Zel's Motoring Adventures...Peugeot, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar, Volvo & A Sinclair C5 - Updated 09/10.

[SiC]

4 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

The wiper blades are also slightly too long so catch on the upper windscreen surround and lift themselves off the screen which is kind of irritating on a motorway when the air around you is about 90% water.

Balls. I have a set of smaller brand new Valeo wipers (for a 2CV iirc) in my stash that I was going to put on as they looked slightly smaller and possibly not catch.

They're modern wipers on this that the last owner put on. The repro Tex wipers I've found utterly useless and only good for looking original. 

I think the wipers are supposed to park off the windscreen on the little stops beneath. It's why they do the funky stop sequence when you turn them off. There should be a guide on the P4 Guild website to reset the linkage to do that. I'd probably only do it once the wipers don't catch on the body though. Something fun to tinker with. 

[Zelandeth]

 

57 minutes ago, SiC said:

Balls. I have a set of smaller brand new Valeo wipers (for a 2CV iirc) in my stash that I was going to put on as they looked slightly smaller and possibly not catch.

They're modern wipers on this that the last owner put on. The repro Tex wipers I've found utterly useless and only good for looking original. 

I think the wipers are supposed to park off the windscreen on the little stops beneath. It's why they do the funky stop sequence when you turn them off. There should be a guide on the P4 Guild website to reset the linkage to do that. I'd probably only do it once the wipers don't catch on the body though. Something fun to tinker with. 

Don't worry about it!  Tiny details, and not something you'd have noticed unless driving in the rain.  Parking position can't be very far off.  The way it behaves when turned off is identical to the way the wipers on the XJ-S behaved.  Which caused me no end of headache when the park switch got gummed up.  Think it was seven times I dismantled and rebuilt that sodding thing before it decided to cooperate...

Honestly, it would have been a pretty stressful drive even in the Caddy today so she did bloody well all things considered, especially with me still being unfamiliar with the car.

-- -- --

So, first impressions, stuff I've added to the to do list etc now I've got more than ten seconds available.

Aside from it being bloody brilliant anyway...

Really can't quite get my head around how these cars don't have more of a following.  

For a car of this age, it's quite easy to drive.  Not going to say its low stress, but I've driven things which are a hell of a lot more frenetic.

Also very surprised how long legged it is for a not exactly sporty car from the early 60s.  In overdrive she's entirely willing to cruise above the national speed limit on the motorway.  Only thing which really detracts from the sensation of ease there being the biblical levels of wind noise - but the door seals are utterly knackered so hoping that might improve refinement at least a bit once they're sorted.

The engine is incredibly smooth - and my gut feeling keeps being that I've stalled when I've pulled up at junctions as it's so damned quiet at idle.  Noise wise it's louder under load, but not an unpleasant noise.  What I really wasn't expecting was the very Jaguar-esque howl at higher revs.  Not sure if the hole in the exhaust is playing a part there...but I hope it doesn't disappear when that's fixed as it's rather pleasant.

Other nice noises include the utterly classic gear whine in the first three years, especially first.

I'm pretty sure the gearchange can be improved.  It feels far more stiff than I'd expect.  My guess is that the ball joint at the base of the lever may want greasing.  It is actually precise enough, but that makes it feel more vague.  I only managed to crunch one gear the whole trip - of course while SiC was in the car!

The lack of seatbelts does feel distinctly odd.  Given the standard of driving I see here on a day to day basis that's getting resolved shortly.  There's an outfit over in High Wycombe that specialises in period installs like this.  They'll be getting my business pretty much as soon as we're back from the US as I'm just not comfortable without any seatbelts.

Speaking of comfort though, this is indeed a very pleasant place to be.

Looking forward to getting stuck into reviving this too.

Resurrecting valve based tech is one of my other hobbies (albeit one I've not touched in a while), so I'm sure we'll get that going again.  

Likewise I've got a friend who I've seen restore several old clocks before, so I'm sure between us we'll be able to fix this.

Assuming it even needs fixing - may even just be missing a power supply.

Instrumentation needs a look at on two counts.

