Weld it up?

[Dobloseven]

There's been some discussion of late about the difficulty in getting welding done on car bodywork.With garages not wanting to do it for various,often understandable reasons.Taking the dog for a walk,noticed a very old garage that has been unused for as long as I can remember,had been given a spruce up and a rather incongruous sign saying "Weld It Up" and stating that they repaired sills,floors,chassis etc.Slightly worryingly,the building,quite small and right next to a road,is mostly made of wood.I don't suppose they'll be restoring many E Types,but could it be there's a market for sticking patches on for MOT passes, squeezing another year or two out of an old faithful.Thinking if you'd got your workshop geared to that kind of work,with welder,angle grinders etc.all set up ready,metal in different thicknesses all in stock,the tools to cut and shape it,could it be a viable business?You do see old Picasso's,Focuses,etc.etc. with patches stuck on sills,so someone must be doing it somewhere.

[grogee]

Where is this @Dobloseven? (The wooden welding garage) 

[Dobloseven]

Corporation Road in Leicester.It's on Street view but the sign has only just gone up this week.If I'm going past and they're open, I'll try to have a word.

[danthecapriman]

Tbh, I’d quite like to do that sort of work. Trouble is I don’t have anywhere to do it! 
I’ve got the tools etc but I don’t think trying to do that as a profession would go down well from home out of my single garage. 
If you can find suitable premises at a reasonable price I don’t see why it wouldn’t work as long as you didn’t go overboard with costs like employees, tools and equipment etc. there’s also the overheads to consider as it’s a given electricity bills will be costly, plus there’s the other bulshitty stuff like insurance etc.

I suppose you could also diversify a bit in the work you take on and do vehicles, but also a variety of other jobs as required too like metal gates/fencing, general repairs where welding is needed etc etc. depends how far you want to go I supose.

[captain_70s]

I think insurance is a pain, and if you're doing a half decent job the client won't want to pay for it. Especially when a 1" hole ends up being a full sill rotten from the inside out that's too thin to weld to.

If you plate over holes for the MOT I reckon you'll also get folk moaning you did a shit job a year or two down the line when the rest of their sill falls to bits.

[adw1977]

I suppose all car repair work is a high risk for insurance.

And inevitably some customers won't grasp the concept of the full scale of a job not being apparent until you start taking things apart.  Plus the inevitable "I got my car serviced three years ago and now it won't start" type of nonsense.

[Asimo]

  https://www.facebook.com/vehicle.welding.services

Here in the middle of nowhere, this is my local welder. If you can see his Facebook page, scroll down and you will see there is nothing he won’t tackle.

[DodgeRover]

  On 07/12/2024 at 18:16, danthecapriman said:

Tbh, I’d quite like to do that sort of work. Trouble is I don’t have anywhere to do it! 
I’ve got the tools etc but I don’t think trying to do that as a profession would go down well from home out of my single garage. 
If you can find suitable premises at a reasonable price I don’t see why it wouldn’t work as long as you didn’t go overboard with costs like employees, tools and equipment etc. there’s also the overheads to consider as it’s a given electricity bills will be costly, plus there’s the other bulshitty stuff like insurance etc.

I suppose you could also diversify a bit in the work you take on and do vehicles, but also a variety of other jobs as required too like metal gates/fencing, general repairs where welding is needed etc etc. depends how far you want to go I supose.

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Dan are you on RetroRides? There was a bloke on there bought a commercial garage in Wales (you are that way now aren't you?) for not a lot of money. I don't think it's being used at the moment...

[Kiltox]

A specific question every trade insurer asks is “do you do any heat work including welding?”  I assume that makes insurance more expensive than it already is. 

There’s a big difference between slapping a patch on something for a MOT and doing proper restoration work. Imagine customer expectations vary wildly too (and not necessarily how you’d expect)

[SiC]

Even most home insurances won't cover you doing hot work. Countless stories of home restorations going wrong, burning their garage down and the insurance company not picking up the tab. 

