project 1980 Austin Princess

[vulgalour]

I know who wears the trousers in this relationship and it's not me.

[dave21478]

I put literally 8 litres of fluid through my Freelander using gravity, pressure kits, vacuum kits and I would have used my cock to piss it through if I could have done, all to no avail, but a night with a bit of stick holding the pedal down sorted it.

[vulgalour]

If it proves troublesome when I fit the new hose I'll give it a try.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Also try unbolting the slave from the engine and holding it at different angles whilst gently pressure bleeding it.

 

For example; it can be near enough impossible to bleed a BMW clutch with the slave bolted to the box - if you unbolt it and let it dangle down on it's hose (get a mate to hold the piston in!) it suddenly bleeds through. They're a Grade A cow. 

 

Lennon was alive when that master cylinder was fitted. Just saying.

[twosmoke300]

I put literally 8 litres of fluid through my Freelander using gravity, pressure kits, vacuum kits and I would have used my cock to piss it through if I could have done, all to no avail, but a night with a bit of stick holding the pedal down sorted it.

Don’t the freelander clutch bits all come pre filled with no loss connectors ? Last one I did a clutch on did . Literally just clipped the pipes together and no bleeding reqd . The only positive in the whole job tho

[SiC]

I bled my MGB slave with it dangling. I also pushed the slave in and used a zip tie to keep it in. Idea being that there is less reservoir down there that has to have air removed from. I then used a Eezibleed thing to push the fluid through.

 

Apparently awkward and difficult on the MGB. However I never had any problems and it worked first time. Which, from me, is quite telling. Usually it takes a good many times and a lot of swearing before I get anything hydraulic fixed.

[plasticvandan]

I have had an internally collapsed brake hose on a Reliant Kitten,basic symptoms were that the brake wouldn't release after pressing the pedal.I see no reason why it wouldn't cause the same issue for you.Adjustment on where the pedal clevis goes into the master is also a very good point,presumably now you have a new clutch the hydraulics haven't got as far to push before it actuates the clutch?check your free play etc.again had a problem with brakes locking on because I had over adjusted a master cyl clevis so that there wasn't space for fluid to return.

[Mally]

Its many years since I did one, but I don't think there is any adjustment at slave or pedal.

If the hose was collapsed I imagine it would be difficult to bleed.

I remember someone* putting a shim behind the clutch release bearing once, but not on one of these as that means engine out again.

How far do you have to press the pedal before the slave cylinder moves?

Once it's started moving does it move constantly until the pedal hits the floor?

Long shot this but has it got 3 carpets under the pedal!

[Asimo]

It isn't pressure as such that operates the clutch but a certain volume of fluid has to enter the slave cylinder to move that clutch pushrod far enough to disengage the clutch. Is there any slop in the linkage at the slave end? There should be a specification somewhere for the amount of free play there, ie the amount of wiggle on the clutch operating arm.

[captain_70s]

It has been suggested amongst Dolly owners you could attach something to the end of the pushrod in order to give it more length due to the fact that bleeding the system can be such a farce on the Triumph saloons. On my car the biting point is on the floor, to the extent I can't have the driver's side carpet fitted, no amount of bleeding will get it to raise any higher despite several attempts over the years!

[alf892]

Isn't there a means of adjusting the stroke of the actuating arm like on transverse A series......so that the travel operates the clutch rather than just taking up the slack?

[vulgalour]

Lots of good suggestions here.

 

Carpet - there is only one.  There is no excess of carpet under the pedals causing problems.  Finally, a problem this car DOESN'T have!

 

Arm/piston movement - this is the same as it was when the clutch and hydraulics were last working.  The pedal moves, it engages the arm, it seems normal.  It's not difficult to push the pedal, nor is it just floppy like it's doing nothing.

 

Pedal adjustment/travel - this too seems normal.  I haven't looked today to check for any faffing about but from memory there isn't any adjustment to be had, it is just a clevis pin that goes into the arm with a split/R pin on.  There's no adjustment at the clutch end either, no slidey things or thread bars or whatnot like you might get on, say, a BX.

