Renault 6 rescue (Aug 2020 - rehomed)

[somewhatfoolish]

I finally got fed up with seeing this thing festering in the garage.

So yesterday I pushed it out into the daylight and attempted to remove the cylinder head.

After the usual compulsory removal of several non-related parts (including the gearchange and the accelerator cable) I managed to remove the rocker cover, to be greeted by this:

 

20180512_112225.jpg

 

If my memory serves me correctly these should be covered in oil, not rust.

Maybe the engine was starved of oil originally, which led to it being taken off the road.

This motor ain't turning over any time soon, if ever.

I've seen less rusty things rescued from the bottom of the sea, which is where this lump of Regie clinker probably belongs. Time for a new/old engine.

[Slowsilver]

Once again I am staggered by the large and encouraging response to my latest post.

Rest assured that if it was not for all the feedback we have received from you folks this thing would definitely be baked bean cans by now.

You are obviously all determined to persuade me not to scrap it.

I will endeavour to reply to some of your comments in the order in which they were posted.

 

Quote:

 

That engine is fucked. Are the club able to point you in the direction of a better one.
Wouldn't bale it, stick it on eBay. Even if its fucked it will sell.

 

Haven't joined the Renault Owners club yet.

Not sure they would help if I'm not a member.

Might be worth investing £20.

Does anyone know how good/bad/indifferent the club is?

 

The scrap-it idea was probably just a spur of the moment reaction.

If it has to go I would hope that maybe a committed and suitably masochistic Renophile on here would take it on.

If not, the Bay of E might at least recoup some of the money spent so far.

 

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is this pretty much the same Cléon unit as found in 1980s R4s?

 

No ! This is the ancient Billancourt engine, as seen in 4CVs and the such.

Later versions of the R6 used the Cleon, and you could certainly retro-fit one, but only if you have an entire spares car to use engine/transmission/driveshafts/mountings/linkages off.

 

Have been reading up on this.

Apparently the early pre-facelift models like this one use a different gearbox with the driveshafts secured to the diff with rollpins, while the driveshafts on the later facelift models simply* plug in.

The gearshift pattern is also different. The later models have a conventional H pattern gate, with reverse out on a limb, whereas the early models have reverse where first should be and fourth gear out on a limb.

According to a Motor magazine road test in January 1970 the 845cc engine in the early 6 is not the same as the 4, a new camshaft and carburettor raising the power from 28 to a huge* 34 bhp and increasing the top speed by a whole 4 mph to 71.4, despite the 6 being heavier than the 4. However an early 4 engine would probably fit OK. I could live with 6 bhp and 4 mph less if it saves the car.

I believe that a version of the 845cc engine was carried over to the facelift models alongside the new 1108cc unit, but have no idea whether it was the same engine or if a later 845 or 1108cc engine will fit on an early gearbox.

 

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Paul Cunningham, the Renault whiz in Worthing, is the man for you.

 

Thanks for the tip.

May contact him about another engine.

If I can find a good early engine I may be able to re-use the existing gearbox.

 

Quote:

 

DW speaks much sense
You are at the stage where you either need expertise & tools, or money.
There is no soft alternate, if you want to keep it.
Don't make the mistake of storing it till " something comes up", as you'll just push it back & back until it's worthless, resent it's low value & frag it. It's better than that.
Me, I'd look to buy an alternate on Leboncoin-& as Panhard ( nicely) to pick it up on his way through. They are small, light units, there are a few dotted about- & it seems like your cheapest option.
Failing that, there are others here who travel the continent. All it needs is comms.
I'm sure several here, close ( ish) to you would muster to swop over.
So, ask for help, or offer it up. Never easy, but most of us have been there.

 

Point taken.

I have a garage full of tools, have stripped and rebuilt numerous engines and money is not a problem. What I don't want to do is use too much of anything on a project which may ultimately be doomed to failure.

