New shitter. 1982 Citroen VISA.

[jonathan_dyane]

I wouldn’t mess around with the breather at this stage, I’ve known them to cause oil leaks but not starting problems.

[Lankytim]

The more I think about it the more i'm starting to think that the coil is faulty. Earthing the neutral of the LT side should energize the coil and then breaking the earth should produce a spark, right?

[Mr Pastry]

From what you have described the coil must be the prime suspect. 

[Asimo]

  On 10/12/2019 at 14:27, Lankytim said:

The more I think about it the more i'm starting to think that the coil is faulty. Earthing the neutral of the LT side should energize the coil and then breaking the earth should produce a spark, right?

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No. 

Don't earth either side of the LT coil winding with the electronic box connected. No way of knowing which way around the 'box switches, so a risk of shorting the box out and killing it.

In any case, doing as you suggest without a good condensor will not get a spark worth having.

Coil is the most likely, from the symptoms you describe. Typical of the secondary winding shorting because of damp and decrepitude.

******This ignition system was developed by Motorola and they claimed a world first  for  the use of proximity sensors as engine angle sensors for ignition system. Electronically generated advance curve as well.

Feature on it all in the Motorola journal back in 1979.*******

[Lankytim]

In other news, these turned up today! 

[The Moog]

The rover 820 had this issue, yellow spark from coil but not enough to start the bugger.

Northern monkey replaced the spade terminals as they had corroded meaning rubbish connection. Then sprang into life.

[Lankytim]

First of all... it’s still not running! However I’ve managed to fit the headlights, what a doddle! 3x clips per headlight and they just pull out. With the new headlights fitted the Visa suddenly looks much better, a bit less of a breakers yard escapee atleast.

Theres been an issue with rain water entering the interior, of course it turned out the long scuttle drain tube was absolutely rammed with conifer detritus which filled the scuttle with rain water which eventually came into the passenger compartment. The spare wheel “well” unbolts and gives easy access into the cavity beneath the screen scuttle, this was also full of organic mulch. This was a mega satisfying job to do. Hopefully it will result in a totally dry interior! 
 

I knew the flange above the drain tube was a bit crunchy but with the wheel well out I could see that it’s not as bad as I first thought but will need a welded repair. 

[Lankytim]

Many thanks to Castro-Bros for sending me a multimeter! Today I got to work attempting to find out if the coil is working or not...

The primary circuit seems to bounce all over the place, from 125 down to 1.0 Ohms, it sometimes settles around 2.5 but I’m not sure if I’m even using this multimeter correctly. 

In other news the V5c has turned up and the drivers footwell has water in it AGAIN. Disappointing. 

 

EDIT- I've had another play about with this coil and the secondary resistance is  11000 ohms, the primary looks to be 1.0 ohms (when i can get a good reading) According to the Haynes manual it they need to be around 10200 ohms and 0.6 to 0.8 ohms. I'm not sure if the readings I've got a close enough or not. 

 

 

[jonathan_dyane]

Odd question but what colour is the coil? 2cv coils look identical to visa coils but the (not interchangeable) 2cv coil is black and the visa one is brown; it might be the photograph but yours looks black.

[Asimo]

Resistance readings of ignition coils won't identify their most common fault which is a short-circuited turn.  

The coil is literally coils of wire, insulated with varnish. A short circuited turn is where the insulation fails allowing contact between one turn of the wire and the next. This short circuit will sap almost all of the energy that should be in the spark but it will hardly change the readings on an ohm meter at all.

[Stinkwheel]

  On 22/12/2019 at 19:29, jonathan_dyane said:

Odd question but what colour is the coil? 2cv coils look identical to visa coils but the (not interchangeable) 2cv coil is black and the visa one is brown; it might be the photograph but yours looks black.

This. Absolutely 100% you have a 2CV cool there. I was always told years ago by the 2CV guys that a visa coil is no good on a 2CV and a 2CV Coil won’t work properly on a visa in return. I think you may be needing a brown coil sir.


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[500tops]

.

[Lankytim]

  On 22/12/2019 at 19:29, jonathan_dyane said:

Odd question but what colour is the coil? 2cv coils look identical to visa coils but the (not interchangeable) 2cv coil is black and the visa one is brown; it might be the photograph but yours looks black.

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  On 22/12/2019 at 19:43, Stinkwheel said:

 

This. Absolutely 100% you have a 2CV cool there. I was always told years ago by the 2CV guys that a visa coil is no good on a 2CV and a 2CV Coil won’t work properly on a visa in return. I think you may be needing a brown coil sir.


