HMC Quattroporte assaulted

[danthecapriman]

40 minutes ago, Yoss said:

So the points and condenser are now at least 20 years old and still going strong. They are probably so old that they were not made in China.

I still think about going back to electronic ignition but other jobs always seem to come along first. There certainly doesn't seem any point replacing the points and condenser I have now because they will be cheap Chineseum.

I think tbh, that’s the crux of it! Chinese cheap crap. If they were made to a quality things might be different but unfortunately they’re not. 
On the Mercury I had a hell of a job getting it to run or run right on the points. I bought a couple of condenser’s new from different companies. One was dead straight out the box and the other worked ok-ish for a while then that failed. In the end I went through quite a few condenser’s before finding a decent one. 
The crap ones were all made in China, India and somewhere else similar. The original one that worked still but was clearly ancient and the wire was all corroded was made in USA and the good new one I got in the end was Mexico. I got fed up in the end so fitted Pertronix electronic and it’s been perfect ever since.

If your old points set up is working fine now then your probably best off leaving it as is. The old working parts will be far better quality than the modern rubbish you get to replace it with. Maybe if it ever does fail then consider electronic ignition then? 
The old service interval for changing points & condenser every 6k or 6 months is a great idea… back in the days you could get quality parts! Now however… not so much. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it springs to mind.

 

Electronic ignition isn’t a 100% solution either though. It’s generally more reliable and easier to maintain but it’s still a bunch of electronic components that can and do sometimes fail. Touch wood I’ve not had that happen yet though.

[Mr Pastry]

Why is it that automotive ignition condensers are now so bad, while modern electronic condensers generally have become supremely reliable?

[danthecapriman]

3 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Why is it that automotive ignition condensers are now so bad, while modern electronic condensers generally have become supremely reliable?

Probably, like most things, they’re built much more to a price than a quality. 
Didnt @SiC do some testing with them on his MG thread? I can’t remember what the outcome was though…

[Mr Pastry]

1 minute ago, danthecapriman said:

Probably, like most things, they’re built much more to a price than a quality. 
Didnt @SiC do some testing with them on his MG thread? I can’t remember what the outcome was though…

The thing is though that the electronic components are not expensive, and are basically exactly the same thing.   Lack of joined-up thinking somewhere.

 

[wesacosa]

I have a Gammatronix box on the Panda, it keeps the points but removes the condenser and just uses the points as a low current switch so has the benefit of not burning out the points or worrying about shite condensers, and if it fails you just need to plug the condenser back in. They are about £30 

 

[wesacosa]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201352025609?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=Z99PTdcuRNm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=8AFYP6nlRMa&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

[danthecapriman]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

The thing is though that the electronic components are not expensive, and are basically exactly the same thing.   Lack of joined-up thinking somewhere.

 

True, but if you consider the kit for a Pertronix electronic ignition is roughly £100 - £150ish vehicle depending. Not cheap, but I think it’s one of those times where you get what you pay for. 
You could get a much cheaper electronic kit, but if it’s cheap then it’s probably made with cheap components which means it might be more prone to failure?

Then consider a new Chinesium condenser is a couple of quid… they’ll just be the absolute cheapest internals you can find thrown together as quickly as possible and slung out the factory doors by the thousands. They probably know damn well a high percentage of them will not last long or work at all but that’s the cost of consumers demanding the cheapest price. 
Personally, I’d gladly pay significantly higher prices for a quality product made in GB or the USA but unfortunately that doesn’t seem an option anymore. And I’d probably be in a minority with that mindset too!😄

[Zelandeth]

2 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

... while modern electronic condensers generally have become supremely reliable?

They really haven't.  As someone who regularly finds himself fixing people's broken bits of electronics, whether it be a £20 kids toy or a £5000 high end TV, unless it's something that has physically been broken the problem will at least 95% of the time be down to failed capacitors.

The ones used on a points ignition system are a pretty specialised type as well as they need to stand up to a very high voltage gradient.  If you've ever been buying high voltage caps (which if you work on valve era tech you will), you'll find that they're annoyingly expensive compared to the more pedestrian ratings.  They're also nowhere near as widely available.