Roadworthy examples (admittedly French and LHD) seem to be sellng currently for around £1000 - 1500, which is not mega money. Although this is not a money-making exercise, I would like to be able to at least recoup what I spend.

Even if new parts are available and I rebuild the engine myself then fitting and honing new liners, regrinding the crank and fitting new pistons, rings, big end and main bearings and thrust washers, plus ancilliary bits and bobs like timing chain and water pump etc. is probably going to add up to about a grand.

As various people have suggested, a good second-hand engine is probably the best way forward. But unless you can see and hear it running how do you know it is OK. I don't relish the idea of replacing one knackered engine with another one.

The offers of help are however much appreciated.

 

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I am off to Le Mans in June and again in July and should have room to chuck an engine and box in if you want me to hit leboncoin for you. I won't have time to look in Spain next week but will ask if they have anything lying around.

 

Offering to collect another engine from France is above and beyond the call of duty and I am very grateful for the offer.

 

Quote:

 

Shame to see the motor is rogered, but as always, hugely heartwarming to see the offers of help in sourcing, transporting and helping with another lump. Whatever you do, do NOT frag.

 

Amen to that. Don't worry, after all this encouragement it won't get fragged.

 

Quote:

 

The only time I've seen that sort of mess inside an engine that hadn't simply been left open to the elements for decades was one that had been left sitting for a while after the head gasket had failed.

The resulting acidic oil and water mixture left sitting in the thing had resulted in pretty much every single internal ferrous component looking pretty much like the image you found under that rocker cover.  This is why when that happened on my Saab it got no less than three oil changes before I parked it up in the corner to await further attention.

My guess is that a head gasket failure is what took that car off the road, and it's been left with "wet" oil in the engine as a result.

 

An interesting and highly plausible hypothesis. There was none of the normal mayonnaise in the oil or the inside of the rocker cover, but presumably all the water will have evaporated after 23 years. The oil looks to be at about the right level and not too dirty but not brand new, so I doubt that it actually ran out of oil. HGF is certainly a strong possibility.

 

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They are known for ruining their headgaskets too when they've been recommissioned after being stood a while, conventional wisdom was to replace it before getting the car on the road as that bit, at least, is easy to do.  To remove it's not difficult, just really annoying.  Bonnet and 'face' need to come off, as does the gear selector cross brace.   The engine mounts are a pain in the arse to get to just like everything else in the engine bay, but you can do it from under the car without jacking it up, just getting the right combination of extensions and sockets is tricky and a lot of it has to be done blind.  Engine and box come out together easily enough and don't weigh a great deal, thankfully.   Don't try and drop the engine out the bottom, you can't, it has to come out the top.   You might have to remove the front bumper depending on the reach on your crane.  I can't remember if the earlier engine has lifting points, but I know the later one doesn't so you have to loop straps/chains around the engine to lift it out and that's annoying too.

 

Many thanks for all this useful info.

I was going to ask if HGF was a common problem on these engines. As far as I know the car was in regular use when it failed and had not been laid up then recommissioned. However the previous owner did have another car as well as the 6 for some time, so it may well have sat unused for a period of time. Unfortunately the only person that knows for sure is no longer with us.

I had a large RSJ installed in the roof of my garage when it was built, specifically for hauling engines out, so this little thing should be no problem to remove.

 

Quote:

 

Earlier engines are easier to get bits for, pretty sure Der Franzose will do everything he needs.  Later engines not so much.

 

Interesting to know. I assumed that the earlier engines would be more difficult to source spare parts for.

 

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How thin is a thin walled socket?
Looks like the Bini requires a 14mm thin wall socket to remove their Spark Plugs.
Like this:
https://rover.ebay.c...tm/252272524020
Or
https://rover.ebay.c...tm/163019251430

 

Thanks for the links. It had occured to me that the bolts were spark plug sized and I considered grinding down one of my existing sockets to fit but was concerned that if I ground it too thin it would split. I didn't know that thin-walled sockets were available off the shelf (and cheaply). I have ordered a 14mm box spanner to grind down and try first but if that fails I will certainly try one of these.

