Scrappies selling fuel

[Cavcraft]

White bread supposedly took the dye out of cherry, but coud be (like so many things) not true at all. Convinced cherry smells differently to normal diesel, could just be me. People must assess the risks I suppose, and I expect plenty get away with it, but it's too much of a risk for my liking.

 

Incidentally, regarding scrappies selling it and it (potentially) not being legal, I'd imagine only for some sort of insurance (storage and licence plus filling up?) reasons, as every time you buy a second hand vehicle it's got fuel in that someone paid duty on. 

[blackboilersuit]

This is true. It was a big problem in Ireland a while back to the extent that it was fuel stations that were selling "washed" red diesel not just people buying a tankful out of the back of a van. The cherry was mixed with an acid that stripped out the dye and then went through another chemical process to neutralize the acid. Trouble was that the fine upstanding citizens running these operations weren't really good at getting the process right and a lot of the washed diesel was very acidic and ate diesel pumps and injectors from the inside out. 

Funnily enough, HMRC reckons that it's removing the dye that causes bother, not running the dyed diesel:

 

2. Laundered fuel is red (or green) diesel, which has been filtered through chemicals or acids to remove the Government marker. The chemicals and acids remain in the fuel and damage fuel pumps in diesel cars.

 

But then, they would say that...

[DodgeRover]

Funnily enough, HMRC reckons that it's removing the dye that causes bother, not running the dyed diesel:

 

 

 

2. Laundered fuel is red (or green) diesel, which has been filtered through chemicals or acids to remove the Government marker. The chemicals and acids remain in the fuel and damage fuel pumps in diesel cars.

But then, they would say that...

When I was at university we figured out it was pretty easy to remove the colour but never got around to running an NMR to check for any other markers.

Despite this I've never (knowingly) run a road vehicle on cherry, wierd concoctions of waste oil etc yes cherry/ kero no.

 

Reselling the fuel isn't legit, as soon as it goes into the scrappies it becomes waste in the same way crossfuel does, needs to be handled and disposed of accordingly.

 

That said where are they and how much is it? If it cheaper than lpg I'll treat the van!

[Pillock]

Is it specifically not legit? As in there's a law about not reselling fuel?

 

I can't see it's any different to going down to the petrol station, filling a can, paying for it (inc. the duty, obvs) and then selling it to a mate for cash. The duty has been paid, the petrol is then your property isn't it?

 

Evading tax through red diesel is another matter though.

[DodgeRover]

Yes as it's become waste and not fuel so is subject to the waste handling requirements.

[Cavcraft]

You can buy second hand batteries and tyres (amongst other things) from scrap yards, so why not fuel?

 

Used to collect 205 litre drums of fuel (and plenty of it) in my last job, from where people had put the wrong type in their car and had it drained out. Wished I known about/owned a 306 diesel with a Bosch pump at the time. could seriously have had free fuel all year round, no danger.

[Pillock]

Yeah, exactly. Scrapyards exist to resell the waste they buy in and then dispose of the rest. Which is why I was wondering whether there was some specific legislation about fuel?

[DodgeRover]

I've been down the cross fuel route and trying to buy it legitimately hence knowing about the waste bit.

Could easily go through a couple of 205l drums with the Fergy tractors

[Supernaut]

If I was going to burn waste fuel, I'd do it with some style.

 

 

A 205l drum might get me to the end of the street if I'm gentle.

[Cavcraft]

I've been down the cross fuel route and trying to buy it legitimately hence knowing about the waste bit.

Could easily go through a couple of 205l drums with the Fergy tractors

 

Mixed/contaminated fuel is probably a different thing altogether, as would imagine most companies who have this have been paid to take it out of vehicles, then pay companies to dispose of it, so once the 'draining' company have it, it's an 'official' waste stream and the EA will want to see proof of disposal.

 

Not saying you're wrong, I hasten to add, just thinking the scrappies would sell it, but maybe under same rules as recovery agents with drums of mixed fuels to dispose of. I would bet some scrap yards do let the odd bit go to mates/regular customers, though. It'd be pretty much impossible to know to the last drop how much each vehicle for scrap contains. 

[AnthonyG]

I'm pretty sure scrapyards selling fuel is illegal for waste-handling and storage reasons.  We never did it in a rural yard in the early 1990s, although the owners, also being farmers, tended to keep on the right side of the law for various reasons.  We had a tank for old oil, and maybe another for stuff like old anti-freeze, but nothing for petrol/diesel.  This being the olden (read lax) days, stuff like brake fluid and antifreeze used to mostly end up on the yard floor when a stripped car was being prepared for squashing.

 

We would drain fuel from cars/vans that came in and it would go in the yard truck or Land Rover and also the assorted farm machinery. It might have made its way into someones car if one of our guys hadn't enough to get home, but it would never be sold to a customer.

 

We didn't deal with write-offs, and hardly anybody would drive in and sell us a car or van that had much left in it anyway, so it would be very rare to get a vehicle with more than a fifth of a tankful.  If we did it would something we had to go out and get with the hiab truck.  Neither of the owners ran their regular or wife's cars on secondhand fuel, so maybe they were concerned about the quality of petrol drained from a old heap that had probably been sitting on a farmyard for several years! 

