car would go to the utter befuddlement of anyone witnessing.

[vulgalour]

It'll just be easier to get a new custom pipe made, if a little expensive.  Hopefully that'll solve it and I can press it back into daily use again to get some miles under the tyres before the April MoT.

[vulgalour]

Just been reminded by a fellow club member that they have the master cylinder, slave cylinder, and good clutch hose from OKK.  I'm gonna buy those instead, providing they're within my budget, since I know they'll do the job.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Flippin heck there must be a million brake hoses that would do the job, even if they were longer. I reckon you should find out what threads are on the end (I bet you can do this while sat browsing on line catalogues) then find a brake hose with the same fittings. In fact I bet any brake pipe for any 1970s/1980s BL shitter with a male fitting on each end will fit, you might have to loop & cable tie it if it's too long. I reckon that will get you a £3 solution instead of £30 for a custom hose or whatever.

[vulgalour]

You're welcome to try.  I haven't the patience at this point tbqh.

[vulgalour]

GET IN https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-MORRIS-B-L-PRINCESS-AMBASSADOR-1700-1800-2000-1975-84-CLUTCH-HOSE-BH245/232650946290

 

Less than a tenner and measures the same length as the old one I brought home with me, just in case.  It's also stated as suitable for Ambassador, 1700 and 2000 so should be the correct one for me.

[vulgalour]

GOOD NEWS!

 

The new clutch hose arrived, this time longer than the original by about the same difference as the last one I bought was shorter.  Very odd.

20180216-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Too long is less of a problem than too short at least so I got that fitted and Mike and I bled the clutch hydraulics.

20180216-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Initial signs were very promising with a much better feeling clutch pedal this time around.  Started up the car and.... GEARS!  Hooray.  I then found out just how worn out my old clutch was because on trying to set off I instantly stalled the car.  The blowing exhaust wasn't helping that much there either, I'm sure.  Next was to noisily pilot it into the unit  to see if we could improve the exhaust situation.  Mike cracked on with that while I did some other jobs.

20180216-03 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

To save the old wing mirror holes from snagging on cleaning cloths and clothes and anything else, I fitted some little rubber grommets.  I'll weld these holes up eventually, for now this will do.

20180216-04 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

The trim under the glovebox was finally secured.  I don't have any of the relevant fixings in stock at the moment so I improvised with some tiny black cable ties, again for the short term.  It works, looks tidy, and makes the parcel shelf accessible again.

20180216-05 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

20180216-06 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Trimmed down the bolts for the door mirrors so they sit more securely.  They're not bad to drive on, as it happens, the driver's side mirror has a magnifying mirror and they give a reasonable field of vision.

20180216-07 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

The exhaust  decided it didn't want to stop blowing at all.  We got one side sealed for a few minutes, and then it just started blowing again.  I'm giving this job to somebody else to do who I will give money because tbqh I've done faffing about with this stupid design, it's never sealed properly for very long in all the years I've owned it and it's an absolute chore to resolve.  Giving it to someone who does exhausts all day for a living will hopefully seal it better.  I suspect the exhaust is a cheap aftermarket one that doesn't really fit properly because even by Princess standards mine has been appallingly bad for continuing to blow at the manifold-to-downpipe join.

 

That aside, the drive home was noisy but actually a bit of a revelation.  The clutch change has utterly transformed the way the car performs, there's no longer that awkward balancing act when setting off, good progression through the gears and a generally more responsive car off the line even with a badly blowing exhaust.  In fact, it's such an improvement I was nearly caught out when I forgot that it's not the Rover and has no power steering, poorer brakes and is, generally, a bigger and older machine.  In some ways, I wish I'd done the clutch change when I first got the car, it's clearly needed doing for my entire ownership of the car.

 

20180216-08 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Now just to work through the light bulb niggles and book the car in to get the exhaust sorted out by someone else.  It felt good to actually drive the car again, allbeit only for a few short miles.

[320touring]

YAAAASSSS!

great news:)

[Parky]

I like this result very much indeed

 

I like this result very much indeed

 

This result - so good I said it twice!

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Great work vulg!!!!! Is the pedal much lighter too. Seem to remember that from my crab & wedge clutch changes.

 

'The Crab and Wedge' sounds like a great name for a pub actually, I am going to send that one right off to Wetherspoons

[Felly Magic]

I would call that a result, meaning you can drive it about again, sounding like a Chav in a Pauxhall Corset LOL