[sierraman]

Wooden garage? Not a cat in hells chance they’re insured I’m afraid. There’s money in welding in the sense of someone wanting a floor pan replacing on an E-Type, to have a vehicle like that they’ve got money in the first place to afford a several hundred quid job.
 

Someone on the other hand that’s got a 2004 Astra that’s just failed the test on a foot long hole on the sill probably hasn’t got the money to make it worthwhile as they’ll think it’s a £15 job. 

[Skut]

I can’t see welding up MOT fails being a viable business. The insurance alone  would be prohibitive. Customers will be wittering on about 50p sized holes with no idea about the true extent of the rust. And no idea of the amount of labour involved in even poor repairs.  Then there will be struggles getting people to pay. Overheads etc. 

 

[Lankytim]

  On 07/12/2024 at 20:38, Kiltox said:

A specific question every trade insurer asks is “do you do any heat work including welding?”  I assume that makes insurance more expensive than it already is. 

There’s a big difference between slapping a patch on something for a MOT and doing proper restoration work. Imagine customer expectations vary wildly too (and not necessarily how you’d expect)

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My work uses lots of lorries and trailers and many repair jobs are carried out on site. Any “hot works” like welding needs to be carried out away from the main site on the empty trailer park because of insurance issues. 

[danthecapriman]

  On 08/12/2024 at 08:59, Lankytim said:

My work uses lots of lorries and trailers and many repair jobs are carried out on site. Any “hot works” like welding needs to be carried out away from the main site on the empty trailer park because of insurance issues. 

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I was watching some guy on YouTube welding up an artic trailer, he had to do it all outside and away from pretty much anything. 
Must admit, it looked pretty unpleasant sitting in the wet dirt and gravel, but on the other hand he had loads of space to get under the trailer and the trailer deck provided a basic roof to keep the rain off!😄

Tbh, it’s probably a nice idea of a business but as usual in the UK it’ll be stifled by red tape, excessive costs and wankers in suits who know nothing about the actual subject stopping you and constantly throwing obstacles in your way…     
Ideas are great and all but it’s all for nothing in a cuntry like ours.

[The Old Bloke Next Door]

To progress from the first picture to the second took me and an assistant about 100 hours. The repair panels, paint, mechanical repairs, several new parts and a service cost several hundred pounds at the time.

Due to the fire risk, the interior and fuel tank were removed and the work was done in the open outside of my workshop.

The bill from a commercial garage would not be viable for an old banger.

[2flags]

Many, many years ago I purchased a Rover P6, very cheaply I might add, that had the outside sill welded on. Now anyone who knows these cars knows that this is a bolt-on cover sill. When questioned the reply was that this is the only way to get it through a MoT. Nuff said. Full MoT issued, ran the car for a year, then sold it for what I paid for it. 

[doug]

Watched a short video yesterday of a guy in flip flops welding up an artic trailer standing on top of an oil barrel.  Some sparks must have went into the barrel blowing him and the barrel 20ft in the air. 

[sierraman]

  On 08/12/2024 at 10:07, The Old Bloke Next Door said:

To progress from the first picture to the second took me and an assistant about 100 hours. The repair panels, paint, mechanical repairs, several new parts and a service cost several hundred pounds at the time.

Due to the fire risk, the interior and fuel tank were removed and the work was done in the open outside of my workshop.

The bill from a commercial garage would not be viable for an old banger.

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So about £6000 then in real terms. 

[warch]

Whilst I have absolutely no issue with anyone doing welding or any other repair work on their drive I have to admit I can see the negative in doing it in a residential area.

Fires are a very definite probability especially for lone workers, you can be so absorbed in your work you may not notice a fire starting. Having seen the sheer amount of damage done when a small fire started in my friends garage I would hesitate to describe it as a minor issue, it rapidly took (overheated wiring) then hit the gas bottles next the garage wall which got launched into the adjoining field and gutted half of her bungalow, causing exterior damage to the neighbours house (melting the UPVC window frames, fascias and soffits. Hence why the insurance for this sort of thing this is so dear.

