Renault 6 rescue (Aug 2020 - rehomed)

[Slowsilver]

3 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

Don't s'pose there's any chance of separating gearbox from engine and then getting the engine out from behind the 'box whilst leaving the driveshafts in situ?  (I could quite easily answer this question myself by going outside and looking under the bonnet of my own 6, but it's dark and I can't be arsed.)

Good thought but I don't think so. Back front? timing gear end of engine is very close to the bulkhead and won't move back enough for the first motion shaft to clear the bellhousing. Either the gearbox has to come out first or the engine and gearbox need to come out together.  Both would seem to involve driveshaft removal unfortunately.

Actually on reflection it might be possible if the gearbox would move forward enough on the CV joints with the driveshafts still attached. May be worth a try.
 

[vulgalour]

To do it, you have to remove the front panel and bonnet, then undo the engine mounts and the gearbox mount, lift the whole thing up and forwards so the bumper end of the gearbox is resting on the front crossmember and then you can just about split the gearbox from the engine.  The driveshafts will want to fall out anyway, because they like to do that, and you'll feel like you're wrestling with the worlds biggest toddler and resort to just pulling the whole thing out of the car so you can work on it on the floor. You've got maybe 6" between the back of the engine and the bulkhead at the top, more at the bottom.  You can get a bit more clearance by removing the rocker cover and rocker assembly, so if the head is still off you might actually have a good amount of wiggle room.

Once you've got the engine and box out do EVERYTHING.  Getting the damn thing in and out of the engine bay, especially on your own, is an absolute ballache.

[Slowsilver]

On 8/18/2019 at 7:30 PM, Slowsilver said:

Tried from both directions with the same non-result. Didn't try banging them both out together with a 5mm punch, which might work better as it is less likely to bend or break than the 3mm ones. I assumed that because there were two the inner one would have to come out first. I think the problem might be that if you hit them off-centre initially it peens the end of the pin over and makes them even more difficult to remove.

Happened to be in the garage today doing other stuff. Hence had grubby gear on and dirty hands. When I had finished I remembered what had been said on here, so on the way out I grabbed the 5mm punch and a large lump hammer and took a good swing at it. After 3 hits both the pins moved together and came out! This was going to be a deal breaker and I was on the brink of offering it for sale on here, but now I might just persevere with it, at least until I encounter the next apparently insurmountable problem, which I have no doubt will be very soon. But for now, a reprieve. Many thanks to @Asimo and @bunglebus for the suggestion, even though in both cases it appears to have been accidental as neither of them realised there are actually two concentric pins.
 

[beko1987]

Yey, if in doubt, give it a clout

[Noel Tidybeard]

On 8/18/2019 at 1:42 PM, beko1987 said:

I'd be up for standing in your garage pointing, drinking tea and making derogatory noises if it happens! 

EFA

[Slowsilver]

A mere two years after acquisition, progress is being made again.
Yesterday @Six-cylinder and @Andyrew journeyed to the Silver's abode to join @quicksilver and @Slowsilver to form an impromptu working party.
General overview of the theatre of war:

Featuring SixCylinder's Alfa, Andyrew's Discovery, the Silvers' Zafira and the Silvers' inevitable photo-bombing Maxi. A couple of suspicious characters lurk in the garage doorway, obscuring the remains of Bob the Renault festering in the garage.

I had already managed to remove the driveshafts (see above) and then the gearbox, which came out fairly easily with the front panel out of the way.

Does anyone know if there is supposed to be a cover over this hole? The  clutch and flywheel assembly appear to be exposed to the elements, with no sign there has ever been any sort of cover over it. Seems like a recipe for shortening the life of the clutch plate.

I had also disconnected everything from the engine and unbolted the engine mounts, so the engine was just resting on the chassis rails, ready to be lifted out.
Andyrew kindly brought along his engine crane, so battle could commence.

Initial position:

Andyrew was rightfully concerned that the piece of chain I had found, which looks like it had come from an old pull and clank cistern, would not be up to the job, so he added a long webbing strap before we proceeded.

All strapped up and ready to go. SixCylinder records the event for posterity.

It's out! SixCylinder mans the pump, Slowsilver guides the way and Andyrew oversees proceedings.

Heading for the safety of the workbench.

A gaping hole.

The eagle has landed.

Stay tuned for the next thrilling* episode, where we tear it asunder and reveal the horrors that lie beneath.

 

[LightBulbFun]

ohh happy to see people getting together and helping out  

and nice to see some work being done to the 6 once more, I always find such work most interesting, especially as im still learning about everything to do with cars/engines!

 

but I am most curious about that fluorescent light in this picture, you dont happen to have some close up pictures of it for me to oogle over do you?  

 

I THINK its an atlas Superlim, defo has a British lighting industries label of some kind still stuck on it which is cool to see  (with bonus trough reflector which is quite rare)

 

I look forward to the second installment!

[vulgalour]

There was a hole in the casing on mine where a pulley slotted in, though it looks like it's a different gearbox to yours?  Perhaps you're missing a pulley rather than a cover.