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This is deffo a brown coil, I think the photo just makes it look black. Apparently it ran fine when parked in a hedge 9 years ago. 

[jonathan_dyane]

Ah yes, clearly brown in earlier photograph! Sorry, as you were...

[Stinkwheel]

  On 22/12/2019 at 19:54, Lankytim said:

This is deffo a brown coil, I think the photo just makes it look black. Apparently it ran fine when parked in a hedge 9 years ago. 

Fair enough, pic does look black as you say.


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[Lankytim]

  On 22/12/2019 at 19:50, 500tops said:

.

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If I can diagnose a duff coil this would be my next port of call, I don't want to splash out before I've found out for sure it's knackered. 

[HillmanImp]

I thought a coil was a coil. I've chucked random coils on cars to see if that was the culprit with no ill effects before, I was going to say just chuck one on from something else to test it before buying another. 

[bezzabsa]

  On 22/12/2019 at 22:09, HillmanImp said:

I thought a coil was a coil. I've chucked random coils on cars to see if that was the culprit with no ill effects before, I was going to say just chuck one on from something else to test it before buying another. 

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But French!!!!!!!!

[Mr Pastry]

  On 22/12/2019 at 22:09, HillmanImp said:

I thought a coil was a coil. I've chucked random coils on cars to see if that was the culprit with no ill effects before, I was going to say just chuck one on from something else to test it before buying another. 

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Double-ended coil on the Visa.  You could possibly rig up a separate conventional coil for each cylinder for testing, but they would have to be coils designed for electronic ignition.  Coils for use with points have a higher resistance primary, IIRC about 3 ohms.

[GeordieInExile]

Just how slow is a 652cc Visa, exactly..? If I recall right a 2CV with that engine will just about do 60.

[Mr Pastry]

2CV with a standard 602 engine will do 70.  Mine does, anyway.

[hairnet]

in a hubnut piloted racecar version

it got a lick on with a fat fucker in the back

 

[Stinkwheel]

  On 22/12/2019 at 23:39, Mr Pastry said:

2CV with a standard 602 engine will do 70.  Mine does, anyway.

At least. Every 2CV (and dyane) I’ve ever owned has done 70+



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[HillmanImp]

  On 22/12/2019 at 23:25, Mr Pastry said:

Double-ended coil on the Visa.  You could possibly rig up a separate conventional coil for each cylinder for testing, but they would have to be coils designed for electronic ignition.  Coils for use with points have a higher resistance primary, IIRC about 3 ohms.

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Its not on my 954cc one which is obviously like comparing chalk and cheese. Just a normal 2 prong coil. 

TBH I probably should've looked at the photos as its pretty obvious thats not a normal coil. 

[Lankytim]

I like the idea of rigging up a regular coil to see if I can get a spark, I did have several boxes of shite in the garage which included an electronic coil from a metro or something but I’ve recently had a clear out and binned it!

[Lankytim]

Finally had a clear out of the garage and the Visa is now in the dry for the first time in nearly 10 years. Unfortunately it will get evicted next month when we move house! 

[Stinkwheel]

Now that is a tidy garage!


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[Lankytim]

  On 23/12/2019 at 12:22, Stinkwheel said:

Now that is a tidy garage!


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Don't be fooled, it's now blocked in by boxes and boxes of shite. 

[Stinkwheel]

  On 23/12/2019 at 12:45, Lankytim said:

Don't be fooled, it's now blocked in by boxes and boxes of shite. 

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Glad to hear it. That's more normal. 

[Zelandeth]

You really need the right kit to properly test a coil accurately, but you should be able to get a rough idea with a simple test.

With the coil in situ and power supplied to the LT side, you should get a nice juicy spark between the HT terminal and ground (usually the case) when you disconnect the power supply negative terminal.  It's the collapsing magnetic field due to the interruption of the circuit which generates the "kick." A coil with a faulty secondary will produce a weak or no spark.

EDIT: Use a bit of wire to keep the spark gap to something sensible..."firing" the coil with nothing connected can cause it to flash over internally if the insulation is already a bit past it.

 

Not entirely sure how that will work with a double ended coil like this though... anyone got a schematic?

If you have a decent automotive electrical engineer anywhere near you they would probably have the kit to properly test it... probably for not much, so you could at least rule it out or know it's stuffed.  Probably worth a few quid for the tail chasing it will save.