 

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I'm happy to do that if an engine can be found vaguely en-route.  Moog is heading back from the South of France too and has a whole van to put it in.  Both vehicles will probably head up through M40 land too.

 

I am coming back from Grenoble with an empty transit in two weeks if that is any use?  Happy to pick up an engine if you want.

 

Once again the generosity of shiters astounds me. Offers of collection from a foreign land and delivery to very near me. Who could ask for more.

 

Sorry if this post has degenerated into a TL:DR but I felt I must acknowledge all of your kind replies. They are much appreciated.

 

Watch this space for further updates, on progress or otherwise.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Just a thought on the gearbox. May be worth assuming it's also rogered, especially after the bump start efforts, followed by weird gearbox noises and behaviour. At least if you source a sound working engine and 'box, they'll theoretically make this 6 work again without too much hassle*.

 

* Don't quote me on this.

* I don't take responsibility for anything hitting fans.

[dollywobbler]

When I had my 5, I was a member of the Renault Classic Car Club. I'm not sure which is your best bet out of the two clubs. I don't think they have bunfights like some rival clubs do.

[Six-cylinder]

I know where there is a head for a 845cc.

[panhard65]

How about this one ? Looks like it comes with the gearbox turns over but no idea if it runs. 50 euro seems pretty reasonable. https://img1.leboncoin.fr/ad-image/205e90d60cc4ff4293f3bd53ec5e2a5e49a0bbd6.jpg

[Mrs6C]

I finally got fed up with seeing this thing festering in the garage.

So yesterday I pushed it out into the daylight and attempted to remove the cylinder head.

After the usual compulsory removal of several non-related parts (including the gearchange and the accelerator cable) I managed to remove the rocker cover, to be greeted by this:

Yikes! No wonder the poor thing wouldn't turn over!

[Zelandeth]

If it were mine first thing I'd do would be pull the engine (given that the whole rear engined config crammed in the front setup seems to make everything awkward) at this point. Then I'd strip it down at least partly.

 

That way you get a decent view of how fscked or not it is. For the sake of an afternoon of work it would be a useful exercise to allow you to better know whether it's a rebuild or replacement that you're after. ... especially as the gearbox needs looked at too.

 

Silly question - but whereabouts are you? No specific experience with this car, but I've had a few engines out of cars (and considerably more out of buses)...and there's nothing I enjoy more than taking things to bits to forensically analyse what caused the failure...

[wuvvum]

He's literally just up the road from you.

[Parky]

I would be inclined to do a partial strip too, my curiosity would get the better of me and you never know, the block might be ok and the head might not be as bad as you think. I would have to say it’s a bit of a long shot in this case, it does look pretty jiggered.

 

Once that head is off it will be easier to strip to see if anything is serviceable.

[Talbot]

How about this one ? 50 euro seems very cheap and a bargain

FTFY. An engine and box that is the one you want for your irritating pile of mixed metals for less than £50 is a megabarg. Yes, it's in France, but even from grid central Milton Keynes, it's still likely closer than Scotland.

 

As for getting the current silly-in-der-head off, Definitely just modify a socket. I've machined a fair bit from various sockets/spanners/etc. in the past to get them to fit into interesting* places. The trick is to make sure that you don't excessively overheat the socket while grinding it (and hence wreck any heat-treatment it's had) and that when using it you keep all forces in nice straight lines, all torques parallel to the bolt being undone etc. Also, start with a decent quality 6-sided socket, as not only are they less likely to slip, they have more material close to the driving surfaces, so will tolerate losing some periphery material better than a 12-point one.