The other issue is reasonableness, you'll soon lose friends and alienate people amongst your neighbours when you are using a grinder all day. As I've previously mentioned on here the bellend across the way from me is often up to all sorts of hours hammering, grinding or with his radio on during the summer, which really isn't on. Spraying and paintwork also really needs proper facilities or some sort of separation even if you're just putting etch primer on, you don't want overspray finding its way onto next door's new car. I live in a completely detached plot, with my nearest neighbour living some forty odd metres away, but I tend to avoid loud noises like angle grinding after about 7 or 8 at night. 

I can see a real issue with clientele. People who need welding doing fall into two camps. People who are trying to keep a now structurally challenged old car going for a few more years, and who almost by default will be doing this to save money won't be happy about a job that costs more than a few hundred quid, and you could easily end up in the £1000s on time and labour if the car is properly rotten. Conversely people who are looking to restore a car have often unrealistically high standards, so a high standard of car bodywork repair skills comes into play. It is often bloody difficult to weld a thin panel and then grind the repair completely flush.

Welding is also bloody expensive, my electricity bill went up sharply after we did all the work on my Land Rover five years ago. 

 

[The Old Bloke Next Door]

  On 08/12/2024 at 11:44, sierraman said:

So about £6000 then in real terms. 

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Around £700 at the time, spring 2009, also included six new tyres, cambelt. kit, water pump, full service and a job lot of obsolete Metro repair panels. Most of the repair panels that were not needed were subsequently sold on.

Over the next eight years mileage increased by around 22,000 with no ftp's or any other repairs needed.

[2flags]

To do the job properly, is very expensive. To strip out the interior, cut out all the rust, treat, prep and do a proper invisible repair takes a lot of time and skill. There was a chap on here, [sorry, can't remember your name off the top of my head,] restored a Ford Consul. Did an absolutely fantastic and amazing job. Works in a vehicle restoration workshop. Had all the tools, facilities, and skilled help to either do the job or for advice on how to do the job. Took hundreds of hours, and if having to pay commercial rates, estimated that it would have cost £80-100k! To slap a quick patch on a sill or a floor is one thing, but once you get into rebuilding chassis and suspension anchorage points then it gets expensive and complicated. 

[MikeR]

driving home after a early shift in Liverpool I still remember the sight of a guy leaning on a gate post , head in arms.....

as a car on jacks blazed away behind him ....

fast forward quite a few years and my daughters Micra went the same way inside a garage when it went in for some mot welding ...  

after the smoke had settled , we just put it down as a mot failure and scrapped it , The garage kindly supplied another car .

having had a few goes at welding up cars and other bits of metal , people who can do this properly deserve some dosh ..

[Scruffy Bodger]

What is the going rate these days? My local garage was charging 50 quid an hour probably 6 years ago.

Welding outside or with the vehicle at waist height is no fun at all, especially when underneath but it can be done. The LDV owner had to be present on fire watch the whole time I worked on it as it was all fitted out as a camper inside, far from ideal. I try to have an air compressor present to blow out flames you can't tamp out by hand and of course an extinguisher.

[danthecapriman]

  On 08/12/2024 at 12:07, warch said:

Fires are a very definite probability especially for lone workers, you can be so absorbed in your work you may not notice a fire starting. Having seen the sheer amount of damage done when a small fire started in my friends garage I would hesitate to describe it as a minor issue, it rapidly took (overheated wiring) then hit the gas bottles next the garage wall which got launched into the adjoining field and gutted half of her bungalow, causing exterior damage to the neighbours house (melting the UPVC window frames, fascias and soffits. Hence why the insurance for this sort of thing this is so dear.

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That is shockingly true! 
Years ago when I was welding my mk2 Granada I had the car up on stands and I was laying on my back under the car welding the floor. Obviously I was wearing leather gloves and my welding visor but I was so engrossed in what I was doing I noticed nothing going on around me. 
Some time later I could smell something burning then felt an incredibly hot sensation down one side of my arm and body! 
I flicked the visor up to be greeted by a roaring fire on my sweatshirt, all down one arm and down my side!! Luckily it had not gone through the t shirt I had on underneath it, but if I hadn’t noticed it would very quickly got very nasty.