Firstly is the non functional brake warning light which has already been mentioned in SiC's thread on the car.  Secondly is that the speedometer has a very serious wobble meaning it gives at best a vague average.  My guess is the cable would benefit from some lubrication.

Steering is quite heavy, and gives absolutely no indication whatsoever what the front wheels are doing - but that's kind of par for the course on stuff of this era and so long as you're aware of it really isn't a problem.  Pretty sure it's lighter than the steering was in the Ladas I've had.  Plus the steering wheel is nicer.  Especially with the very old school metal spokes and horn ring.

It is slightly off centre though which leads to the occasional argument with the self cancelling mechanism for the indicators.  Really quite surprised to find self cancelling indicators on something this old.

Hoping I might get an opportunity to actually drive it tomorrow without the torrential rain so I can see where I'm going!

Seeing what's behind me would be nice too...the wing mirrors both reverted to the most aerodynamically advantageous position within about 90 seconds of joining the motorway.  Think I may need to resolve that.  The passenger side one is of limited value anyway as you can barely see it over the bonnet anyway...

Probably more to add to this tomorrow, but now sleep beckons.  It's been a long day, and the drive back was bloody mentally tiring, despite how well the car handled the conditions.

[SiC]

Pumping the front tyres from 36psi to 38psi (or even 40psi) apparently lightens the steering a bit. I personally only found the heavy steering a problem when stationary. Once rolling even a small bit then it lightens up a lot. Of course it's bad habit to dry steer. Zero to 1mm toe in maximum for radials I was told by the P4 guild if you go for wheel alignment.

While I think about it, there is quite a few turns needed when going around corners presumably from a high ratio rack. Definitely needs the wheel shuffle. First time I went into a side road, I almost ran out of turning from locking my arms across through bad habits!

Speedo might be old lube in the Speedo head snagging it up. I seem to reading that being mentioned in that little P4 drivers guild book. 

I thought she really was quite a lovely old thing. She needs some tinkering but shouldn't be anything needed that stops it being used as a usable car.

[SiC]

Apparently these are good for 120mph. Would need to be quite brave to take a P4 to that speed! Especially as they're a bit of an aerodynamic brick. 

[High Jetter]

2 hours ago, SiC said:

Tex wipers 

I'd forgotten about Tex!

46 minutes ago, SiC said:

Apparently these are good for 120mph. Would need to be quite brave to take a P4 to that speed! Especially as they're a bit of an aerodynamic brick. 

I think it's the stopping that needs bravery!

I haz period parts catalogue if you need any numbers.

[Zelandeth]

11 hours ago, SiC said:

Pumping the front tyres from 36psi to 38psi (or even 40psi) apparently lightens the steering a bit. I personally only found the heavy steering a problem when stationary. Once rolling even a small bit then it lightens up a lot. Of course it's bad habit to dry steer. Zero to 1mm toe in maximum for radials I was told by the P4 guild if you go for wheel alignment.

While I think about it, there is quite a few turns needed when going around corners presumably from a high ratio rack. Definitely needs the wheel shuffle. First time I went into a side road, I almost ran out of turning from locking my arms across through bad habits!

Speedo might be old lube in the Speedo head snagging it up. I seem to reading that being mentioned in that little P4 drivers guild book. 

I thought she really was quite a lovely old thing. She needs some tinkering but shouldn't be anything needed that stops it being used as a usable car.

Steering isn't bad, I'm plenty used to cars with weighty directional controls (several Ladas, van, a Saab with busted power steering), and the only time I really noticed it yesterday was the 73 point turn needed to reverse into the driveway because someone had parked a 7.5 tonne lorry across the road from our drive making it an exceptionally awkward space to get into.  Especially as I couldn't see what the heck I was doing.

I'll be taking that booklet with me on the trip tomorrow, should make some both interesting and useful reading for on the flight.

[Noel Tidybeard]

pah the raver would push a 7.5 tonner out of the way easy!😁

[Zelandeth]

10 hours ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

pah the raver would push a 7.5 tonner out of the way easy!😁

Given how low first gear is I don't doubt it for a second!

First errand out using the car today collecting some dog food to cover while we're away.

Far more pleasant driving the car while I can actually see where I'm going.