 

Once you've got the head off and confirmed that the pistons are almost completely corroded away, and that the liners have all moved (and were rotten anyway) you can then heave the remaining block/box out and have a hole ready for a replacement engine. And you'll have experienced how the old one comes out, so will know just what fun* lies ahead for getting the replacement engine in.

 

Nice weather for it...

[Slowsilver]

I would be inclined to do a partial strip too, my curiosity would get the better of me and you never know, the block might be ok and the head might not be as bad as you think. I would have to say it’s a bit of a long shot in this case, it does look pretty jiggered.

Once that head is off it will be easier to strip to see if anything is serviceable.

 

Once you've got the head off and confirmed that the pistons are almost completely corroded away, and that the liners have all moved (and were rotten anyway) you can then heave the remaining block/box out and have a hole ready for a replacement engine. And you'll have experienced how the old one comes out, so will know just what fun* lies ahead for getting the replacement engine in.

 

This is the current plan. I am intending to attempt* to remove the cylinder head and the sump with with the engine still in the car to check the condition of the rest of the engine. It will doubtless be in the state so eloquently suggested by Talbot, but worth a look before hoiking it out.

 

Silly question - but whereabouts are you? No specific experience with this car, but I've had a few engines out of cars (and considerably more out of buses)...and there's nothing I enjoy more than taking things to bits to forensically analyse what caused the failure...

 

Thanks for the offer. I understand that you are somewhere in Milton Keynes and I am in Buckingham, so only less than 20 miles away.

If you have any spare time to pop over I would be most grateful. If you would like to PM me sometime I will send you my contact details.

[Parky]

Is it worth looking for an 1108cc engine as a replacement? Strikes me as an easy power and torque hike or are there too many detail differences?

 

Early Renault 5’s had a similar front mounted gearbox arrangement and there must be more of those in La Belle France than 6’s.

 

That would be a decent day out - buy shagged out 5 in Calais, limp it back onto the EuroShuttle, and cross fingers when you get back to Blighty!

[wuvvum]

I would imagine there would be quite a few drivetrain differences between a 5 and a 6.  A rotten 4 might be a better bet - although the 1108cc engine in those was detuned to 34bhp so you wouldn't actually be gaining any power over the 845.

[Slowsilver]

Is it worth looking for an 1108cc engine as a replacement? Strikes me as an easy power and torque hike or are there too many detail differences?

 

Early Renault 5’s had a similar front mounted gearbox arrangement and there must be more of those in La Belle France than 6’s.

 

That would be a decent day out - buy shagged out 5 in Calais, limp it back onto the EuroShuttle, and cross fingers when you get back to Blighty!

 

 

Exhibit #1 M'Lord, courtesy of Sir Sigmund Fraud.

Quote:

 

Later versions of the R6 used the Cleon, and you could certainly retro-fit one, but only if you have an entire spares car to use engine/transmission/driveshafts/mountings/linkages off.

 

Exhibit #2, courtesy of some idiot who knows sod all about this sort of stuff.

Quote:

 

Apparently the early pre-facelift models like this one use a different gearbox with the driveshafts secured to the diff with rollpins, while the driveshafts on the later facelift models simply* plug in.

The gearshift pattern is also different. The later models have a conventional H pattern gate, with reverse out on a limb, whereas the early models have reverse where first should be and fourth gear out on a limb.

 

I did consider fitting a later engine and possibly gearbox too but, judging by how the recalicitrant little sod has behaved so far, just fitting another one of the same type will be painful enough without changing driveshafts, mountings, cables, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Does anyone know if the 1108cc and/or later 845cc engines would fit straight on to the existing mountings and the early gearbox?

It would be quite amusing to fit a later gearbox but retain the existing gear knob though. Then first would be labelled as reverse and reverse as fourth. Good off the wall anti-theft device methinks. Not that anyone in their right mind would want to nick this thing. Oh wait, some of us here on Autoshite are clearly not in our right minds or we wouldn't be doing this type of stuff.

[Parky]

Mmmm, I see. As usual typical Renault.