[DodgeRover]

I would bet some scrap yards do let the odd bit go to mates/regular customers, though. It'd be pretty much impossible to know to the last drop how much each vehicle for scrap contains.

Oh they do for regulars, I know a guy who has a petrol spec lift who always brims it in the yard as no one else going in has a petrol vehicle to use it in!

[sierraman]

I hope you don’t use the one I do to dispose of my old cars. Past 2 I’ve weighed in I’ve filled the fuel tank after draining it with old used engine oil and whatever liquid crap I needed shut of.

[Wack]

Aparrently when the fuel strikes were on 15 years ago customs and excise relaxed the rules on red for taxi drivers as long as they paid the duty , only they paid the duty on one tank and ran round for weeks with the receipt in the glove box .

[cort1977]

I would guess that somewhere there is a regulation that reselling fuel except at a licensed filling station is illegal as well as the issue about waste streams and so on mentioned above.

 

It's been going on quietly for as long as there have been cars but advertising the fact on facebook seems particularly short-sighted.

[D Spares & Tyres]

No you then get done for using 'black diesel'.EG heating oil.Staining from use of red lasts about 6 months.

Nope

 

Red doesn't stain

 

Heating oil is clear.

 

HMRC can use a carbon swab from the exhaust pipe to determine what it's been burning.

[wuvvum]

Yup, did that with a 480 I scrapped.

Except I also did it to the interior of the car below the window line.

He must have shit himself when he opened the door at the yard.

I'm impressed that a scrap 480 was watertight enough to be able to do that.

[Rave]

If you run a car for the road on cherry you deserve all you get, sorry.

 

 

Yup, did that with a 480 I scrapped.

Except I also did it to the interior of the car below the window line.

He must have shit himself when he opened the door at the yard.

 

Just so we're clear then, defrauding the government is wrong but defrauding a private business is OK, yeah?

[Fumbler]

If you're on a farm, great. Register your diesel pickup or SUV (even economy car is the people are blind) as a farm asset and you're good to go on the red stuff. If the law's not as observant in your area and your scrappie wants to make a quick quid, go for it as long as the coast is [and the rozzers are] clear.

That's what I see from this. It can work, for some places.

[Tamworthbay]

If you're on a farm, great. Register your diesel pickup or SUV (even economy car is the people are blind) as a farm asset and you're good to go on the red stuff. If the law's not as observant in your area and your scrappie wants to make a quick quid, go for it as long as the coast is [and the rozzers are] clear.

That's what I see from this. It can work, for some places.

But you can still be pulled on the road as there are only specific exemptions such as hedge cutting and snow clearing, not that any farmers I know have ever given a toss. The only thing on legit diesel is usually the Land Rover as they know there is a reasonable chance they will get dipped.

[Fumbler]

I'm not surprised they didn't give a toss given what they get in return for growing a specific crop for a specific power station, however if you can register your land vehicle/daily driver as a farm asset I cannot see why the police can decide to press charges on you.

[Bren]

Fuller's earth myth is bollocks - on a par with Stan Laurel being Clint Eastwood's dad and Bob Holdness playing the sax on baker st.

[DodgeRover]

I'm not surprised they didn't give a toss given what they get in return for growing a specific crop for a specific power station, however if you can register your land vehicle/daily driver as a farm asset I cannot see why the police can decide to press charges on you.

This has been clarified a lot in the last 10 years from memory:

Needs to be correctly registered as limited use, (mot and tax exempted) no more than x miles from the farm and no more than y miles covered a week on the road, must be kept roadworthy at all times only to be used going from the farm to a parcel of land to another then on to another and back. May be run on rebated fuel. Can't be used for general duties etc.

[Tamworthbay]

And the ‘why would they press charges’ is simple - money, it’s an easy one to prove, money in the coffers and another ‘crime solved’

[Simonsays]

Is being dipped for the red stuff a regional thing?

 

I've never been dipped in the 350k miles I've done in diesel cars in and around the north east. Even though I've been stopped a few times for road safety inspections.

[alcyonecorporation]

Just so we're clear then, defrauding the government is wrong but defrauding a private business is OK, yeah?

Given that it all drained out when he opened the doors, yeah.

 

Worth a go. A bit like running a car on cherry - till you get dipped.

[Fumbler]

Is being dipped for the red stuff a regional thing?

 

I've never been dipped in the 350k miles I've done in diesel cars in and around the north east. Even though I've been stopped a few times for road safety inspections.

They'll be onto you like wildfire now!

[Wack]

I think you're very unlikely to get dipped in a car , in a commercial if they find red they can assume you've not paid vat and duty on all of your diesel for the last 6 years and send you a huge bill , it's then up to you to prove you've been using white .

[alcyonecorporation]

I think you're very unlikely to get dipped in a car , in a commercial if they find red they can assume you've not paid vat and duty on all of your diesel for the last 6 years and send you a huge bill , it's then up to you to prove you've been using white .

Admittedly, the van I was running round in did look awful.

[bigstraight6]

Is being dipped for the red stuff a regional thing?

I've never been dipped in the 350k miles I've done in diesel cars in and around the north east. Even though I've been stopped a few times for road safety inspections.

I’ve never been dipped down here in the Wild West either, I suspect there’s loads at it down here....