[egg]

Very pleased, as at FoTU, you were having doubts about whether to continue, excellent! Keep it up.

[Six-cylinder]

45 minutes ago, vulgalour said:

There was a hole in the casing on mine where a pulley slotted in, though it looks like it's a different gearbox to yours?  Perhaps you're missing a pulley rather than a cover.

Not all Renault 6s had belt driven two stage superchargers!

[Mrs6C]

37 minutes ago, Six-cylinder said:

Not all Renault 6s had belt driven two stage superchargers!

Don't be silly. Obviously the missing pulley was for that rare France-only option of air-conditioning...

[wuvvum]

Slowsilver's engine also appears to be missing a pair of sunglasses.  Maybe that's where the issue is.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

16 hours ago, Slowsilver said:

....General overview of the theatre of war:

If all else fails, I suppose you could always consider a planning application to extend the upstairs of your house over the double garage....

[Slowsilver]

OK folks. Pull up a chair and prepare for round two.

Sump off. Crank and conrods look a tad rusty but no major problems evident.

Main bearing caps off. Slight wear as expected but probably still serviceable.

Big end caps off. Condition as above.

Crankshaft out.

At this point we tried to push the pistons up in the bores, but no dice.
On reflection we should have left the liner clamping bar in place and then belted the pistons up the liners, but by now we were flagging and common sense went out of the window. So we removed the bar then thwacked the con rods upwards.
The two pistons at the timing gear end slid out nicely and, apart from a couple of stuck rings, looked to be OK but the other two came out complete with their liners.
 

The flywheel end liner was the mankiest by far.

Not surprising looking at the state of the cesspit it was living in.

That concludes the evidence for the prosecution.

The next step will be to soak the two stuck pistons and liners in diesel for a week or so then try and bash the pistons out using brute force.
The big question now is where to go next.

Option 1:

If the pistons come out without too much damage to the liners, rebuild the whole thing with maybe a new set of piston rings and possibly a new set of liners, leaving the bottom end as is.
Pros: Cheap and quick. Can do it myself.
Cons: Will probably run sick as a pig and burn lots of oil, or not run at all.

Option 2:

New pistons, rings and liners, crank regrind, new main and big end bearings.
Pros: Might result in a half decent engine.
Cons: Expensive. No real idea how much but even if the new parts are still available I guess the cost will run to several hundred pounds. Would have to pay a specialist for the machining. Need  to talk to an engine reconditioner to get an idea of just how expensive it would be.

Option 3:

Buy second-hand engine.
Pros: Would be the easiest solution if it is in reasonable working order.
Cons: Don't seem to be many available. May have to get one from France. No way I could collect it and presumably any sort of carriage charge would be high, even assuming a successful deal could be struck with a FRENCH.
How do I know if it is any good. Can check that it turns over I suppose, but that doesn't really prove anything. Don't relish going to the effort of fitting and connecting up another engine only to find it's knackered.

Option 4:

Sack it off for a few hundred quid to someone who would be prepared to finish it off and get it back on the road.
Pros: Saves me lots of further grief. Remember this car was taken off the road 25 years ago because "something went wrong with it". It may have been the engine seizing but not necessarily. It may have seized subsequently while sitting around, in which case I could install a working engine only to find that there is another major problem with it.
Cons: Seems a shame to not see it through to the bitter end and it would be nice to see it back on the road. However, I have never really taken to this thing and I know there will be lots of other stuff that will need doing before it is fully roadworthy.

I am sure that by now I have bored everyone rigid with my ramblings, but before I conclude this saga for now I would like to offer my grateful thanks to @Six-cylinder and @Andyrew for their invaluable help with the engine outing, and particularly to Andyrew for the loan of his engine crane. Without their assistance this project could not have progressed and I would be staring grudingly at the engine, still in situ, every time I went into the garage. Also to Mrs. Silver for copious quantities of tea, cake and biscuits.

All comments, suggestions, observations and derision welcome (well maybe not derision!).

[LightBulbFun]

interesting stuff  

if the original engine is  prohibitively expensive to rebuild and other second hand engines are hard to come by

is there some other make/model of engine that might bolt in? would that be a potential 5th option?

or is the engine one of those things that make a renault 6 as such you would like to stick with an engine of original type?

[Cleon-Fonte]

I'd personally opt for option 2, ultimately Renault were churning these engines out for 40+ years so parts aren't spectacularly hard to find and rebuilding them isn't rocket science. Der Franzose (at the pricier end of the market) do a set of pistons and liners and bearing shells, for instance, and there are probably numerous other suppliers if you shop around.

For a secondhand engine your best bet is probably the Renault 4 Forum, someone should at least know where there's one available. It's also a useful fount of knowledge when it comes to working on these old heaps, there's not much the membership hasn't seen before.

[Andyrew]

If there's not much love for it then Me personally, I'd go option 1.  Replace / spend the very bare minimum and get it moving under it's own power. 

It would be good enough to test the gearbox up to speed, see if the ignition / fuel system functions okay, checking for charging and cooling problems.