 

Probably easier to covert it to rear wheel drive using bits of Marina!

[Slowsilver]

Margault ?

Or Retina ?

[Sigmund Fraud]

Does anyone know if the 1108cc and/or later 845cc engines would fit straight on to the existing mountings and the early gearbox?

 

All the Billancourt-type engines are interchangeable, so the 845cc out of a Renault 4 or early Renault 5 should fit. This would be the best option, I suspect there's still a few of those around France.

 

The 1108cc is the later/larger Cleon-type, which is not in any way compatible with the Billancourt-type (for starters, they rotate in the opposite direction !). As per my previous post, if you want a Renault 6 with a Cleon engine, you'll need to transplant most of the running gear from a late, Cleon-powered Renault 4/6.

[Mrs6C]

This is the current plan. I am intending to attempt* to remove the cylinder head and the sump with with the engine still in the car to check the condition of the rest of the engine. It will doubtless be in the state so eloquently suggested by Talbot, but worth a look before hoiking it out.

 

 

Thanks for the offer. I understand that you are somewhere in Milton Keynes and I am in Buckingham, so only less than 20 miles away.

If you have any spare time to pop over I would be most grateful. If you would like to PM me sometime I will send you my contact details.

The AS party will be in your garage, then? I'll bring the cider and Six-cylinder can bring a selection of kit and his best shouty voice for when the bolts don't want to turn...

[wuvvum]

For added shite points, find and fit a 603cc engine from a Renner Three.

[Zelandeth]

 

Thanks for the offer. I understand that you are somewhere in Milton Keynes and I am in Buckingham, so only less than 20 miles away.

If you have any spare time to pop over I would be most grateful. If you would like to PM me sometime I will send you my contact details.

 

Yep, I'm based pretty much smack in the centre of MK, so just down the road from you (especially given that I grew up in the back end of nowhere in Aberdeenshire, so anything under 50 miles is still "just down the road" to my mind!).

 

I'll drop you a PM with my contact details as well.  As stated, I've never even sat in a Renault 6, but I'm happy to be an extra pair of hands or an extra brain to bounce ideas off, and to note down any new expletives that are invented when arguing with the car. 

 

Think the Saab was probably the single car I had which was the worst I've had for that.  Mainly *because* it was so over-engineered.  Where a 10mm bolt would have done the job just fine, no...Saab would have used a 17mm one and had Thor himself tighten it...then they'd position something in the way so you couldn't get a decent sized tool on it.  There's a reason that the new crankshaft oil seals were still in the glovebox four years after I bought them...

[Eric]

Changing from 845 to a 1108 engine is not that simple...you need the gearbox also, because otherwise , a four speed..backwards will be the case

I do have a complete set, but i'm on the other side of the channel, but very close to the ferry Ijmuiden-Newcastle

[dollywobbler]

Changing from 845 to a 1108 engine is not that simple...you need the gearbox also, because otherwise , a four speed..backwards will be the case

I do have a complete set, but i'm on the other side of the channel, but very close to the ferry Ijmuiden-Newcastle

 

I should perhaps mention that I plan to be in The Netherlands this summer, though not sure what in yet! Might not be able to carry an engine.

[mk2_craig]

A friend of mine found this place today. Saumur, apparently

 

[Slowsilver]

Not getting a head (off).

 

Abject failure so far on the removal of the cylinder head.

Option #1: Bought 14mm thin-wall box spanner (spark plug style). Undid one of the end bolts then managed to jam it between the rockers and hammer it onto another bolt head. Applied the normal level of brute force and ignorance. Result: one rounded off box spanner.

Option #2: Purchased thin-walled spark plug socket intended for new Minis as kindly suggested by SiC. Outside diameter 18mm and no way can be ground any thinner. Distance between rocker arms = 16mm. Failed again.

The rear bolt is also underneath the bulkhead so the height of the socket plus the bar can't be more than about 100mm.

