invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[Jazoli]

  On 22/09/2024 at 07:01, Mr Pastry said:

Dez, I am mostly sympathetic to your activities, as I think you know, but with due respect, you are taking all this a bit too seriously. 

AIUI, and I haven't read it all because I am rather busy, you are complaining because Invacars do not have a specific model code but are lumped in with other miscellaneous vehicles?  So what?  You can get your Invacar registered for road use with the correct details on the V5, surely that is what matters?

I suggest that the DVLA have reasons for doing things which are not evident to outsiders, even someone with your extensive knowledge of the system.  They are probably not even that bothered about a few miscellanous vehicles among the millions they have to deal with.

I'd also point out that nobody likes an outsider with not much practical experience telling them that they are not doing their job properly.  Maybe they are not, but rule no. 1 in life, don't piss people off.  

I hope you can get REV back on the road soon and start using it because you will rapidly acquire a sense of proportion, I can't think how else to put it.  You will discover its limitations as well as its good points, and you will find, as most of us do, that it is a full- time job keeping an old car going and the paperwork pales into insignificance.  

 

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I wish I had the luxury of time to obsess about minutia like this, but like many I have to work, the folk at the DVLA must be thinking who the fuck is this guy? They manage tens of millions of vehicle records and honestly will not give a flying fuck about some anachronism from the 70’s that should have been scrapped and removed from history.

the DVLA have been very generous in replying, but seriously?? 

LBF you need to find something useful to channel your skills into, not pestering the DVLA, do they have remote working so you can get an in?

When are you having it delivered for you to start using it as a daily yet?

[chadders]

  On 22/09/2024 at 06:01, LightBulbFun said:

to save space there, every vehicle record stored on the DVLA computer is stored in coded form and decoded via a lookup table, this is why for example you never see the colour field with any miss-spellings int, for example "Yellow" miss-typed as Tellow or something the such like, since when a vehicle is setup many of the options are only able to be chosen from a pre-set drop down list of codes, 

only the make field has the option for someone to manually enter a custom string, to cater for all the obscure vehicles out there

this FOI response by the DVLA explicitly makes reference to them, as does this bulk data brochure 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/how_many_avante_kit_cars_are_lef/response/538401/attach/2/FOIR4052 Dave Jee.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/253211/V995X1_Bulk_Data_Brochure__18.10.13_.pdf

for example if you have ever wondered what the "For official use" sections on the V62 and V55 forms is for, thats where the DVLA clerk would fill in the make model, colour, taxation class codes etc

I am able to further verify that this is a lookup table issue, because services which work with the make/model codes directly, and then use their own lookup table to decode them, are not as effected by the issue

for example the DVSA's MOT checker which uses its own lookup table, still correctly reports INVACAR

AFAIK no major system changed happened, but what I do note happen at the time was the DVLA updated their coded system/look up table with a bunch of mobility scooter manufactures, to go with updated government guidance/documentation on Mobility scooters (this is when the V55/MV form was introduced for example)

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/338/#comment-2879178

and this is where I suspect the whole thing stems from, since of Invacare is/was a Mobility scooter manufacture/supplier, I imagine that when someone went to add INVACARE to the DVLA system they saw "INVACAR" and thought, that Invacar in itself was a typo of Invacare if you follow, so they just put an E on the end and called it good, that person obviously not realising that Invacar and Invacare are completely separate things entirely 

since a V5 is very solid evidence/proof that the make code ZA has *not* always been for INVACARE as the person who responded to my latest letter is  currently claiming (MHJ22P, TWC725K, and most other Invacars are still part of the coded system and have not had their record further messed with like has happened with REV's,)

(I have the additional issue with REV in that they pulled her from the coded system all together, so for example if you look up REV on the ULEZ checker she no longer shows up properly at all)

all they have to do is just remove the E from the lookup table entry for ZA, and it would fix itself pretty much*

its really no different to how the DVLA add new make or model codes, every time a new manufacture/brand or model comes to market 

*and for REV add her back to the coded system, which is also not a problem

 

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These are famous last words, 'pretty much' being the killer probably. You don't 'wing it' with this type of system in my experience.