 

plasticvandan's description of the effect of a collapsed brake hose seems like a rather more terminal version of what I'm getting, which could be why the slave cylinder piston was stuck.  Asimo's advice that it's volume rather than pressure would also back this up, since a restricted hose wouldn't allow enough volume of fluid to pass through to do it's job, so you have to pump it more times to get more fluid through.

 

 

At this point, I reckon we try the hose when it gets here (probably Monday/Tuesday) and go from there.  The most frustrating thing about this is that the last couple of times I've bled Princess clutch hydraulics it has literally been the easiest thing ever so that it's this difficult to do is a little strange and hints at something having failed somewhere.

[plasticvandan]

One would imagine that a new clutch would require more force to disengage than a worn out one with weak springs.for peace of mind,if feasable,I would be wanting to manually fully engage the clutch arm by hand somehow (g clamp,molegrip etc) with car in gear and push car to check engine doesn't turn over.would rule out any issue with the clutch itself.

[twosmoke300]

Clutches get heavier as they wear - the leverage ratio on the pressure plate changes

[Zelandeth]

What's the hole spacing on the flange on the slave?  Hose connector is in a different place, but otherwise it looks very similar to a Skoda Estelle slave if I'm remembering rightly...

[wuvvum]

I would have thought that if a hydraulic hose had collapsed internally it would make the pedal harder to push (as forcing fluid through a more restricted hole) rather than causing it to need several pumps in order to disengage the clutch.  In the absence of any air in the system or leaky piston seals, a given movement in the master cylinder should result in a consistent movement in the slave cylinder.  Unless I'm missing something, which is quite possible as it's now 11pm on a Friday and my brain has had it.

[vulgalour]

Whatever is wrong with this, I think we can all agree that currently It's Fucked

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I'm all for Dave numbers' suggestion, that has worked miracles for me in the past

[dave21478]

 

plasticvandan's description of the effect of a collapsed brake hose seems like a rather more terminal version of what I'm getting, which could be why the slave cylinder piston was stuck.  Asimo's advice that it's volume rather than pressure would also back this up, since a restricted hose wouldn't allow enough volume of fluid to pass through to do it's job, so you have to pump it more times to get more fluid through.

 

 

Um, if the hose is restricted and not allowing "enough" fluid through, then the pedal would not go all the way down.

One stroke of the pedal moves one certain volume of fluid. If you are getting a full, normal pedal stroke then either that fluid is going elsewhere, or there is still air which is compressing and reducing the force provided by that volume of fluid moving into where the air bubble is.

Or, I suppose there could be a fault in the master cylinder where it is not drawing the correct volume of fluid from the reservoir as the plunger moves down the bore.

Since its all been apart though, air is just the most likely problem.

[dave21478]

Don’t the freelander clutch bits all come pre filled with no loss connectors ? Last one I did a clutch on did . Literally just clipped the pipes together and no bleeding reqd . The only positive in the whole job tho

In theory yes, but it seems that some aftermarket manufacturers "no loss" connectors are not quite as no loss as they really should be. The landy forum is full of folk having shelled out big dollah for td4 clutch swaps and it not working afterwards. The concentric slave is a shithouse design with the bleed nipple lower than the top of the cylinder so a total arse to bleed once air gets into it.

[dozeydustman]

Have you tried bleeding the system in reverse? i.e. forcing fluid through the slave cylinder bleed nipple with a syringe or pressure bleeder up to the reservoir. Can help with tricky little bubbles that won't go or cylinders with the bleed nipple in a stupid place. You don't need the trigger thing in the picture below, just get a huge syringe and a bit of rubber hose off ebay or amazon for pence.

 

[Angrydicky]

Angyl, give me a call at Past Parts on Monday. Very little of what we actually do is on the website, it's well out of date. Princess clutch master is about £90 to rebuild, slave is about £60, plus carriage and VAT. We can do repair kits for both too.

[Angrydicky]

Dodge 50 unit is much bigger by the way.

[vulgalour]

Ah good, an inside contact!  For a rebuild of both cylinders with VAT and postage I'm guessing it's about £200-220?  I'm still hoping it's trapped air or  the hose or both and nothing more serious.  If I can't get it bled through - and there's LOTS to try from the suggestions here now - I'll be dropping you a line.