Really is a surprisingly pleasant thing to drive.  The suspension does a very good job of soaking up some pretty horrendous surfaces.  Have to admit around here I'll be appreciating that plenty.

She really does go surprisingly well for a car of this age.  Especially given that it's not exactly a car which you'd think from looking at it would be comfortable cruising at motorway speeds.  

As it was put by Phil A though, you don't so much drive as proceed.  Pulling away from a junction in particular, you don't so much accelerate as move off.  Everything you do has to be very deliberate, and there's no way you can rush it.  

For all it's quite a simple looking car, there are a lot of little details.

For one, this is back from when cars still had proper bonnet ornaments.

Those who know their Rover history better than me, did our Viking friend here have a name?

Neat little integrated toolbox underneath the glove box.

Surprised how many of the original components are still there.

They could have hidden the gear linkage away under the transmission tunnel.  Instead they chrome plated it and left the engineering on show.

Details which suggest how old a design this is include the handbrake.

It does however predate a lot of the research into ergonomics and making things intuitive or easy to figure out for the first time while driving.  The heating/ventilation controls take a bit of figuring out.

I have confirmed that the "screen" control isn't moving anything.  I'll need to investigate that sooner than later, at least ensuring it's in the open position if I can until the control cable can be sorted.

I may need some new door seals...

Some nice engineering under here as well as inside the car.

Indeed some over-engineering...I mean this intake setup is slightly over the top!

Some slightly odd engineering too...

Note what appear to be two valve covers...where you'd expect them to be on both a side valve and overhead valve engine.  Welcome to the world of the Inlet-Over-Exhaust (IOE) engine.  Yep...inlet is overhead, and exhaust is in the block as per an old school side valve.  I need to do some more reading on the history and how long this was used for.  It's a design I knew existed but had never really looked closely at until today.  Never even consciously realised this was an IOE setup until today.

Glad to report that oil and water usage on the run yesterday appears to have been nil, which is always nice to see.  Fuel usage looks to have been approximately 19mpg, which is a bit lower than I'd expect, but the conditions were pretty awful and I'm not 100% sure the tank was completely full before we left as the gauge seems to have gone further up when I fuelled up today.  Will keep an eye on it - not holding my breath around here, but if we could stay the right side of 20mpg that would be really nice.

We definitely do need to get the new coolant lines fitted once I'm back in the area though.

Quite crispy.

Still very happy with the car though, just wish I wasn't about to have to leave it sitting for a week and a half!

[High Jetter]

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

As it was put by Phil A though, you don't so much drive as proceed.  Pulling away from a junction in particular, you don't so much accelerate as move off.  Everything you do has to be very deliberate, and there's no way you can rush it.  

It's a Rover. Proceed is proper, it's in the manual.

[Zelandeth]

Well this trip is starting well.  Got an absolute grilling going through security, and we've been boarded onto the plane to be told that due to conditions at the destination airport that they're not expecting to depart sooner than 0830.  We were due to depart ten minutes ago.

We have a connecting flight.  We left two hours between the two.  Not that with at how short notice this was all arranged we had much choice.

Based on current estimates, we will arrive 10 minutes before our connecting flight is due to leave.  Unless that is also delayed, we've got problems.

It also means we're sitting here at the gate on a full, fully boarded regional jet which is hotter than the surface of the sun, and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.  What fun.

[SiC]

What I found surprising is that even with utterly knackered door seals, the interior stayed dry. This is (I believe) a door seal set for all the doors:

https://www.johnwearingp4parts.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=DOOR-SEAL-SET-OTHER

John Wearing appears to have better standing in the P4 community than JR Wadhams. I chatted to John on the phone about the servo and which kit to choose. Was very helpful. 

Inlet over exhaust and it's engineering was what got me interested in the P4. The heads, block and pistons look very weird on these. I believe it allowed them higher compression ratios and more power with the poor fuel quality at the time. This, being a 110, also has the Weslake treatment done to it too. 

What is surprising about Rover is their products on the outside appeared quite conservative but the engineering quite radical. Remember at the time they were even putting Jet Engines in a P4 too. 

The nylon fuel lines really surprised me on this. I thought it was a modern (90s+) car thing and had no idea that they were used this far back. 