So it's virtually all guesswork on your behalf then and you're expecting the DVLA helpdesk to make a case to their I.T. colleagues to make a change over one letter for one person? If I'd done that when I managed a helpdesk I'd never live it down and anything I'd asked for would be put at the bottom of the to do pile.

I think Warren's Esther Rantzen post sums it up.

[plasticvandan]

Given the hazy nature of how these vehicles were accepted back on to the road (and the theft of gov owned vehicles being brushed aside) I wouldn't be hassling them too much.

[chadders]

That's a very good point, I used to have to produce stats, to senior management, about the number of queries my help desk dealt with every week.

If the numbers weren't too good this sort of query would be highlighted as the sort of time consuming shit we had to deal with.

[Christine]

Is the new  one belonging to Oh no what have i done , now an Invacare too ? 

Sue the DVLA ..

[barefoot]

  On 22/09/2024 at 07:36, lesapandre said:

I assume its declared as automatic on your insurance.

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It's insured as a manual, but I did declare that it's misdescribed on its V5c

[calebaaront]

I have a MK1 Honda Express and for some strange reason the DVLA has labelled it as a MK2. It doesn’t bother me and infact I’ve forgotten about it. It’s just one of those things unfortunately. People still recognise your invacar as being an invacar, it says invacar on the badge. For the people who don’t know what it is when you’re out and about like at shows etc you just tell them it’s an invacar. 

[adw1977]

  On 22/09/2024 at 06:01, LightBulbFun said:

all they have to do is just remove the E from the lookup table entry for ZA, and it would fix itself pretty much

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But then all the genuine Invacares would become Invacars!

[cort1977]

Dez, I think I'm like lots of people on here, we admire your dedication but worry you might get lost in the detail at times.

The main thing is you will soon have a working Invacar on the road, no one (least of all the dvla) will care what's on the logbook, just drive and enjoy your car.

[LightBulbFun]

  On 22/09/2024 at 12:36, adw1977 said:

But then all the genuine Invacares would become Invacars!

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this is where things get really frustrating once more, because from what I can tell there *is* a dedicated make and model code for Invacare Mobility scooters! 

 

see the way make model codes work on the DVLA is they are tiered, you have a make code thats unique, then a 3 digit model code, and this model code is placed *under* the make code

so model codes can be re-used, 001 under Austin will be something different for 001 under Ford.

 

now the thing about the DVLA system is such that, you can enter  a custom field under the generic G9 code, but you cant have a custom model string entered *at all* it either all goes on the make field, or no model info at all if theres no code for it

 

so lets say you import an *Austin* Marina from the USA because this is autoshite when you register it, the DVLA will register it as an Austin, but it will have no model information recorded, since there is model code for Marina, Under Austin

its why @Kiltox's Fiat Panda 30 does not Say Panda 30 on the logbook, since theres just no code for "Panda 30" its a vehicle model we never got here officially so the DVLA never made a code for it

 

now going back to Invacars, their make Code ZA, only has 1 model code under it and thats 000 which the generic model code given to all coded makes where the vehicles are too niche to bother recording each individual model and also give some of the more obscure vehicles of the big makes somewhere to go,

basically this was to say, there is no model recorded, and this was fine for the way old V5's where laid out, note how it says "model/type" in this case the vehicle body type took the place of the vehicle model

 

and a great resource for seeing what is and is not coded with the DVLA is howmanyleft since they work just datasets provided by the DVLA, and as explained in the FOI, these datasets only contain details on vehicle make/models which are coded with the DVLA

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/browse

and see how indeed the only coded model under Invacar is "Model missing" ie code 000, the MOT checker intepreates code "000" as Unknown while the V5 system just interperpates it as *blank* alls good there

 

but when the DVLA setup all the make codes for mobility scooter manufactuers, they just gave them 1 Model code, not even 000 "model not coded" just "Mobility Vehicle" and note above! that Invacar and Invacare are listed as separate manufactures 

and if you click on Invacare, low and behold there is just "Mobility Vehicle"

so they *did* give Invacare its own make code, but they *still* fucked up the Invacar one! 

