invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[Mr Pastry]

46 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

this talk of top speed is something I just want to find out for information sake so I have that datapoint for the datasheet so to speak

Have you tried the calculator I posted earlier?  Frontal area I reckon 20 or 21 square feet, take the Cd as 0.34 initially, and you can play around with the numbers and relate power to maximum speed.  http://www.stealthmotorsport.co.uk/horsepower.html

 

[LightBulbFun]

3 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Have you tried the calculator I posted earlier?  Frontal area I reckon 20 or 21 square feet, take the Cd as 0.34 initially, and you can play around with the numbers and relate power to maximum speed.  http://www.stealthmotorsport.co.uk/horsepower.html

 

Ooh ill have to play around with that! sorry I missed it the first time round, I think it got lost in the noise so to speak  

 

say @Yoss you dont have any aerodynamic figures for a Routemaster do you?

[chadders]

27 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Have you tried the calculator I posted earlier?  Frontal area I reckon 20 or 21 square feet, take the Cd as 0.34 initially, and you can play around with the numbers and relate power to maximum speed.  http://www.stealthmotorsport.co.uk/horsepower.html

 

Given that a lot of publicity was given to the Audi 100s 0.30 Cd and Sierras 0.34(?) I personally think 0.34 is too low, especially given the age and type of car. Even a 635CSi of that era was 0.40, OK the nose inclination wouldn't have helped but it wouldn't make a massive difference in my opinion. Even an early Golf was 0.43 apparently. Obviously these are just Cds and take no account of the frontal area.

[SiC]

38 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

according to google maps, its only about 15 minutes difference between non-motorway and motorway, about 1:45 vs 2 hours

Looking at a map, which way would you think about going? I'm just having idle thoughts of imaginary planning in my mind as if I was doing it. 

Motorway is obvious as A1/M1 then off on the A5 at Luton across country. But then you're on the UKs busiest motorway and there is zero room for error, mistakes or mechanical malarkey - even in a modern. Old car you need to be 110% confident it will perform. Tbh even in a modern, with limited driving experience (especially motorway) I'd avoid it as we don't want you smashed up. Given the amount of accidents along there, it's a real possibility - not your own doing but someone else's and not being experienced enough to see it happen before hand to take evasive action.

Non motorway to me looks to be a lot of dual carriageway and that is far worse than motorway. There is no where to stop if you have problems. Also shorter slip roads when coming off and on, making it very hard on the brakes/need to accelerate hard. All fine in a modern but you'll be pushing an old car hard. That's when they like to break.

At least on the M1 smart motorway you have some chance of them shutting a lane off automatically where as a 70mph dual carriageway there will be nothing and nowhere to get over. I mean it's like saying whether it's nicer to be punched in the face or in the stomach. Better off neither if it can be helped!

A41 is 70mph dual carriageway pretty much as soon as you hit Watford and run parallel with the M1. 

A40 is 70mph dual carriageway pretty much as you start to leave London. At least once at the M25 ring you can at least go on the A413 though and pass through Aylesbury.

Only way to have a route avoiding fast roads would be past Wembley way then aim between Ruislip/Rickmansworth to get onto the A413. That's becoming very quickly 3hr+ journey, especially if you hit any slow traffic.

[Yoss]

47 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Ooh ill have to play around with that! sorry I missed it the first time round, I think it got lost in the noise so to speak  

 

say @Yoss you dont have any aerodynamic figures for a Routemaster do you?

I'd say marginally worse than an RT and marginally better than a DMS. Does that help?

[JJ0063]

https://www.facebook.com/share/97Dz7zHRkEuGKKrj/?mibextid=79PoIi

[UltraWomble]

15 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

thank you very much for sharing these photos with me, its fun how new stuff like this is still coming out of the woodwork over 5 years sine this thread started  

 

BTW there was also a Stanley Argson hiding in the crowd too which was pretty fun to see in it own right  it would of been about 20 years old already in that photo!

 

I think its really nice how the disabled & elderly all have spaces at the front, something that seemed to be sadly lacking in the 2012 Guild.

Perhaps the council will learn for the 2032 Guild.

[Dobloseven]

25 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

That every hour or 2 theres somewhere for me to pull off and recuperate for a bit 

 

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[BorniteIdentity]

1 hour ago, SiC said:

A41 is 70mph dual carriageway pretty much as soon as you hit Watford and run parallel with the M1. 

There is a fantastic downhill stretch on the A41, pretty much all the way from Berkhamsted to the M25.  Someone got collared doing 124 there a few years back, and a century is easily achieved; even by a football innocently rolling down the hardshoulder.

Anyway, what's the challenge? I get lost in the endless walls of text.  If it's how to go from LBF HQ to the FoD, then I'd use the A41 100%.  It's quite a pleasant road (lovely in parts) and you'd rarely be in anyone's way bimbling along at 45.

[egg]

It's going across inner London that takes so much time normally isn't it - unless you're heading straight out of the centre on e.g. Westway/A127/M11/A2

[wuvvum]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

say @Yoss you dont have any aerodynamic figures for a Routemaster do you?

