12 year old car in 0 Star EURO NCAP test shocker...

[Hendry]

To me it’s a load of bullshit, cars are losing points for not having Autonomous Emergency braking, shit like that.

 

A Punto which got 5 stars 12 years ago (don’t know if it did or not, just making a point) which gets 0 stars now is no less safe than it was 12 years ago, they metal it was made with isn’t suddenly replaced by tin foil and crisp packets.

 

I agree with the argument of them testing a 12 year old design alongside brand new designs like they did with a Rover 100 vs mk4 Fiesta, Corsa B, Saxo/106, etc but the difference is no matter what way you cut it a Rover 100 was shit in a crash and you’d likely be dead if you had a big enough crash, whereas in a Punto you’d be ok, it’s like the stars used to genuinely reflect a cars safety, now it doesn’t. It’s meaningless, as I said, a car which was safe 12 years ago no longer is according to them, nah bollocks it just doesn’t have a load of crash prevention aids, doesn’t mean in a crash it will mean instant death.

 

Renault Laguna IIs were some of the first 5 star crash rated cars on the market, I’d bet if they got tested right now they’d score 0 stars too, it means fuck all, a car which was once safe suddenly isnt? Nah!

 

It all means jack shit to me, tbh as long as my car has abs and some airbags just incase I do crash, I’m not interested in the rest like cornering brake control, emergency braking assist, electronic brake force distribution, torque vectoring control, traction control, electronic stability control, and all the other 3 letter initials words like ASR, AEB, They can all GTF!

[Lacquer Peel]

Buy new cars people, your old cars are dangerous.

 

Here's the lesser cited Yaris vs. 940 crash test clip.

 

 

Neither car looks good after that.

 

 

[Zelandeth]

Automatic emergency braking is something which I'd very much rather avoid going near.

 

I've been in a car (2016 VW Golf R-Line) when it triggered for seemingly no reason whatsoever halfway down the M6.  Nothing like doing an emergency stop in the middle lane of the motorway.

 

Sure it might stop us rear ending someone, but is that going to stop the idiot tailgating me (especially if it's a lorry driver who thinks the 50mph bits don't apply to them) from ending up halfway through my car?

 

Scared the wits out of everyone in the car that did.  We never trusted that car fully after that and were glad to see the back of it.

 

Best safety device?  Has to be training doesn't it?  

 

I went through a Smith's system safety training course as part of my PCV driver training, and reckon it was one of the most useful things I've ever done.  All commonsense stuff but it actually makes you think about it.

 

Also reckon that the commentated drive section should be in the car test as well.  What that is if you've not heard of it is a section of the test where you have to give the instructor a second-by-second report of everything you're doing, seeing, checking and thinking.  The first few times I practiced that while driving a bus I was left a gibbering vegetable by the end of it...talk about using mental energy!

 

At the end of the day though, the car safety surely should be the last, last, last resort for when it all goes tits up.  The best thing we can do is make the drivers in control of the cars safer...

[sierraman]

I wouldn’t worry. This sort of propaganda only gets the idiots that were looking for a reason to take out more finance on something they didn’t need.

[Junkman]

  On 14/12/2017 at 11:13, Lacquer Peel said:

Buy new cars people, your old cars are dangerous.

 

Here's the lesser cited Yaris vs. 940 crash test clip.

 

 

Neither car looks good after that.

 

 

 

But the Ovlov makes a much more pitturesque wreck.

[sierraman]

I’d still sooner take my chances with the Volvo than die of embarrassment as soon as I got in the Modus.

[rml2345]

If the Euro NCAP people actually judged things on practical stuff like passenger cell deformation and airbag performance then I'd be more inclined to listen to what they had to say but marking a car down because it might not pull up automatically is nonsense. The American Insurance Institute for Highway Safety still does and their stuff is worth looking at should you be considering a Chevrolet Malibu or something.

Having had more than my fair share of shunts, in the real world crashes depend as much on circumstances as what you're driving.

[FakeConcern]

  On 14/12/2017 at 08:44, brownnova said:

Driving modern cars with their NCAP and their safety aides makes you lazy and a worse driver and therefore more likely to have a crash - because "I'll be OK it's got a 5 star NCAP rating". 

 

Driving old cars where you have to anticipate, and read the road and rely on good old fashioned reactions makes you a better driver and therefore less likely to have a crash.  

 

Well, that's my take on it.  

If they were really interested in safety then the old take on it would be that every car has a sharp spike sticking out of the steering wheel ready to poke into the drivers head in any accident.

[Chris2cv]

I did the IAM (Institute of Advanced Motorists) driving course some years ago and feel that it did me a lot of good. As mentioned above, doing commentaries really focusses your mind on what ​​is going on. I don't pretend to be perfect, but I try to put the training into practice where possible. With the moped and 2cv I am usually on full power (and still not breaking the law!) whereas the modern cars are barely ticking over, but the principles are the same - look around you and anticipate.  If people could just do this, we wouldn't need all this stuff on our cars!  