At the end of the day the engine can always come back out, wether you decide for that to be you problem or pass it onto someone who has more desire for it is up to you.

 

 

 

 

 

[nigel bickle]

Clean it all up, take a view

Talk to Paul Cunningham, font of all knowledge on this era Renner. He’ll guide you right - although you might not like what you hear!

[wuvvum]

[wuvvum]

Re the possibility of buying a replacement engine - maybe someone going to Frogfest could bring one back with them?

[vulgalour]

@Cleon-Fonte summed up the experience of trying to sort out an R6 engine nicely.  https://www.renault4.co.uk/ were quite supportive.  Der Franzose were, in my experience, really good to deal with and very helpful when I wasn't exactly sure which bit I needed, prices were a little steep perhaps, but at least I felt like the people I was talking to actually knew their stuff and gave a crap, unlike my experiences with a certain British car specialist.

[Saabnut]

If you find an engine in or near 72 (Sarthe - LeMans) or on the route to Calais I am happy to collect and transport it on one of my trips. I have already done so for a friend who needed an early 205 suitcase gearbox.

[Parky]

A 1300 engine from a 5TS coupled with a French blue paint job with a couple of white stripes would create an interesting Gordini.

Personally I would go with option 3 here.  A rebuild will be a doddle on a C series engine but machining is never particularly cheap and the liners aren’t really supposed to pop out like that.  This dude has this for a massive seventy euros which has to be tempting and may fit:

https://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/1697517198.htm/

Or this may be more portable and almost half the price

https://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/1636097918.htm/

[somewhatfoolish]

On 10/29/2019 at 4:19 PM, Slowsilver said:

 

The next step will be to soak the two stuck pistons and liners in diesel for a week or so then try and bash the pistons out using brute force.
The big question now is where to go next.

 

Don't bother with diesel, it won't do owt with something that rusty; clean as much clag off with a wire brush as you can, degrease then submerge in vinegar, then give it an exploratory clout perhaps every 24 hours to check if it has loosened.

[jonathan_dyane]

I would replace the pistons and liners, fit new bearing shells but only regrind if really necessary and see how the head cleans up. Probably worth getting all the valve seats replaced; the bad ones look too manky to recut and it’s worth doing them all with new seats for unleaded and some fresh valves.

I would budget £500-£600 for both parts and machining.

[Tigerfox]

 If you can get the 2 pistons out of the liners and they are useable If it was mine I would go for a variation of option 1. Better the devil you know.

Replace the mains and big end shells and piston rings. Depending if the old liners are reuseable and the price/availabilty of new liners  and you would probably have a useable engine.

I doubt it  is going to do a great mileage, but I would fit a new oil pump if you can get one for piece of mind.

Worth having a look here https://www.franzose.de/en/Home/

[Slowsilver]

Bob is now reluctantly up for sale.
No ifs, buts or maybes.
He's got to go.
I have gone as far as I can with him and now he needs to go to someone who will save him.
Re-read this thread for all the gory details, but current state is:

New brake master cylinder, 4 wheel cylinders, flexible hoses and some metal pipes fitted, so footbrake and handbrake now work.
Engine and gearbox removed. Engine dismantled. 2 pistons seized into their liners. The rest of the engine (pistons, bores, big end and main bearing shells and crankshaft thrust washers all look still serviceable.

All other parts needed are either still on it or in it (I hope).
If the 2 pistons can be successfully freed from their liners without damage I think the engine could probably be rebuilt with just new seals and gaskets.
Otherwise it would need a new set of pistons and liners.
Or another second-hand engine could be sourced. These are the same as fitted to the Renault 4 (845cc) so are reasonably plentiful. Later versions were fitted with an 1117cc engine which is not a direct replacement. Apparently they rotate in the opposite direction for a start, which would give four reverse gears and one forward gear!
Comes with period roof rack and a box of new spares (Gasket sets, clutches, bearings, etc.).
I am not looking for a profit on this sale, I am more interested in it going to someone who will save it and put it back on the road, as it is quite a rare beast.
According to How Many Left there are only 25 R6s of all types (R6, R6L & R6TL) either taxed or on SORN. But of these only 4 are the early R6 model like this one and only 3 are taxed. Also the majority of these are left-hand drive models imported from France or Spain. Bob is an original, right-hand drive, UK-supplied model and I only know of one other early right-hand drive one that is currently on the road.
I have a V5 in my name but this is not the SORNed one as apparently, since it has been off the road since before SORN was introduced, I cannot SORN it until it has been taxed, despite  it having now had a change of ownership.
It currently owes me about £500 so I would like to recoup this amount if possible.
Obviously it would need to be moved on a trailer or a flatbed.

Here are some pictures of it in its present state:

The somewhat nose-up attitude is due to the engine now being in the back instead of the front. As you will see in previous photos on this thread it sits quite nicely when things are in the right place.

Large empty space under here:

But the bits to fill it are all in here.

[djoptix]

Phwoar. Want. 

[Tamworthbay]

What a bargain! I am sure someone will save it

[Zelandeth]

Can't see this hanging around at that price.  Good little project for someone with the time and kit to get it going.