Cd ∞.0

[barefoot]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

 ...anyone who actually achieved whatever the figure is on a public road would be reluctant to admit to it, since it would be self incriminating 

I'm pretty sure that I read on the interweb that an indicated (and therefore presumably 100% accurate) 92 mph was achieved.

Certainly, there's now a couple of web references to 92 mph, which will helpfully begin to show up in google searches before long.

[chadders]

12 minutes ago, BorniteIdentity said:

There is a fantastic downhill stretch on the A41, pretty much all the way from Berkhamsted to the M25.  Someone got collared doing 124 there a few years back, and a century is easily achieved; even by a football innocently rolling down the hardshoulder.

Anyway, what's the challenge? I get lost in the endless walls of text.  If it's how to go from LBF HQ to the FoD, then I'd use the A41 100%.  It's quite a pleasant road (lovely in parts) and you'd rarely be in anyone's way bimbling along at 45.

It's a long time since I lived near Tring but suspect that I'd turn off the A41 towards Ashridge, assuming the FoD is Buckingham way. Mind you I'm not certain how an invacare would stand up to being hit by a deer as the ones there can just run out of the trees by the side of the road.

[LightBulbFun]

28 minutes ago, barefoot said:

I'm pretty sure that I read on the interweb that an indicated (and therefore presumably 100% accurate) 92 mph was achieved.

Certainly, there's now a couple of web references to 92 mph, which will helpfully begin to show up in google searches before long.

a Model 70 speedo only has graduations for up to 86Mph 

or 80Mph 

depending on the age of the vehicle, so I have no idea where you got 92Mph from! even if you did such a speed you would have no way of knowing without an external speedo/speed trap of some kind, so any reports of doing 92Mph probably hearsay id say 

 

 

tho they dont have an end stop, so I guess you could take one back round to 0 from behind LOL pretty sure mind at that sort of speed you would also have to be declaring your altitude to Air traffic control mind...

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, SiC said:

Looking at a map, which way would you think about going? I'm just having idle thoughts of imaginary planning in my mind as if I was doing it. 

Motorway is obvious as A1/M1 then off on the A5 at Luton across country. But then you're on the UKs busiest motorway and there is zero room for error, mistakes or mechanical malarkey - even in a modern. Old car you need to be 110% confident it will perform. Tbh even in a modern, with limited driving experience (especially motorway) I'd avoid it as we don't want you smashed up. Given the amount of accidents along there, it's a real possibility - not your own doing but someone else's and not being experienced enough to see it happen before hand to take evasive action.

Non motorway to me looks to be a lot of dual carriageway and that is far worse than motorway. There is no where to stop if you have problems. Also shorter slip roads when coming off and on, making it very hard on the brakes/need to accelerate hard. All fine in a modern but you'll be pushing an old car hard. That's when they like to break.

At least on the M1 smart motorway you have some chance of them shutting a lane off automatically where as a 70mph dual carriageway there will be nothing and nowhere to get over. I mean it's like saying whether it's nicer to be punched in the face or in the stomach. Better off neither if it can be helped!

A41 is 70mph dual carriageway pretty much as soon as you hit Watford and run parallel with the M1. 

A40 is 70mph dual carriageway pretty much as you start to leave London. At least once at the M25 ring you can at least go on the A413 though and pass through Aylesbury.

Only way to have a route avoiding fast roads would be past Wembley way then aim between Ruislip/Rickmansworth to get onto the A413. That's becoming very quickly 3hr+ journey, especially if you hit any slow traffic.

not sure exactly how I would go about it, I mean that was just from plugging in 2 post codes in to google maps and see what it spits out

for an actual trip, i was thinking I would consult with my mum first, she knows London and the surrounding area so to speak, like the back of her Hand

I made the mistake of showing her this video 

 

thinking "oh she will enjoy the nostalgia of London from 25 years ago" 

but no, she just spent the entire 1 hour video shouting at my screen about how they where going the completely wrong route to get to where they said they where going to/ended up going to LOL

 

but its good to hear what other peoples thoughts on it are  

[Mr Pastry]

2 hours ago, chadders said:

Given that a lot of publicity was given to the Audi 100s 0.30 Cd and Sierras 0.34(?) I personally think 0.34 is too low, especially given the age and type of car. Even a 635CSi of that era was 0.40, OK the nose inclination wouldn't have helped but it wouldn't make a massive difference in my opinion. Even an early Golf was 0.43 apparently. Obviously these are just Cds and take no account of the frontal area.

Yes I'd be surprised if its as low as 0.34, certainly won't be any less.

[chadders]

46 minutes ago, barefoot said:

I'm pretty sure that I read on the interweb that an indicated (and therefore presumably 100% accurate) 92 mph was achieved.

Certainly, there's now a couple of web references to 92 mph, which will helpfully begin to show up in google searches before long.

Even though it's a higher speed than the max shown on the speedo if the speedometers are as accurate as said you could surely extrapolate a few extra mph, it's hardly likely to suddenly go logarithmic from linear is it?

[Mr Pastry]

Just on a quick look at the calculator, taking Cd = 0.4, frontal area = 20 sq ft,  weight = 500kg, 70mph requires 20.3 hp. which seems about right.  Then 92mph requires 44.2 hp.

