invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

9,068 · October 3

1 hour ago, Talbot said:

it absolutely could have had power assisted steering

Was anybody offering power steering on small cars in 1971? Ford, for example, only offered power steering as standard on the Zodiac and Executive, plus it was an option on the Zephyr. Not available on Cortinas, let alone Escorts.

I daresay it would have been possible to engineer power steering for a smaller car, but I don't know if there was any "off the shelf" system that would fit in a small car then. And how much would it have added to the cost? It's understandable that at the time they went for making the steering light by making the car light and only having one wheel to steer.

7,049 · October 3

i know someone who has/had a 1800 landcrab with factory pas so i would imagine it was doable in a 1300

33,964 · October 3

1 hour ago, Talbot said:

I hope there is no illusion about how utterly dire they were, even then.

There is.

It's fascinating seeing that damage. It's more of a tear than a smash or collapse. It looks like it ripped like a pair of tracksuit bottoms.

Anyone who thinks that a steel body around a steel subframe with a pig iron A series at the front would be just as bad is delusional.

16,867 · October 3

38 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

I daresay it would have been possible to engineer power steering for a smaller car, but I don't know if there was any "off the shelf" system that would fit in a small car then. And how much would it have added to the cost? It's understandable that at the time they went for making the steering light by making the car light and only having one wheel to steer.

.. and also putting hardly any weight on it, thus meaning the car had very little directional stability.

TBH a PAS pump is just a hydraulic pump. Anything could have been engineered if someone had the desire to do so, and in fact the larger pump and rack from a large car, then fitted to something smaller would have made the steering (be that by wheel or by handlebar) massively light, which is what was needed. That would in turn have allowed more weight on the front wheels, making the vehicle far safer to drive and more predictable. Not least because PAS not only makes it light at slow speeds, but also adds an element of damping at higher speeds, making the car more stable.

Yes, it would have added to the cost, but given the staggering amount of money the DHSS spent on these vehicles, I doubt it would have made much difference.

2,584 · October 3

4 hours ago, Mally said:

Did he not own the theatre on the Pier at one time? Used to have Jethro on a lot.

They were good friends, he did a eulogy at Jethros funeral.

13,151 · October 3

1 hour ago, adw1977 said:

I don't know if there was any "off the shelf" system that would fit in a small car then.

There were aftermarket solutions on the market late 70s, could well have been around a while even then.

2,584 · October 3

1 hour ago, BorniteIdentity said:

There is.

It's fascinating seeing that damage. It's more of a tear than a smash or collapse. It looks like it ripped like a pair of tracksuit bottoms.

Anyone who thinks that a steel body around a steel subframe with a pig iron A series at the front would be just as bad is delusional.

I was looking at the photo and think it hit the pole at an angle and was lifted onto the island to clear the road as the lit bollard is untouched behind.

4,351 · October 3

12 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

There were aftermarket solutions on the market late 70s, could well have been around a while even then.

I vaguely remember convertors like Wood and Pickett offering them for the Mini.

If not maybe a Kei Car one would work:

"Yes, some kei cars have power steering, including the Daihatsu Hijet. The Hijet is a kei truck with a three-cylinder water-cooled engine and options like power steering."

I don't know about the timescale though.

Maybe the market is ready for a Retromod AC Model whatever? If Singer can do it with 911s surely someone can with these, albeit with a somewhat more restricted market. The top speed could soar from 70mph to 82mph!

2,426 · October 3

1 hour ago, BorniteIdentity said:

There is.

It's fascinating seeing that damage. It's more of a tear than a smash or collapse. It looks like it ripped like a pair of tracksuit bottoms.

Anyone who thinks that a steel body around a steel subframe with a pig iron A series at the front would be just as bad is delusional.

2,584 · October 3

I wonder what the percentage of deaths in a Mini were in period compared with a Model 70 is?

Some of the cars I drive regularly at work are no better or possibly worse than a Mini or Model 70 at crash protection and often upwards of 3-400+ horsepower with thin alloy bodywork or GRP. I'm not so scared of other traffic (though the 1959 Lotus Elite felt like a coffin when looking at lorry wheels) but the street furniture and trees if I make a mistake are a worry and nobody will blame the £1m car for my injuries or death.