[Split_Pin]

I'm just here to say what a beautiful old Rover this is. I always pored over pictures and articles of these big Aunties on Popular classics as a child.

Following with interest.

[bobdisk]

9 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

They could have hidden the gear linkage away under the transmission tunnel.  Instead they chrome plated it and left the engineering on show.

@Zelandeth I believe its there because it is adjustable, to make the change position comfortable for the driver. Dont know how. Look under the carpet, and ask the owners club.

[SiC]

Also before I forget to remind, I'll re-mention it's positive earth! You can switch the polarity to negative earth but I suspect that valve radio will be wired up as positive earth if you want to resurrect it. 

[Six-cylinder]

It's 1963 @Zelandeth and I have both bought brand new cars!

Zel's bought a Rover 110 at £1382 a solid reliable car showing the pillar of society that he is. I believe he is a director of a small engineering company employing 60 men. 

I bought a Peugeot 404 saloon at only £1076 showing the spirit of the era. A modern car that is slightly flamboyant and riskey, I am out on the edge buying foreign! I have started a successful auction house specialising in artwork and high value jewellery.

CPI inflation calculator says

£1382 is now £37023, £1076 is now £28799.

I would say the equivalent car to the Rover today is more likely to cost £50-60,000. Also the Peugeot equivalent is more likely to cost £40,000 +

When both our cars run nicely I would love to do a back to back test with Zel and his 1963 Rover.

[RichardK]

On 5/6/2023 at 11:29 PM, SiC said:

Apparently these are good for 120mph. Would need to be quite brave to take a P4 to that speed! Especially as they're a bit of an aerodynamic brick. 

Even @Inspector Morose's old one, which was rather less grunty than a 110, could be persuaded to hustle along at a fair pace on an A road and I had no problem worrying little Audi A3s and the like with it.

Steering ratio and brakes didn't worry me that much, but given the tiny lights and fact that I was  probably going faster than people realised (and quite used to putting a lot of force on the brakes quickly ahead of a bend) tailgaters scared me given the low, small lights.

I bet the 110 is one of the few affordable old-school classics you could comfortably motorway daily.

[barefoot]

When my old man used to work at Rolls Royce, he used to car share with a bloke who owned one of these. The wind noise was a problem even back then and the owner experimented with a blob of plasticine at the top of each A pillar which he used to add to & adjust until he made it all but silent. His car was well maintained at home and every time he changed the oil, the used was poured into the sills and box sections to prevent any rust. I can report that rust was never a problem with this vehicle which rather sadly ended its days after being struck by a Barton’s bus. It split asunder leaving a patch of oil on the main road through the village that was almost akin to the Torry Canyon disaster and remained there for a decade or more.

[PhilA]

4 hours ago, SiC said:

Also before I forget to remind, I'll re-mention it's positive earth! You can switch the polarity to negative earth but I suspect that valve radio will be wired up as positive earth if you want to resurrect it. 

Tube radios don't care, thankfully. All they care about is the voltage being right.

[Zelandeth]

On 5/8/2023 at 4:27 AM, Six-cylinder said:

It's 1963 @Zelandeth and I have both bought brand new cars!

Zel's bought a Rover 110 at £1382 a solid reliable car showing the pillar of society that he is. I believe he is a director of a small engineering company employing 60 men. 

I bought a Peugeot 404 saloon at only £1076 showing the spirit of the era. A modern car that is slightly flamboyant and riskey, I am out on the edge buying foreign! I have started a successful auction house specialising in artwork and high value jewellery.

CPI inflation calculator says

£1382 is now £37023, £1076 is now £28799.

I would say the equivalent car to the Rover today is more likely to cost £50-60,000. Also the Peugeot equivalent is more likely to cost £40,000 +

When both our cars run nicely I would love to do a back to back test with Zel and his 1963 Rover.

Yes, we will absolutely have to do a back to back comparison of the two.  They couldn't really be much different in design approach if they tried.

On 5/8/2023 at 4:22 AM, SiC said:

Also before I forget to remind, I'll re-mention it's positive earth! You can switch the polarity to negative earth but I suspect that valve radio will be wired up as positive earth if you want to resurrect it. 

