Buying a Bus: Advice please

[Uncle Jimmy]

If I bought a bus I'd be after one of the old Benz models with the panoramic roof.

Keeping a bus out of the elements is the main issue really; that and the vast areas to attend to if you need to do bodywork or respray.

[83C]

I'll do a proper reply tomorrow with all the gory details, but for now:

 

Storage. The most important bit. If you've nowhere to park it don't buy one.

 

Take someone experienced with you to view any potential purchase. I'll happily come and view stuff in the south west.

 

Licence. Yes, you'll need to do your category 'D'. Everyone forgets the 'over 30 years, 8 seats or less' rule is also subject to weight limits.

[Cleon-Fonte]

For ease of ownership something van derived is probably best. For instance this Bedford CF with Plaxton Mini Supreme body which was on Gumtree recently (others used to come up frequently in bus classifieds a couple of years ago, not sure if that's still the case):

 

 

17 seats and up to 15-20mpg if you opt for a diesel.

 

Or a 16-seater Mellor-bodied Ford Transit. A few of these still do service as campervans.

 

[Eddie Honda]

Licence... You'll definitely need a licence obtaining as you passed post 1997.

Nope, whether or not the cat B licence was obtained before or after that date, if the bus is over 30 years old, driver over 21, max 8 passengers, non-commercial and providing it is a bus and not converted into something else, then a cat D isn't required.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/inf52-large-vehicles-you-can-drive-using-your-car-or-lorry-licence

 

Section 50(2) Part IV of the Traffic Act and regulations 54 to 57 shall not apply to a passenger-carrying vehicle manufactured more than 30 years before the date when it is driven and not used for hire or reward or for the carriage of more than eight passengers;

Tell me where the weight limits are for PCVs in that. There are none. If it is converted into something else and falls into a different licencing category, then weight limits kick in.

[rml2345]

^ Does make it rather difficult to go camping in.

I've no direct experience in owning large buses but know plenty who do and the biggest thing seems to be the cost of everything. Even basic stuff like engine oil has to be bought in obscene quantities to do a simple service and they drink like fish.

Generally speaking buses don't like standing or living outside for prolonged periods either and long spells of both can lead to serious problems later on, particularly with coaches as there's lots of hard to access frame that likes to rot out. If you've read all the advice and still fancy it, a Mercedes-Benz 709D with Alexander bodywork would be an ideal starting point. Those things are like cockroaches and are small enough to keep in a decent sized driveway. Good spares back up and an aluminium body also make them easier to own rather than trying to find kingpins for a Quest 80 or something.

Thread if you do it PLZ.

[rml2345]

That IVECO/Duple abortion can fuck right off.

[Eddie Honda]

^ Does make it rather difficult to go camping in.

 

Yes. Fanny around converting it and you can end up with goods vehicle. Which is fine...if you have the right licence.

 

Learn to sleep upright?

[BorniteIdentity]

Thanks for all the feedback.  I saw that Bedford thing on a Bus website and spaffed.  A Mercedes 709D would also meet with approval, but the Ford that looks like the bastard child of a mobile library and an ambulance can FRO.  

 

I think it's pretty obvious that a huge 58 seater is going to be out of the question, so something more suitably sized would be a better bet.  I had a Mercedes 609D camper off a mate back in 2008 and, whilst it was a brief tenure, enjoyed it very much.

[castros_bro]

 This was MOT'd, taxed, insured, structurally and mechanically sound pictured in a Kentish public car park 60 miles from where I lived waiting for a slightly dry warm day for painting then redoing the inside and refitting the back window as no other parking place else available. Finding somewhere to park in the UK was the biggest PITA (have I said that already?).   Note the Mitsubishi Colt Mirage turbo just sneaking into the picture.

 

 

[dollywobbler]

I reckon a big, boxy Volkswagen LT is what you actually need. They offer a proper truck/bus driving experience, with far fewer of the downsides. After driving Mat the Cat's, I reckon I could get on with one very nicely.

[Squire_Dawson]

Bedford OB.

 

There used to be loads of the Ford mini-buses in Halifax, I forget who the operator was.

[Captain Furious]

I would really love for someone else to own a big old coach so I could live the experience through their thread updates without any of the logistics to worry about.

 

Top work.

[Skizzer]

I'm just going to leave these here.

 

 

 

Monster Merc in the services carpark. Battered pressed steel plates too.

 

Seems cheap for a mobile maternity unit with half a dozen beds - provided you've got somewhere to keep it.

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C770621

[Supernaut]

Autoking of Autoshite!

[BorniteIdentity]

The STATE of that yellow thing.

(!!)

[Skizzer]

I really like the yellow thing.  But then I've always quite liked the idea of bolting half a Portakabin on to the back of an old Unimog and going on tour in it.

 

 

I'm also amazed nobody has scraped the A and the U off the AUTOKING sticker.  The local dubber stoner posse certainly would if you parked it in my street for more than ten minutes.