33,964 · October 3

20 minutes ago, mintwth said:

I should requalify my position. All old cars offer very limited crash protection. I had a very uncomfortable few weeks when I started driving a (then) 35 year old MIni around. The greatest comfort was knowing that my family wouldn't have any difficult conversations about turning off the life support, I'd be dead and they'd just need to book the crematorium.

But see how that Mini hasn't ripped like a hole in a pair of jeans? It's crumpled? The engine will have taken some of the brunt.

Given the choice, I'd rather be in that Mini (with fancy 12" wheels) with the A series - than a bath tub with a lawnmower engine waiting to ignite and make the crematorium redundant.

2,426 · October 3

40,072 · October 3

One thing i didnt appreciate until dipping into the autocar archive, was how utterly antisocial they were, by the accounts of the users.

Why should someone in need of an adapted vehicle not have the option to have friends or family aboard? To my mind this is a massive issue - given the potentially debilitating barriers and obstacles in life already in place, having the potential of other social contacts or rather the lack of, really does feel like second class citizen treatment, IMO.

1,472 · October 3

3 minutes ago, HMC said:

One thing i didnt appreciate until dipping into the autocar archive, was how utterly antisocial they were, by the accounts of the users.

Why should someone in need of an adapted vehicle not have the option to have friends or family aboard? To my mind this is a massive issue - given the barriers and obstacles in life already in place, having the potential of other social contacts or rather the lack of, really does feel like second class citizen treatment, IMO.

I suspect it was largely to do with the three wheel, lightweight layout.

As discussed above the simplest way to make a steering setup light enough to operate by somebody with potentially less strength. In a vehicle with so little mass, having the driver offset would make stability more of an issue.

23,299 · October 3

3 hours ago, adw1977 said:

Was anybody offering power steering on small cars in 1971? Ford, for example, only offered power steering as standard on the Zodiac and Executive, plus it was an option on the Zephyr. Not available on Cortinas, let alone Escorts.

I daresay it would have been possible to engineer power steering for a smaller car, but I don't know if there was any "off the shelf" system that would fit in a small car then. And how much would it have added to the cost? It's understandable that at the time they went for making the steering light by making the car light and only having one wheel to steer.

An alternative would be adapting one of the many rear engined cars for sale at the time as they didn't need PAS.

23,299 · October 3

20 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I believe the removable roof is just happy accident, as I understand it, its easier on production of fibreglass vehicles to to make several different sections and bolt em all together, then try and make it one giant lump, also makes it easier for repair, if you find yourself quite litreally wrapped around a set of traffic lights for example

this Model 70 would of just needed a new nose section fitted and then it could go back to its user

here is a NOS unused Model 70 body shell to show how they came apart/went together I am still hoping at some point to get this 3D scanned in high resolution for preservation sake

but the roof is not designed to be user removable, its held down by many many bolts front and back

An interesting observation about that crashed 70 pic is that the windscreen is intact meaning that was a crash at little more than walking speed. An Invicar is only one of three cars that nobody ever wore a seat belt when driving. The other two are the Series Land Rover and the RR Silver Shadow.

58,430 · October 3

9 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

as an excerpt from my posts on Ministry issued regular cars, the Ministry did actually trial DAF 33's as part of their adapted regular car scheme

"Torque converter"?

5,862 · October 3

2 hours ago, Snake Charmer said:

They were good friends, he did a eulogy at Jethros funeral.

I'm quite surprised to discover Jim Davidson is still alive, somehow thought he was much older than he is

12,087 · October 3

40 minutes ago, Dan_ZTT said:

I'm quite surprised to discover Jim Davidson is still alive, somehow thought he was much older than he is

Has a YouTube channel. I watch his rants at times.

23,299 · October 3

11,125 · October 3

I used to take my Mum out shopping and stuff in my first car ....

124,647 · October 3

9 hours ago, Mally said:

Did he not own the theatre on the Pier at one time?