I do wonder how many people this catches out.  Thankfully I've enough experience with stuff from this era that positive earth isn't a surprise.

Trying to figure out if a car is positive or negative earth when there's no battery and two red battery leads can be a good game though.

-- -- --

We did make the connecting flight - just!

Involved a mad sprint across the airport, literally, not helped by getting pulled asode for an enhanced security check - while the personnel there spent 80% of the time nattering among themselves than actually looking at the bags.

Plus had the joy of starting the first one with the guy pointing at my backpack and repeatedly shouting "Non!" At me repeatedly, you know context or anything would be way too useful.

Then got exactly the same treatment at the gate.

I seriously hate that bloody airport.

Then we eventually got to Detroit, having spent the whole flight with the person in the seat directly behind me complaining that they'd been feeling awful the last few days, and coughing and sneezing their lungs out.  You know if you're feeling sick and have to make a flight, maybe you could have at least put a mask on for the benefit of others, or at least try to cover your mouth when you cough/sneeze.  So fully expecting to have the joys of whatever that was to look forward to.

While we made the connection, sadly our luggage didn't.  Three of the four cases should be arriving here this evening it sounds like - though the tracking system has currently no trace of mine.  We're hoping this is a tracking system glitch, but we'll see.  It may be that my one has indeed just vanished into the aether.  We'll see I guess!

[SiC]

36 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

do wonder how many people this catches out.  Thankfully I've enough experience with stuff from this era that positive earth isn't a surprise

Nearly caught me out! Stuck the charger on while I was fiddling with the lights on/engine off and of course the case it grounded on the negative lead. 

[High Jetter]

4 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Three of the four cases should be arriving here this evening it sounds like - though the tracking system has currently no trace of mine. 

Hope your undies show up soon!

[Zelandeth]

Last case finally arrived...at some point overnight.  We've no idea when, we just discovered it when we opened the door to go out this morning.  It didn't help that Air France managed to put the wrong person's stickers on the cases versus the bag claim stickers on our passports, so the bags didn't have the right people's names on.  So I had them looking for a soft shell pink case rather than hard shell green one which was actually AWOL.  Got there in the end...moral of the story, don't use Air France, and for the love of all that's holy don't travel through Paris.

Rental car is a very boring 2021 Ford Explorer.  At least they've put the physical buttons back on the centre console rather than the idiotic touch panel nonsense the 2015 one we usually used had.  Engine is a wheezy four cylinder unit which feels about 100bhp short of being able to handle the weight of the vehicle, and the suspension is thoroughly European...great on Mid West concrete slab roads...

[chadders]

Alitalia used to be the same in one of their earlier incarnations, one time they managed to deliver my missing bag to the wrong Milan Airport.

It happens, no system is perfect. If you want hassle free hire a private jet.

[Zelandeth]

Why on earth would anyone buy a car with suspension like this over here?!?  Just in from an hour's drive and feel like I've been beaten up.

It's not even a European car for goodness sake...why spring the damned thing like an Audi?!?

Oh...of course.  Because everyone has to pretend to be the sodding Germans and no body even has the choice of comfort over track lap times any more...

[Noel Tidybeard]

because it will go round the nürburgring in less than 12 minutes

[Zelandeth]

Well our time in the US is drawing to a close.  One last meet up with some friends tomorrow for brunch then it's off to the airport.  Thankfully a direct flight home from Detroit rather than faffing about with any transfers.  We're used to flying through Detroit as well so that makes it feel at least a bit less stressful.

I'm only *slightly* concerned about my luggage having a critical structural integrity failure en route with how much stuff has ended up crammed into it... I'm just resigned to the fact it is going to be overweight.  Even so the fee for that is still far cheaper than the cost of shipping even half the contents home so we'll just deal with that.  

While it's been nice to see folks again, I'm really ready to be back home again.  While I really appreciate family putting us up, it's quite stressful staying here.  Ready to be back in a place where I'm in control of things like the temperature and where I'm not worried about unknowingly doing something that annoys someone.

Plus I really want to get back to looking over (and driving) the Rover!