[Cavcraft]

Ive got a mate with a bus. He used to have a Bristol - this one in fact...

 

He wouldnt recommend it - they are a black hole for expense.

Oh, and ex-service ones are likely to be very rusty.

And they cost a lot to run.

Did I mention the expense?

A trip from Bristol to Cornwall and back cost the GDP of Yorkshire

Wasn't Doc restoring a bus or two? I remember the rot he was dealing with on one of them, looked an absolute bastard of a job.

[John F]

How about an old VW LT camper or perhaps a Commer PB?

 

It just so happens I'll be selling a 1988 LT 35 camper at some point in the not too distant future... shiter's discount will apply

[Guest Hooli]

A point no one seems to have mentioned yet is almost no service buses have fuel gauges. Fine in service as they work it out on mileage & they come in at set point during the day to fill up. Bit more interesting if on holiday.

 

Oh & buses are shit to drive, very slow & uncomfy. Coaches are a different kettle of fish.

[sierraman]

A point no one seems to have mentioned yet is almost no service buses have fuel gauges. Fine in service as they work it out on mileage & they come in at set point during the day to fill up. Bit more interesting if on holiday.

 

Oh & buses are shit to drive, very slow & uncomfy. Coaches are a different kettle of fish.

True, dip the ticket tape in the tank to see how much fuel you've got left.

[ShiteRider]

I've always fancied an ex mobile library. Tend to be relatively low mileage,clean (havn't had dozens of kids spitting, pissing, puking on them everyday for 20 years) and fairly cheap for what they are. Newer ones will usually come with w/c facilities and wheel chair ramps (handy if your into biking or similar).

I remember as nipper in the late 80's early 90's west lancs council still used a couple of bedford tk faced ones, which i think got replaced with leyland road runners.

[Sheefag]

Go and stay with these people instead....

 

http://www.majesticbus.co.uk/majestic-bus.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sierraman]

A lot of the mobile libraries are being decommissioned so you might get a bargain!

[Sheefag]

Fair play to you BorneIdentity,  You're either mad, or both.

[SiC]

What about a prison van too? Probably all high milers, so cheap, but just seem to always trundling up and down the motorway.

 

Would potentially have some history* to them too.

[Cavcraft]

Having been subjected to a rear compartment of a prison van and the driver's seat of a 609D, sometimes the former was preferable.

[sierraman]

I had a sit in the back of the local police meat van last week. Fortunately it was at the village fete, entrance was optional.

[83C]

Nope, whether or not the cat B licence was obtained before or after that date, if the bus is over 30 years old, driver over 21, max 8 passengers, non-commercial and providing it is a bus and not converted into something else, then a cat D isn't required.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/inf52-large-vehicles-you-can-drive-using-your-car-or-lorry-licence

 

 

Tell me where the weight limits are for PCVs in that. There are none. If it is converted into something else and falls into a different licencing category, then weight limits kick in.

That'll teach me for posting under the influence of strong painkillers whilst tired.

 

The licence and weights come into play if the vehicle isn't being used as a bus - a camper conversion such as what the OP is considering for example. However, you are right - if you intend to drive a bus and leave it a bus then the 30 year rule applies.

 

See the DVLA's booklet INF52 for more detail:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/inf52-large-vehicles-you-can-drive-using-your-car-or-lorry-licence

 

As for actually buying a bus....

 

1. I and others have said it before, but it's worth restating - make sure you've somewhere to park it.

2. Running costs - can be surprisingly cheap for some things, and surprisingly expensive for others.

a ). Insurance - probably one of the cheaper costs overall, I pay £250ish p/a including recovery.

b ). Tax - DVLA are currently of the opinion that a bus stays taxed as a bus unless it is converted to something else. It used to be that you could change the tax class to PLG if it wasn't used for revenue-earning purposes, but every time

I've spoken to DVLA recently they refuse to acknowledge this has ever happened. £340 a year for a full size single decker.

c ). Fuel - budget between 8-10mpg. Keep a broomstick to use as a dipstick if you can.

d ). Maintenance - everything is bigger and more expensive than on a car. You'll have at least two batteries to replace for example, the last alternator I bought (for a Leyland Lynx) was £230 (reconditioned), rear shock absorbers for the Tiger are £131 each.... Expensive.

e ). Tools - everything is bigger, and you'll need tools to match. Older buses can be a mix of AF, BSW, BSF and metric sizes.

3. Buying. What are you actually looking at? Many vehicles were built as a chassis and then bodied by a manufacturer of the operators choice. This means loads of different versions of the same machine, and also machines that look the same yet are totally different underneath. Several different engine, gearbox and axle combinations could be specced too, as well as different lengths and heights. Thus you could have a Leyland Olympian with an Alexander RL body, using a Gardner 6LXB engine coupled to a ZF gearbox and axle.