 

and you can further verify this, by looking up Q120DAR on the DVSA's system ,which does correctly come up as a Invacare Mobility vehicle 

and for those wondering, vehicles which are *not* part of the coded system just have their manufacture repeated twice in both the make and model fields

 

 

and with this just to be safe! I checked the DVLA's own CSV files and Invacare Mobility scooters *are* listed separately, so this tells me, that yes someone has fucked up the lookup table for the main vehicle data handling system (ie the system handles  that displaying vehicle information online, and all the printed documents like V5's and tax reminders etc, I did confirm this error happens on actual paperwork too, thankfully at least whatever setup the DVLA uses to produce these bulk datasets does not also have a messed up lookup table!)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/664385f0993111924d9d3454/df_VEH0124_NZ.csv

so the whole issue about "what about genuine Invacre mobiltiy scooters" again is not really an issue! (in fact whats more of an issue is before this whole thing happened, I noticed a fair few Mobility scooters had incorrectly been registered under the Invacar make code!)

[R Lutz]

How does all this effect you getting into and driving it back from Scotland? Or driving it anywhere, anytime soon.

[warren t claim]

I'm sure I've seen one of these registered as a Reliant to get past the fact that it is  essentially an unreported stolen vehicle. 

[warren t claim]

  On 22/09/2024 at 16:13, warren t claim said:

essentially an unreported stolen vehicle. 

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A fact that you may want to bear in mind if the unthinkable happens and you injured a pedestrian due to a mechanical failure. The Ministry Of Health, DHSS,DWP paid taxpayers money to have them scrapped. 

[lesapandre]

All old cars are terminally dangerous in modern terms but still allowed on the road as historic vehicles - as long as the vehicle is properly insured  and maintained it not an issue.

[warren t claim]

  On 22/09/2024 at 16:51, lesapandre said:

All old cars are terminally dangerous in modern terms but still allowed on the road as historic vehicles - as long as the vehicle is properly insured  and maintained it not an issue.

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But weren't acquired somewhere down the line by dubious means. 

[LightBulbFun]

  On 22/09/2024 at 15:51, R Lutz said:

How does all this effect you getting into and driving it back from Scotland? Or driving it anywhere, anytime soon.

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living in Central London means I have to deal with a lot of toll and road charging systems, most if not all of which work with vehicle make and model codes

 

case in point if I go to try and pay for a dart charge I get this

funnily enough the Dart Charges lookup table is thankfully not messed up so an Invacar thats still part of the coded system does still show up properly 

(again if you look up VJN953S with the main DVLA system it incorrectly comes back as "INVACARE" again this further proof that it is a look up table issue)

Remember my issue I have is 2 fold here, 1 they fucked up the lookup table for Invacar, and 2 with REV specifically, they removed her from the coded system, which presents issues when using online services that rely on the coded system as above

what about when the Silvertown tunnel opens and the Blackwall tunnel is tolled? 

 

or for example when putting her through the ULEZ checker, she used to show up just fine

then they fucked up the lookup table 

and now because they removed REV from the coded system entirely, she does not show up properly at all anymore just as a "Blue" 

so I hope this serves a sufficient demonstration why these codes are import and why its important to get them right and ensure that a vehicle is associated with the right codes where possible 

[calebaaront]

Surely tolls would still work as they should even if your make and model is incorrect as the ANPR cameras only use your number plate and doesn’t essentially need your make and model. As long as you can still pay online using your reg number then it should be okay 

[captain_70s]

Should that not be negated by it being registered as a historic vehicle for ULEZ stuff?