[trigger]

Someone spotted you on Facebook.

 

[Tadhg Tiogar]

It does look a touch strange without the front bumper.

[vulgalour]

I tried the cheapest, easiest solution first of wedging the clutch pedal down overnight (actually nearer 24 hours in this instance) and then attempting to bleed the system.  The net result of this is that no air came out and the pedal feel was not improved over previous bleeding attempts in the slightest.  That's a disappointment, I was hopeful this would work given the reports of success of this method.  I didn't attempt a reverse bleed as I don't have suitable hose to do so.

20180210-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Move on to the clutch hose next then since I had a new one that did look identical to mine and was listed as "Princess  1975-1982".  Apparently, it's not suitable for this Princess, it's too short to reach the connecting points.  Furthermore, I haven't the materials in stock to extend the clutch hard line or the bracket that holds the clutch pipe and hose in place so this was a no go.

20180210-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

 

On a slightly optimistic note,  air flow through the old pipe is partially obstructed by something and fluid flow is very poor.  This hints that perhaps it is just the hose that's failed and is the root of the bleed issues.  I'll see if my local Pirtek can make me a new one, it shouldn't be hideously expensive providing the end fittings are standard sizes since it's a fairly low pressure pipe this time and quite small.  If a new pipe doesn't resolve the issue then it'll be time to take off and inspect the master cylinder for failed seals and if that doesn't appear to be the problem then I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

 

Yes, it is baffling that this is becoming such a difficult problem.  Yes, it is frustrating.  Yes, I am annoyed by this car.

[Stanky]

 

+

 

 

???

 

On a serious note, what a pain - do you know if the part is wrongly desrcribed, or just poorly made? Well done persevering.

 

[RayMK]

I tried the cheapest, easiest solution first of wedging the clutch pedal down overnight (actually nearer 24 hours in this instance) and then attempting to bleed the system.  The net result of this is that no air came out and the pedal feel was not improved over previous bleeding attempts in the slightest.  That's a disappointment, I was hopeful this would work given the reports of success of this method.  I didn't attempt a reverse bleed as I don't have suitable hose to do so.

20180210-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Move on to the clutch hose next then since I had a new one that did look identical to mine and was listed as "Princess  1975-1982".  Apparently, it's not suitable for this Princess, it's too short to reach the connecting points.  Furthermore, I haven't the materials in stock to extend the clutch hard line or the bracket that holds the clutch pipe and hose in place so this was a no go.

20180210-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

 

On a slightly optimistic note,  air flow through the old pipe is partially obstructed by something and fluid flow is very poor.  This hints that perhaps it is just the hose that's failed and is the root of the bleed issues.  I'll see if my local Pirtek can make me a new one, it shouldn't be hideously expensive providing the end fittings are standard sizes since it's a fairly low pressure pipe this time and quite small.  If a new pipe doesn't resolve the issue then it'll be time to take off and inspect the master cylinder for failed seals and if that doesn't appear to be the problem then I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

 

Yes, it is baffling that this is becoming such a difficult problem.  Yes, it is frustrating.  Yes, I am annoyed by this car.

 

You should know by now that optimism does not work when it comes to old cars.  You will end up replacing everything because replacement of all of the obvious leaky/worn out/diagnosed culprits will have absolutely no (positive) effect on the problem. Sometimes the bar stewards just start working normally again for no apparent reason.  That can be even more worrying. It can affect your sanity.  I'm concerned that you may soon need therapy.  Renault 6....Princess....1100....   .  Stay calm but keep at it for our benefit .  

[vulgalour]

@Stanky:  I think it's wrongly described rather than a faulty part.  The end connectors are identical on both pipes, it's just the flexible bit that's too short.  I suspect the replacement hose is actually for  1975-1978 cars with the B series engine or it's only for the 2200.  It seems the O series is a bit of a headache for some parts and the stuff I'm replacing now is less usual to have to replace, so there's virtually no parts supply as there's also  virtually no demand.

 

@RayMK:  you question my sanity now?  After all this time?  I called it lots of bad names today, that usually helps.