It’s funny now, but at the time it was a very close call that could have ended in serious burns and damage. All I lost was the sweatshirt and thankfully the car wasn’t damaged.

[Scruffy Bodger]

  On 08/12/2024 at 13:50, danthecapriman said:

That is shockingly true! 
Years ago when I was welding my mk2 Granada I had the car up on stands and I was laying on my back under the car welding the floor. Obviously I was wearing leather gloves and my welding visor but I was so engrossed in what I was doing I noticed nothing going on around me. 
Some time later I could smell something burning then felt an incredibly hot sensation down one side of my arm and body! 
I flicked the visor up to be greeted by a roaring fire on my sweatshirt, all down one arm and down my side!! Luckily it had not gone through the t shirt I had on underneath it, but if I hadn’t noticed it would very quickly got very nasty.

It’s funny now, but at the time it was a very close call that could have ended in serious burns and damage. All I lost was the sweatshirt and thankfully the car wasn’t damaged.

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My right arm is permanently scarred from welding up a mates v8 Range Rover Bobcat that was about 7 feet from his house. It was coated underneath in old engine oil and mud from a years long oil leak. He was stood behind me on fire watch while I was welding inside the passenger footwell. I felt the warm air coming from underneath, looked at him, he was watching me the daft cunt! I took my T shirt off and tamped the inferno out and boiling hot engine oil dripped on my bicep.

I ran it under the tap for a good few minutes to cool it off but when I tried to remove the oil my skin just slid straight off with it. My payment was 5 gallons of pinched diesel from his works van and a Pirtek T shirt as mine was ruined . 🤪🤣

[neil1971]

  On 08/12/2024 at 12:33, 2flags said:

To do the job properly, is very expensive. To strip out the interior, cut out all the rust, treat, prep and do a proper invisible repair takes a lot of time and skill. There was a chap on here, [sorry, can't remember your name off the top of my head,] restored a Ford Consul. Did an absolutely fantastic and amazing job. Works in a vehicle restoration workshop. Had all the tools, facilities, and skilled help to either do the job or for advice on how to do the job. Took hundreds of hours, and if having to pay commercial rates, estimated that it would have cost £80-100k! To slap a quick patch on a sill or a floor is one thing, but once you get into rebuilding chassis and suspension anchorage points then it gets expensive and complicated. 

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This is probably TripleRich's Granada Coupe thread, absolutely outstanding workmanship and a great read.

[The Old Bloke Next Door]

This was a budget repair on a known reliable car, which when completed I expected to last for at least five years.

Both sills inner and outer, both outer rear wheel arch panels, drivers side rear inner wheel arch, several boot floor patches, front floor both sides adjacent to the jacking points, both rear sub frame front mounting points, both rear jacking points and a patch on the rear valence.

Two fire extinguishers, several buckets of water, first aid kit and two fully charged mobile phones.

[goosey]

The lad who replaced the outer and inner sills on my Jeep charged me £100 a day for his labour, I paid for all materials and had to strip and remove doors myself.

he just does roll cages and chassis repairs now, says it much easier than bodywork 

[cort16]

I used to get the shits welding up some old heap in my lockup knowing the lockup next door contained a 911 GT3 rally car.

Once I stopped welding i'd stay for at least half an hour to make sure nothing was smouldering away.

[2flags]

  On 08/12/2024 at 14:15, neil1971 said:

This is probably TripleRich's Granada Coupe thread, absolutely outstanding workmanship and a great read.

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Yes, it was. As you say the workmanship is fantastic and yes, it's a fantastic read. I was fortunate enough to get a guided tour of Haynes Motor Museum's workshop. They had a Mercedes that was undergoing a full restoration. When I saw it, it was nearing completion. Cost, in the region of £100-£120,000. He had paid £100,000, value now, £180,000.