He should probably* be thrown off one. Ideally with him wearing concrete wellies at the time.

2,841 · October 3

2 hours ago, Dan_ZTT said:

I'm quite surprised to discover Jim Davidson is still alive, somehow thought he was much older than he is

Same here, it's just his material makes him sound like someone who was already middle aged in the 70s!

13,151 · October 3

7 minutes ago, Richard_FM said:

Same here, it's just his material makes him sound like someone who was already middle aged in the 70s!

I saw him in the 80's on stage, hilarious. Had a drink with him at the bar after, wasn't his first! (Or mine)

33,964 · October 3

It's all very fashionable to tut and roll eyes at comedians of the 70s and 80s, but they were immensely popular. Yes, they never changed their act - but why would or should they? Just as I can't imagine Jim Davidson doing the wokey cokey, nor can I picture Cannon and Ball doing satire.

They were supremely successful at what they did. More power to them.

11,419 · October 3

2 minutes ago, BorniteIdentity said:

It's all very fashionable to tut and roll eyes at comedians of the 70s and 80s, but they were immensely popular. Yes, they never changed their act - but why would or should they? Just as I can't imagine Jim Davidson doing the wokey cokey, nor can I picture Cannon and Ball doing satire.

They were supremely successful at what they did. More power to them.

Indeed they were and they were very funny in their time but that’s it, isn’t it? It’s of their time. Time, humour, what is funny moves on and leaves things behind. Some things that are left are bad, some are just not of the modern day. What differentiates folk like Manning, Davison et al is the enlightened times that we live in. Sure that some out there haven’t moved with the times and still think their humour is still current. But it isn’t. Time and attitudes have moved on. They are an anachronism. Are they therefore less of a person? No,but like an exhibit in a museum, they show where we have come from, not where we are now.

33,964 · October 3

23 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

It’s of their time. Time moves on and leaves things behind. Enlightened times that we live in. Time and attitudes have moved on. They are an anachronism. Like an exhibit in a museum, they show where we have come from, not where we are now.

Beautifully summing up the Invacar.

11,419 · October 3

12 minutes ago, BorniteIdentity said:

Beautifully summing up the Invacar.

But also summing up every car we hold dear. Do we ban those too? What about those who others declare dangerous? Where is the line drawn?

18,818 · October 3

12 hours ago, Mally said:

Seems to me that the body and chassis did it's job.

I'd like to know why the driver didn't go through the windscreen.

5 hours ago, warren t claim said:

An interesting observation about that crashed 70 pic is that the windscreen is intact meaning that was a crash at little more than walking speed. An Invicar is only one of three cars that nobody ever wore a seat belt when driving. The other two are the Series Land Rover and the RR Silver Shadow.

do you have any sources for that? All Model 70's and even as far back the 1957 Invacar MK10, had seatbelts, 3 point on the Model 70, and some Model 70's even had a full harness type arrangement, because if you think about it for a moment if you only have 1 arm and no other limbs, a 3 point seatbelt kinda falls flat on its face, hence the fitment for a full harness belt system

10 hours ago, Talbot said:

That photo somewhat highlights the point I am making about safety. The GRP has offered almost no impact adsorption and instead of deflecting the vehicle away from the lamp post, it has totally failed and allowed intrusion into the body area. Looking at the thickness of the GRP in that area, I suspect it was a very low speed impact, which is good news as essentially the next part of the vehicle to hit is the fuel tank and driver footwell.

This is rather what I mean about not being fit for purpose. Given that the driver of one of these vehicles likely has reduced mobility, reduced strength and is physically disabled, putting them in a highly vulnerable vehicle that failed crash tests and was universally described as unstable doesn't really seem like a great plan. If anything, they should be in a vehicle that is more stable and has more stopping/steering capability (IE reduced effort required) than a "normal" car. The technology for this absolutely existed in the early 70s. Even if the vehicle had been a unique design for a disabled person (which in itself is not a great plan) it absolutely could have had power assisted steering, power assisted brakes and hence four wheels.