Don't necessarily expect any sense from me for a few days though.  The time difference travelling to the UK from US sucks.  We'll basically be losing 5 hours - so we depart here at 1835 local, and arrive in Heathrow at 0715 the following morning - which my brain is going to think is 0215 in the morning...given I have sleep and energy management issues at the best of time, jetlag generally does wreck me pretty well these days.

[Zelandeth]

The trip home was bloody awful.  However we got there eventually.

Time to get back to this.

Spot the difference.

Yep, first new door seal is in.  Looks a bit healthier!

One down, three to go.  You can still see a little daylight around the top of this, but it's far better than it was.  The wind noise is still there, but has been reduced by several orders of magnitude.

I did notice when getting back from the test run I could smell a bit of coolant, sure enough it was dripping from the hose to the heater matrix.

The staining there suggests it has been for quite a while.  The hose actually just pulled straight off as it had compressed so much under the clip.  Lost about 50ml of coolant changing this as it's the highest point in the system and the leak was positioned such that it had let the water drain down into the rest of the system.

I've noticed that she does have a bit of a miss now and then, especially when cold.  While the surprisingly good impression of a V8 burble at idle might be amusing on the right car, it needs sorting.  Investigation has shown that we have a really weak spark on no 1.  Which is interesting as I know SiC has already done some fault finding on this.  We seem to have an absolutely solid spark at the other five cylinders (my eyes have just about stopped spinning from checking that), however removing the plug for no 1 at idle when cold does nothing.  Removing the bakelite lead holder entirely from the equation (as they have a tendency to go electrically leaky) we still have a very poor spark from that HT lead.  So it basically has to be the lead itself or the distributor cap I think - that's the only thing not shared with other cylinders I think.

Ran out of time today, but hopefully that will be pretty simple to sort as there's only so many variables involved.

Also noted this when I got back from a run this afternoon.

That's oil.  Quite a lot of oil.  Not quite as much oil as the Jag used to mark it's territory with, but close.  I was initially concerned this might have been coming from the rear main, but I'm not so sure now.  I'm not expecting this car to ever be 100% oil tight, but that's a little much.

There's definitely evidence of quite a lot of oil running down the right hand side of the block towards the rear.

Also visible pooled oil on the inlet manifold above that area.

I need to remove some stuff before I can really try to track this down.  It's currently a little buried as the right hand side of the engine bay is kinda busy.

Wondering if it might be something as simple as a wrecked intake valve cover gasket given it does look quite well squished where I can see it towards the rear.  No idea when the valve clearances were last checked anyway so would definitely not hurt to check those anyway.

I'm just waiting on coolant arriving so I can get the rest of the cooling system hoses changed.

 

[High Jetter]

7 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

I did notice when getting back from the test run I could smell a bit of coolant, sure enough it was dripping from the hose to the heater matrix.

How old is/was that hose tho? Mebbe original? 

[Zelandeth]

15 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

How old is/was that hose tho? Mebbe original? 

Wouldn't surprise me at all if they're original.  They all seem to have identical labelling on.  They've definitely held up pretty well I say!

A full new set came with the car, so as soon as I've got fresh coolant to go in they'll all be getting changed.

[SiC]

That damn cylinder 1 spark. I thought I cracked that. 

Couple things I did notice:

 - the acorn screw on the top is slightly different than the others and screws down to the bottom. Almost feels a modern plastic. I'm wondering if it's bottoming out without making enough pressure onto the contact. There should be spare HT connectors with acorn cap things in the boxes of spares. 

 - I did notice that lifting the back of the cap about 1mm or 2mm made the number 1 go slightly brighter. Then I found the LT spade dodgy and number 1 went bright again after fixing that. So I presumed it was that rather than moving the cap. Possibly worth a try again to see if it changes things. Obviously go careful with moving the cap with the engine running as you don't want any rotor/cap interfacing. 

 - Worth trying the old black rotor arm to see if that has any behavioural differences. 

There is a spare brand new cap and leads in the box of spares. It's the plug in type which I kinda prefer as not as likely to leak electrons in the wrong place. Isn't as pretty as the original though. However the king lead is too short for the 110 and you'll need a coil to take plugs. My plan was to buy a length HT cable from eBay with HT connectors and crimp it together. 

These are handy to give a quick cursory check across all cylinders:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361553428050