Aside from the pretty hard life they live electrically, the environment is tough given the huge temperature and humidity swings you're going to see in an engine bay.

What you really want for this application is a proper hermetically sealed polypropylene film capacitor.  However what you generally get when buying automotive ones is a really cheaply made wax paper type.  These were never particularly reliable even in their day, being prone to absorbing moisture which causes them to become electrically leaky over time.  However when they were £0.50 and were replaced every year or two as a service part that wasn't the end of the day.  Now being made even MORE cheaply as everything these days is a race to the bottom and/or stored in unknown conditions for how long, it's no wonder they're woeful.

If you don't want to go to the expense or complexity of switching to an electronic system, just fitting a good quality condenser external to the distributor will probably go a long way to making things more reliable.

[Mr Pastry]

7 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

If you don't want to go to the expense or complexity of switching to an electronic system, just fitting a good quality condenser external to the distributor will probably go a long way to making things more reliable.

That's exactly the point.  I don't get why everybody doesn't just do that, and suitable types would have been identified. 

I don't actually remember many condenser failures back in the day on the stuff that I serviced, and certainly didn't think of them as being unreliable.   It was mostly Bosch and Marelli rather than Lucas so maybe I was just lucky.

I have Lumenition on the 2CV which gives no trouble and seems to be a good quality product, but it's more because of poor access to the points than anything else.   

 

[HMC]

1989 street scene…

[HMC]

Galaxy update

Its been brilliant! its got the 2.3 4 cyl petrol unit fitted, which apparently is related to the ford scorpio twin cam and not the zetec. By this facelift it was the entry level engine, and it has the “zetec” trim level, just to confuse matters!

It goes quite well, its pretty torquey and feels quite well suited to the car. 

It has an essex registration and a few clues to its past. I was suprised it had most ofnits original paperwork, book pack etc and the number plates and screen sticker suggest it was a ford company vehicle, and then sold through “ford direct” whatever that was.

 

Anyway, that was a long time ago in this cars 22 year old life…..

But being a bit rough and ready makes it so practical- van, car, skip, dog transport. Its already ruined so its the ultimate usable all rounder.

[wuvvum]

I had a Transit with that engine - they are indeed an updated version of the older twin cam.  That van went like the clappers but bugger me did it like a drink!

[HMC]

2000s fords Group shot- cheap bangers

1970s ford- not so cheap banger

theme: BANGERS

[Schaefft]

I have to admit as non-native the Galaxy is more interesting to me than the Escort ha.

[wesacosa]

9 hours ago, HMC said:

Galaxy update

Its been brilliant! its got the 2.3 4 cyl petrol unit fitted, which apparently is related to the ford scorpio twin cam and not the zetec. By this facelift it was the entry level engine, and it has the “zetec” trim level, just to confuse matters!

It goes quite well, its pretty torquey and feels quite well suited to the car. 

It has an essex registration and a few clues to its past. I was suprised it had most ofnits original paperwork, book pack etc and the number plates and screen sticker suggest it was a ford company vehicle, and then sold through “ford direct” whatever that was.

 

Anyway, that was a long time ago in this cars 22 year old life…..

But being a bit rough and ready makes it so practical- van, car, skip, dog transport. Its already ruined so its the ultimate usable all rounder.

The supervisors and managers at Ford can lease cars , when they have done a certain mileage  they give them back and lease another, the returned cars were then sold via Dagenham motors as Ford direct. I can't remember if they were only available to Ford employees or to the public but Ford employees definitely could access a list of the stock available at the time

I think the Ford Direct might have also been the name for any Ford approved vehicle but with the Ford motor company plates and Essex reg its almost certainly an ex management lease 

[egg]

Thing I always remember about MK2 escorts is the loud clock tick. I remember being left in the car as a kid as my parents did something ridiculously boring in a garden centre and I preferred to sit in the car and listened to that tick...wondering why it took so long to buy a growbag. 