They're an interesting part of history, but I hope there is no illusion about how utterly dire they were, even then. As long as you're aware of that and drive it accordingly now. To ignore the very real dangers here would put any driver of one in even more danger than they are already in. (a lot).

but as I have mentioned, later version of the Model 70 where found to be compliant with the ECE Crash test regulations of the time, this is what I mean by, I am not trying to argue that the Model 70 is by todays standards a Safe Vehicle, I understand and accept that if I am driving down a country lane, and suddenly as I am going round a bend, a Range Rover comes speeding the other way, its not going to be pretty, nor am I arguing that one should bring back the Model 70 as is and hand it out to disabled people today,

but what I am arguing here/fighting the corner for is, how much the Model 70 (and the Invalid Vehicle Service) is vilified and derided, by people who have never actually looked into the details or even driven one for any length of time! I agree that they have their short comings as any vehicle does, and that they are not suited for *every* disabled person and their perticular life situations, but the Model 70 was much better at the job that it was built to do, enable a disabled person to get from Point A to Point B, then most abled bodied people seem to think it is

for example as I mentioned most recently, vacuum boosted power brakes where an Option on the Model 70, for people with weak arms, along with a steering wheel option and steering box, which provided gearing to reduce the effort required for steering,

and people talk about unreliability for example, but again those claims I have found are somewhat unfounded, talking to/reading the accounts of period users of the time and also breakdown men who where contracted to recover these vehicles when they did fail to proceed, they where not by any accounts found to be perticularly unreliable in any sort of the fashion, the 3 main issues of the Model 70 where, failed condensers, snapped throttle cables, and snapped drive belts, not exactly big issues and also ones that could easily be worked around by a bit of proactive maintenance (replacing throttle cables and drivebelts before they are completely worn to the point of failure for example)

and lets turn to this very forum for example, I think a combined 10,000 miles has been done in all the Invalid vehicles on the forum, and the only time one had to be recovered was Zel's TPA due to snapped drive belt, that was well past its best already and should of been replaced already, but its also a part that could have been fitted at the road-side (hence why I will be making sure to carry a spare drive belt in REV somewhere at all times) and the only other Major fault I can think of is when @dollywobbler's TWC spat out a spark plug, but look at TWC herself, despite hastily being recommissioned for a deadline, after sitting in a damp field for 15 years, and only receiving basic routine servicing by Dollywobbler since, look at how reliable she has been for him otherwise! never once leaving him totally stranded needing recovery on the back of a recovery vehicle, you have gotta give some credit where credit is due surely?

lets not also forget the Model 70 had large sliding doors to provide easy ingress and egress, as well as a sliding seat to enable the occupant to easily transition from/to their vehicle and a place to stow a folding wheelchair along side them, along side all the special control scheme options and so forth

its all this and more which is why I think the Model 70 does not deserve the flack that it does get, I find it somewhat baffling/unfair how it gets so much flack, while other cars of similar configuration and era do not get so much flack,

hence why I dont agree with the statement about them being utter dire even back then, because to put it simply your not the only person who has made posts/statements like this, so of course I have looked into it, and just found it to be not true, from the reports done at the time and from the majority of users who had their Model 70's, they did not find them to be utter dire, I think nothing sums this up more them, again by the fact that in 1976, it was announced that "ok theres so much out cry about the Invalid vehicle Scheme, we will withdraw all Invalid vehicles by 1981" and there was such an outrage about this, suddenly the quiet Majority, became not so quiet, that it was indefinitely put off, and the last Model 70 user did not give up her Model 70 until the 14th of October 2004!

its one of the reasons why I am so much an enthusiast of the Invacar and find them so fascinating, never have I ever found a Vehicle, that was so miss-understood and so unfairly derided, by people who have barely looked into them or had anything to do with them

it was this revelation of "wow everything is complete Bollocks! I bet theres a fascinating story behind it all" thats lead me down this path

18,818 · October 4

7 hours ago, wuvvum said:

"Torque converter"?

is what they called the Salsbury 795 CVT system for some reason

https://www.vintagesnow.com/Clutch_files/SalsburyShopManual.pdf

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invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

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