Have searched for "Renault part number Mot 23-12 384" but as expected it appears to be unobtainium.

Having done measurings I think it should look something like this:

 

 

I am no mechanical engineer (or draughtsman as you can plainly see from the above), but I think it could be made from a 60mm length of 20mm diameter bar with a 14mm AF hexagon machined into one end, about 8mm deep to just about cover the depth of the bolt head, then waisted down to 16mm diameter as close as possible above the top of the hex cutout (about 5mm?) without weakening it too much, with a 10mm square by 10mm deep recess machined into the other end to take a 3/8" drive tommy bar. The 60mm overall length would allow the top of it to clear the top of the rocker arms without fouling on the bulkhead.

Apart from not having access to the equipment necessary to make this, I have no idea how you make hexagonal and square holes in a piece of round metal bar.

Presumably it would also have to be made from a fairly hard material, or hardened afterwards.

Is there anyone out there in Autoshite land who has the expertise and access to the kit needed to make one of these things?

Some (though hopefully not too many) pictures of the queen could be forthcoming as a reward.

Here's hoping!

[Sigmund Fraud]

Could this page (translated here, si vous ne parlez pas Francais) have the answer to your problem ?

[vulgalour]

I wonder if you can cut a socket with the relevant nut and ratchet ends in half, then weld the hex part to one end and the square end to the other end of a plain steel bar.  It should give you the access needed and for minimal cost, the tool doesn't have to be pretty but it would be cheap to make this way since it could be done with a grinder and a welder, really.  I'd be surprised if there's enough torque on the bolts to break the welds on something like this and it's at least cheap and easy to make another one if it does break.

 

Edited to add: In fact, if you used a socket extension bar you didn't care about to weld to the cut down socket, the would likely be perfectly strong enough since it's already made to cope with the stresses of the work.

[Asimo]

Should not the rocker assembly / assemblies come off before undoing any head bolts?

Edit - ignore^^^^^^, I just read the post about the crazy rocker shaft arrangement featured in this engine design.

 

Ps - if you want to turn an engine by towing always use TOP gear. The least number of engine revolutions per wheel revolution equates to the lowest forces on wheels, driveshafts and gears for a given torque at the clutch when you are dragging the poor thing down the road.

[wuvvum]

Just re-read the post about gearboxes - I never knew the early 6s had a 2CV-style shift pattern. 

 

I once (briefly) had possession of a 1967 R4 which had a 3-speed 'box with a dogleg (non-synchro) first - I wonder if the 6 used the same 'box with an extra gear tacked on?

 

Dogleg first - just* like a Maserati.

[Slowsilver]

I wonder if you can cut a socket with the relevant nut and ratchet ends in half, then weld the hex part to one end and the square end to the other end of a plain steel bar.  It should give you the access needed and for minimal cost, the tool doesn't have to be pretty but it would be cheap to make this way since it could be done with a grinder and a welder, really.  I'd be surprised if there's enough torque on the bolts to break the welds on something like this and it's at least cheap and easy to make another one if it does break.

 

Edited to add: In fact, if you used a socket extension bar you didn't care about to weld to the cut down socket, the would likely be perfectly strong enough since it's already made to cope with the stresses of the work.

 

Excellent idea about welding an extension bar on to a cut-down socket. Didn't think of that.

In fact the illustration of the proper Renault tool on the page kindly linked to by Sigmund Fraud looks like it is exactly that.

Could even use a 1/2" drive extension for more strength as it would still be thin enough.

I have several 14mm sockets and 1/2" extensions so could certainly sacrifice one of each.

Unfortunately I no longer have access to welding gear, but could maybe find someone locally to weld it for me.

 

According to this same page the rocker shaft can be removed and the rocker arms moved to allow access, but that assumes that the engine can be turned (which it can't) and that the rocker arms are not seized onto the shaft (which these most certainly are).