 

Every single day, I am overtaken while riding the moped on my way home, by cars that then have to slam on the brakes as they nearly pile into the queue of traffic in front of me. I get it, it does 28mph downhill, and we all want to go faster. I would like to go faster!  Just look around first, I have and will now steer around you as I filter to the lights!   Oh and put the bloody phone down!

[Lacquer Peel]

I know someone who passed the IAM course, he takes roundabouts and corners like they're 50 pence pieces.

[Ghosty]

In other words, NCAP is arbitrary as the standards are constantly being amended and aren't relative to each other.

So really, they should be adding stars to the system?

 

Makes you think though, Renault harped on about five-star cars in the early 2000s. But in a sense it was just marketing spin because technology was advancing, of course a newer car is going to have more airbags and stuff.

[Wack]

I don't think I've ever checked the Ncap rating of any car I've ever owned , if I wanted it I bought it

[Tamworthbay]

  On 14/12/2017 at 11:29, Zelandeth said:

 

Best safety device?  Has to be training doesn't it?  

 

 

This is the start middle and end of the conversation, and the proof is the increasing number of idiots who feel safely cocooned in their cars because they are told how amazingly safe they are and therefore drive like complete grade A cocks. Better training, and showing the implications of a big smash, has to be a better way forward.

[Zelandeth]

Speaking of training - I reckon in addition to the commentated drive, I think that something everyone should have to do is a couple of hours driving a large vehicle.  That might make them realise how different a kettle of fish it is to drive something 2.5 metres wide and 50 odd feet long, where you've got a car length of overhang at the back and are six feet in front of the steering axle.  It might also make that Muppet in the BMW realise *why* that stop line is where it is...not fifteen feet further into the junction.  

 

*Disclaimer: yes, there are plenty of daft junction designs out there too.

 

My job involved a lot of road safety and road design stuff from the local authority side, and so the bus operator got me out driving the buses so that it got rid of the "us and them" between them and the roads department.  Prior to that there were quite a few elements of "the computer says it works" when it obviously didn't in the real world.  It was really useful for me to be able to drive it and then properly back up the operator.  Also I think it helped get the drivers to come forward to us with suggestions or questions.  I always made a point of replying too...and if the answer was "that's a really good idea but we can't afford it" at least they knew.

 

Quite often though it was a case of "can you move that stop line back by a couple of metres?" Or "can you get that tree trimmed to improve the visibility at this junction?" and things like that.  I think they were somewhat surprised when requests like that suddenly started getting quick responses and quick fixes.

 

It meant I got to spend hours driving around in buses which I only saw as a good thing...also meant I learned more about driving than I could have guessed existed beforehand.

 

...really do need to go back and get the IAM test done before it gets too distant a memory, just because I'd like to.  Plus something else to wave at my insurer hopefully.

[Junkman]

Hands up, how many of you even knew anybody who perished in a car accident?

Family, friends, family friends, friends' relatives, how many did you know?

[Alusilber]

  On 14/12/2017 at 20:39, Ghosty said:

In other words, NCAP is arbitrary as the standards are constantly being amended and aren't relative to each other.

So really, they should be adding stars to the system?

 

Makes you think though, Renault harped on about five-star cars in the early 2000s. But in a sense it was just marketing spin because technology was advancing, of course a newer car is going to have more airbags and stuff.

Yes, EuroNCAP seem to move the goalposts every few years, which makes trying to compare cars tested a few years apart hopeless. They should really be clear about exactly what version of the test each car is being tested against - was it EuroNCAP 2010, or EuroNCAP 2013, or EuroNCAP 2017, etc.

 

And apparently, one of the reasons the Punto got 0 stars this time round is that the seatbelt warning only chimes for the driver's seat, not the front passenger...

[SiC]

  On 14/12/2017 at 22:54, Junkman said:

Hands up, how many of you even knew anybody who perished in a car accident?

Family, friends, family friends, friends' relatives, how many did you know?

None luckily. However of course it does happen and it happened so much more 30+ years ago if you look at the death rates on the roads. I guess due to my age, I'm likely to be of a time when it was far less likely to.

 

But I see your point. Especially when:

Deaths In the UK every year:
160,000 people die from heart and circulatory disease.
73,000 people die from coronary heart disease (CHD).
40,000 people died from a stroke.
42,000 people died prematurely from cardiovascular disease (CVD).

https://heartuk.org.uk/press/press-kit/key-facts-figures

 

Year    All Road User Groups
2000    3,409
2001    3,450
2002    3,431
2003    3,508
2004    3,221
2005    3,201
2006    3,172
2007    2,946
2008    2,538
2009    2,222
2010    1,850
2011    1,901
2012    1,754
2013    1,713

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-road-fatalities

 

Basically poor lifestyle choices is by far more likely to kill you. Put down that burger and stop burning those cancer sticks in your mouth.

[adw1977]

  On 14/12/2017 at 22:54, Junkman said:

Hands up, how many of you even knew anybody who perished in a car accident?

Family, friends, family friends, friends' relatives, how many did you know?

One, about 20 years ago.

[rantingYoof]

  On 14/12/2017 at 22:54, Junkman said:

Hands up, how many of you even knew anybody who perished in a car accident?

Family, friends, family friends, friends' relatives, how many did you know?