[chadders]

I'm not certain if this makes sense but I'm sure someone will say if it doesn't.

Won't a trike have a larger frontal area and worse Cd as with a normal car the air coming from the front only 'sees' 2 wheels, the rear pair being behind the front ones? With a trike you'll have 3 along with additional suspension and steering in the airflow.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Drag coefficient results are a bit of a head scratcher. 

35 years ago the Calibra achieved 0.26

Folksfarken's I.D 4 which in term of aerodynamics looks slightly closer to the shape of a brick with some curves has a surprising result of 0.28. 

[Mr Pastry]

Frontal area I have just assumed max height x max width.  The air coming from the front hits all of it somewhere, and not much will go underneath.  Cd is more complicated and depends on how slippery the shape is, including how the air breaks away behind, so the shape of the tail matters.  Cd can often be improved significantly by attention to detail - deleting things like roof gutters and external mirrors.    I don't think a trike is necessarily worse than a 4 wheeler. 

[Snake Charmer]

@LightBulbFun  there might be a spare 180mph Smiths speedo knocking about at work you could fit for fun, period correct and of similar heritage! 😁

I  would like to see you in it at Brooklands this year at one of the events. 👍

[Christine]

The hill climb ...

[Christine]

Anyway , he hasn't yet got it back , it might be another year..and the king pin isn't safe for high speed 

[Snake Charmer]

3 minutes ago, Christine said:

The hill climb ...

Crossed my mind a matter of minutes ago! 

[beko1987]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

yeah its exactly just that!  theres so much mystery surrounding it, and you know me Im a stickler for the facts and figures, so it really bugs me that no one has a straight answer

and yeah I think part of the problem is, if its faster then the NSL, then I guess anyone who actually achieved whatever the figure is on a public road would be reluctant to admit to it, since it would/could be self incriminating yourself?

 

although that would be one hell of a speed ticket to frame on the wall LOL or maybe it might get thrown out because no one would actually believe a Model 70 can go that quickly and it must of been an equipment fault, (although I imagine these days, its all issued automatically without any human intervention?) 

(somewhere in the bus thread is a driver in a double decker bus getting pulled for doing 90 something Mph and the judge throwing it out because he just could not believe a double decker bus could go that fast! obviously I dont know how true that story is or not, but it amuses me ) 

according to google maps, its only about 15 minutes difference between non-motorway and motorway, about 1:45 vs 2 hours

 

I think most of the 2 hours it says the trip will take is is simply the escape from New York London bit, rather then the drive to the FoD itself, if that makes sense?

from where I live it can take easily 2 hours just to get to the M25 for example, when I was learning to drive I wanted to do some motorway lessons since they made it legal a few years back, but my driving instructor just said "no way we can make it to a motorway and back within a single 2 hour lesson"

well there are some former motorways nearby I have driven on what used to be the A102(M) but everything is 50Mph speed limits max.

 

2 hours is my max in any car I have found, or at least any of my driving instructors, so thats how I would plan my trips, make sure that every hour or 2 theres somewhere for me to pull off and recuperate for a bit 

(this is one of the reasons I really want to try a 2CV here in Central London, I was surpassingly pain-free in one at the FoD, but I was literally driving that flat out, there was little dancing of the legs, so I have to wonder if things might be a different proposition  if I tried on here at home)

My offer still stands when you get it driving. I'll meet you outside the ulez somewhere and can be your personal rear crash protection/indicators/"fuck off prick" to the car behind for your first drive to the FoD until you get used to it. 

Driving it around london would be fine*, far scarier when your get out to the country and everyone speeds up. I'm driving to Kentish town tomorrow and know that once we get up to Perivale if we go above 40 we're doing well. Be more like 25 (and dad's car will still insist on firing up the engine for 4 seconds before shutting it off and going back to eV just in time for the next set of lights despite be being as gentle and slow pulling away as is humanly possible to be for the entire journey 😂) 

[Snake Charmer]

6 minutes ago, Christine said:

Anyway , he hasn't yet got it back , it might be another year..and the king pin isn't safe for high speed 

I hope it doesn’t take that long, I would like to see him have some fun in it soon.

[chadders]

2 hours ago, Christine said:

The hill climb ...

With a few mods?

I'm not certain RED5 has access to JATO rockets though.

 

[Jim Bergerac]

4 hours ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Folksfarken's I.D 4 which in term of aerodynamics looks slightly closer to the shape of a brick with some curves has a surprising result of 0.28. 

Lot of newer cars have aerodynamic tricks, things like those vents at the front of the car directing air under the wheel arches. Basically the culmination of decades of learning from where we were with the Calibra where the only idea was to have a slippery shape which means that housebrick shaped ID4s are not far off that. 

[Christine]

4 hours ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Drag coefficient results are a bit of a head scratcher. 

35 years ago the Calibra achieved 0.26

Folksfarken's I.D 4 which in term of aerodynamics looks slightly closer to the shape of a brick with some curves has a surprising result of 0.28. 

Ah , but only when the steering wheel is straight ahead !