[stuboy]

10 minutes ago, egg said:

Thing I always remember about MK2 escorts is the loud clock tick. I remember being left in the car as a kid as my parents did something ridiculously boring in a garden centre and I preferred to sit in the car and listed to that tick...wondering why it took so long to buy a growbag. 

Pampas grass and upside down 🍍

[stuboy]

10 hours ago, HMC said:

Galaxy update

Its been brilliant! its got the 2.3 4 cyl petrol unit fitted, which apparently is related to the ford scorpio twin cam and not the zetec. By this facelift it was the entry level engine, and it has the “zetec” trim level, just to confuse matters!

It goes quite well, its pretty torquey and feels quite well suited to the car. 

It has an essex registration and a few clues to its past. I was suprised it had most ofnits original paperwork, book pack etc and the number plates and screen sticker suggest it was a ford company vehicle, and then sold through “ford direct” whatever that was.

 

Anyway, that was a long time ago in this cars 22 year old life…..

But being a bit rough and ready makes it so practical- van, car, skip, dog transport. Its already ruined so its the ultimate usable all rounder.

Zetec trim is strange.. minus tractor powered... does ur rear heater still work?

[S2000]

2 hours ago, HMC said:

theme: BANGERS

Love a pair of Bangers 🤡

[HMC]

@egg  @danthecapriman do you know what the original tyre size would be for the dartboard wheels? im tempted to go oem on this as theres a lot of wannabe works escorts and not so many standard cars about. 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, HMC said:

@egg  @danthecapriman do you know what the original tyre size would be for the dartboard wheels? im tempted to go oem on this as theres a lot of wannabe works escorts and not so many standard cars about. 

Soz I don't - @bunglebusmight?

[danthecapriman]

17 minutes ago, HMC said:

@egg  @danthecapriman do you know what the original tyre size would be for the dartboard wheels? im tempted to go oem on this as theres a lot of wannabe works escorts and not so many standard cars about. 

185/70/13T is what I’ve got. From what I could find out that’s the standard size. Although mine are the 5.5’’  dartboard rim. There’s also a 5’’ version.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Oof. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196238857138?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=o6WcP5mnRgm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=FV05_6LQQo2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

[danthecapriman]

1 minute ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Oof. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196238857138?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=o6WcP5mnRgm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=FV05_6LQQo2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Jesus! 
I remember a time you’d chuck them in the scrap metal bin!😄 which, incidentally, is what happened to the original ones that were on my Capri! Not my finest move.

The ones I’ve got on it now were from Germany. I think three out the five were new old stock!

[High Jetter]

5 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Oof. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196238857138?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=o6WcP5mnRgm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=FV05_6LQQo2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

How many wheels? For, FFS!

[danthecapriman]

Just found this in my Capri owners handbook.

Wheels & tyres, bottom row.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

To be fair, these are rough but way cheaper. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/226104840223?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=Qu8aZ_d4SKy&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=FV05_6LQQo2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Supply and demand, I guess!

[bezzabsa]

is the Escort going to get a Cut n polish ? or you gunna rock the 'patina' look

[AndyW201]

1 hour ago, HMC said:

@egg  @danthecapriman do you know what the original tyre size would be for the dartboard wheels? im tempted to go oem on this as theres a lot of wannabe works escorts and not so many standard cars about. 

A 1300 GL would have 155X13 on the standard dartboard rims, though 175/70 was a popular (no pun intended...) period upgrade.

[danthecapriman]

1 hour ago, AndyW201 said:

A 1300 GL would have 155X13 on the standard dartboard rims, though 175/70 was a popular (no pun intended...) period upgrade.

The tyre sizes are obviously different between Escort’s and Capri’s then. I don’t think a 155 was an option for the Capri? 
The 155 would be about right though looking at ‘stock’ low end models with the narrow tyres still.

The dartboard’s I’ve got are the wider type, 5.5J which I think(?) were fitted to Mexico’s and RS’s standard but I think you could upgrade to them at cost for other models.