With toll roads etc, surely it'll just need your reg as a reference rather than needing specific details?

[busmansholiday]

Come on Dez, the most important thing here is ;

a) when is REV returning from Jockland?, 

b) when will you be going to the chippy in her (without seized brakes) and will it be fish and chips or that rock eel shit they serve in the smoke ?.

[R Lutz]

  On 22/09/2024 at 17:01, LightBulbFun said:

living in Central London means I have to deal with a lot of toll and road charging systems, most if not all of which work with vehicle make and model codes

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I'm failing to see how this stops you collecting it and using it? The reg number is recognised, that's the crucial bit here. 

[D.E]

  On 22/09/2024 at 17:01, LightBulbFun said:

and now because they removed REV from the coded system entirely, she does not show up properly at all anymore just as a "Blue" 

so I hope this serves a sufficient demonstration why these codes are import and why its important to get them right and ensure that a vehicle is associated with the right codes where possible 

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I don't understand. Nothing seems to change except for the name of the vehicle, so how could this stop you from entering these areas then?

[lesapandre]

  On 22/09/2024 at 16:58, warren t claim said:

But weren't acquired somewhere down the line by dubious means. 

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Yea - they are out there looking for them...

                               I N V A R U N N ER

“I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Invacars on fire on the hard shoulder of the M1. I've watched turquoise glitter in the dark near the Blackwall Tunnel. All those moments will be lost in time, like exhaust smoke in the rain."

[Saabnut]

  On 22/09/2024 at 17:15, busmansholiday said:

Come on Dez, the most important thing here is ;

a) when is REV returning from Jockland?, 

b) when will you be going to the chippy in her (without seized brakes) and will it be fish and chips or that rock eel shit they serve in the smoke ?.

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a - within the next 3 weeks all being well

b - soon after that!

[Christine]

As an Invacare , you might get away  with driving on the pavement !  Bonus ! 

[adw1977]

  On 22/09/2024 at 16:58, warren t claim said:

But weren't acquired somewhere down the line by dubious means. 

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LBF's Invacar was never a government owned vehicle, it was bought privately when new.  So no worries about dubious ownership status.

[Christine]

  On 22/09/2024 at 18:33, Saabnut said:

a - within the next 3 weeks all being well

b - soon after that!

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Only 21 more sleeps !  

[plasticvandan]

  On 22/09/2024 at 19:06, adw1977 said:

LBF's Invacar was never a government owned vehicle, it was bought privately when new.  So no worries about dubious ownership status.

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Won't bode well for all the other owners out there though.

[big_al_granvia]

lot of agg over an E, okay some might say you must be on a E to think about them but hey ho its what your into. talking about e. this song came into my 'ead

 

[warren t claim]

  On 22/09/2024 at 19:06, adw1977 said:

LBF's Invacar was never a government owned vehicle, it was bought privately when new.  So no worries about dubious ownership status.

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When were these sold to the public? Who were the dealers? What was the list price? Did potential buyers have to visit their nearest AC showroom and wheel themselves between their stock of used Cobras and carefully squeeze past the AC427 Fura demonstrator before trying to hammer out a deal with their salesman? Did the AC dealer have a Model 70 courtesy car signwritten with COME AND TEST DRIVE THE NEW AC 3000ME AT BOLLOCKS AND BAGSHIT MOTORS?

I think we need to be told.

What about when the owner of the Model 70 decided to see the light and get himself a Mk2 Escort Popular Plus disabled special with extended seat runners and wide tunnel but not a GCAT shell as everyone says they are automatic? Was the Model 70 ever listed in Glass's Guide for a part ex price? I do remember Rod Leach's garage Nostalgia running adverts in classic car mags back in the early 80s saying ACs bought for cash. 

[somewhatfoolish]

Minus 1 tripod trivia point, Mr. Claim; Invacars were made by Invacar at Thundersley. 🤣