 

I think 'results' speak louder than stars.

 

20 years ago this would have not just had walking wounded...

[wuvvum]

Those Fifth Gear "demonstration" videos are generally bollocks though.  Like when they were trying to show how dangerous cars without stability control are by doing an "elk test" in an old Yaris, except that it coped absolutely fine so they deliberately drove it onto bumpy grass at 80mph and then acted all shocked when it turned over.

 

Or the one where they drove a Master into a Pisshat.  The presenter looked in the Master cab and expressed surprise at how little deformation there was (although the plywood (!) bulkhead had struggled to hold back the tonne bag of sand that was loose in the back).  Then they got an "expert" in who proclaimed that the Master driver would almost certainly have died.  Er, no he fucking wouldn't.  Not unless he was driving with no seatbelt on.

[RoadworkUK]

  On 14/12/2017 at 11:11, Hendry said:

A Punto which got 5 stars 12 years ago (don’t know if it did or not, just making a point) which gets 0 stars now is no less safe than it was 12 years ago, they metal it was made with isn’t suddenly replaced by tin foil and crisp packets.

 

 

That's absolutely right, but the fact that things were perfectly OK a decade ago is pretty much irrelevant.

 

All Euro NCAP is concerned about is the comparative safety between cars today. It's indisputable that a family will have more chance of walking away from a crash unscathed - or (theoretically) avoiding it altogether - in a new Fiesta than a new Punto.

 

It's great that we know better - we're correctly happy that our old cars are no less safe now than they were years ago, but that's in no way relevant to the many thousands of people who buy a new car every year.

 

It might be bollocks to us, but since most of us spend approximately £0 on new cars on a regular basis, our viewpoint can be justifiably ignored.

[Kiltox]

  On 14/12/2017 at 23:18, SiC said:

None luckily. However of course it does happen and it happened so much more 30+ years ago if you look at the death rates on the roads. I guess due to my age, I'm likely to be of a time when it was far less likely to.But I see your point. Especially when:

Deaths In the UK every year:
160,000 people die from heart and circulatory disease.
73,000 people die from coronary heart disease (CHD).
40,000 people died from a stroke.
42,000 people died prematurely from cardiovascular disease (CVD).

https://heartuk.org.uk/press/press-kit/key-facts-figures

Year    All Road User Groups
2000    3,409
2001    3,450
2002    3,431
2003    3,508
2004    3,221
2005    3,201
2006    3,172
2007    2,946
2008    2,538
2009    2,222
2010    1,850
2011    1,901
2012    1,754
2013    1,713

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-road-fatalitiesBasically poor lifestyle choices is by far more likely to kill you. Put down that burger and stop burning those cancer sticks in your mouth.

Isn’t it impressive that the number halved in 12 years though? I thought the number of cars on the road had gone up significantly

[Wack]

  On 14/12/2017 at 22:54, Junkman said:

Hands up, how many of you even knew anybody who perished in a car accident?

Family, friends, family friends, friends' relatives, how many did you know?

 

 

A couple on motorbikes in the 70s but none since, my wife had an uncle killed in the 70s driving a mini ,the steering column pierced his chest , his wife survived with serious injuries, now in her 80s but she's had a hard life

 

Car safety has improved a lot since the mk2 escort , a mate of mine took one back to a shell and rebuilt it, when I saw it as a shell I looked at it and thought no wonder so many died back then, it really was just a tin box

[stephen01]

  On 15/12/2017 at 07:59, RoadworkUK said:

That's absolutely right, but the fact that things were perfectly OK a decade ago is pretty much irrelevant.

 

All Euro NCAP is concerned about is the comparative safety between cars today. It's indisputable that a family will have more chance of walking away from a crash unscathed - or (theoretically) avoiding it altogether - in a new Fiesta than a new Punto.

 

 

The new fiesta is safer than the punto, but not by the difference exaggerated by receiving 0 stars against 5 for a fiesta, the fiesta received 1.5 points for a speed limiter, this has to be manually set.

 

  Quote

System Name Speed Limiter Speed Limit Information Function N/A Warning Function Manually set Speed Limitation Function Manually set (accurate to 5km/h)

 

 

And 2.7 points for Lane departure: Its worth noting that no test are carried out at the speeds this is operational from.. 

 

  Quote

System Name Lane Keeping Aid & Alert Type Lane Keep Assist Operational From 65 km/h Warning Audible and Haptic

 

 

And 3 points for seat belt warning lights / sound. If you're stupid enough not to wear a seatbelt you're stupid enough to ignore a light /  sound 

  Quote

 

Applies To All seats Warning Driver Seat front passenger(s) rear passenger(s) Visual / Audible 

 

 

I'm not sure how either of these options which have scored points add any real value over a model that doesn't have it during an actual crash? None of these options would help avoid a crash. (based on the test Ncap test at) Years ago I would have just looked at Ncap and said 5 stars great that's the one, when in reality the results are so skewed you have to ask your self what purpose do they really serve?

 

​Just a little note: the 2012 fiesta scored better in both adult & child protection over the 2017 fiesta as a % but I cant see what this means in real terms as the data is presented in different formats.