 

Generally, they can be categorised as such:

a ). Midi size single deck service buses - generally designed for around urban areas, max speed somewhere between 40 and 50mph. Can be fun to drive, can also be utterly tedious if it's a complete POS. Things like Dennis Darts, Dennis Lance, Volvo B6's, DAF SB120's, Leyland Nationals/Lynxes, etc. Probably the most common type of vehicle, Leyland vehicles are getting thin on the ground now.

b ). Double deck service buses - bit more of a mixed bag, lots of variety. Many bus bodied deckers could be specced as coaches, with engines and transmissions to suit. Olympians (both Leyland and Volvo) are probably the most common, Bristol VRs are less common. See also the Volvo D10M, Dennis Dominator & Arrow, MCW Metrobus, Dennis Trident, Scania N113, DAF DB250, etc. Non-DDA compliant vehicles will not be able to be used beyond the end of this year on registered service work, which means their values will fall further.

c ). Full size single deckers - Nowhere near as popular as they used to be, really they died out in the mid 90's when low floor buses became popular. Look at Leyland Tigers &

Leopards, Dennis Javelins, Volvo B10M's/B10B's, etc. Very cheap nowadays because of their limited potential for use.

d ). Coaches - the best for going any distance, designed to be comfortable, well insulated and quiet. Shares many of the same chassis as the full size buses, such as Leyland Tigers/Leopards, Volvo B10Ms, Dennis Javelins, and also

DAF SB3000, Scania K93/K114, etc.

e ). Minibuses - By far the cheapest option overall, though not the cheapest to buy. They're still sought after by operators for small contracts. Mercedes managed to shut almost all the competition out with the earlier 709D/811D chassis being followed by the ubiquitous Vario. The 'Breadvans' of the late 80's are largely gone now, they were mostly on Ford, Renault and Leyland DAF chassis. Some Optare Metroriders and Iveco based buses are also around, though not many.

 

I've not bothered listing stuff like Bristol REs, AEC Reliances or the various Bedfords because they're getting rather rare these days, and for the same reasons I haven't gone into the world of pre-1960's vehicles.

 

If you've got this far, well done! I know it seems a bit negative so far but stick with it. If you can find something in good condition that doesn't need huge amounts spending, look after it, be preventative with the maintenance and it should be fine.

[rml2345]

Pre 1960s would be a very brave choice but worth many many Autoshite points. Pre 1950s is for masochists.

[83C]

Part two. Actually buying a bus.

 

Once you've decided to go and look over a certain vehicle, there are a few things to consider. A lot is common to viewing a car, some things not so.

 

Approaching the vehicle (assuming it is parked on reasonably level ground), stop and take a good look at how the vehicle sits. If the vehicle has air suspension (90% of PSVs) it may well be sat lop-sided or down by the bow or stern. This isn't an immediate issue like it would be on many vehicles, however it may point to a levelling valve issue, perished air bag or other issue. Otherwise, take a good look around the vehicle but don't go too in depth yet. Check the fluids (engine oil, coolant), then start the vehicle. This is where having someone experienced with PSVs is really useful - most buses have different places for oil and coolant fillers, and different starting proceedures. They're all variations on a common theme, but it's knowing, for example, where to put the gear lever in a semi-auto Leyland Olympian to allow it to start.

 

Once the vehicle has started, switch on all lights (inside and out), and allow the air pressure to build. Most buses have two air circuits (two gauges or maybe a duplex gauge on the dash) many Leylands had three. Each should build to around 8 bar within 5-8 minutes. If any are below 6 bar a warning buzzer should sound as well as a lamp illuminating on the dash. Whilst the air is building, check the interior lights, seats for cuts and damage, and the emergency exit(s) open and close from the inside. Opening the emergency exits should also trigger another buzzer (and dashboard lamp if fitted). The cosmetics aren't really an issue unless loads of seats are damaged.

 

Once the air system is fully charged (i.e all air gauges showing equal pressure with no warning lamps or buzzers), go outside the vehicle. Check the vehicle is sat level, look at all the exterior lights (including marker lights on the top corners if fitted), and work around the vehicle checking tyres (cuts, splits and scuffing on the sidewalls, minimum 1mm tread depth across 3/4 of the tyre). It's worth mentioning that in many cases vehicles are sold without tyres included in the price, as many operators have a contract with a tyre firm to supply and maintain their tyres. Make sure a set of legal tyres is part of the deal. Check the engine - is the exhaust still smoking even when the engine has warmed up? Many older diesels will produce some white smoke when cold, usually nothing to worry about. If it's still doing so when warmed up there may be a head gasket issue. Also pull/push the emergency stop button (it should be marked with the correct directional instruction). Whilst outside check the emergency exits open and close where possible (the upstairs rear window on a decker isn't so-able without a ladder), and if all this checks out, look at a test drive. Move the bus from where it is and check where it was parked for fluid leaks.

 

On the test drive the vehicle should behave like any other - brakes work evenly and smoothly (if a retarder is fitted there should be quite a noticeable increase in brake force as it cuts in), accelerate and hold speed without hesitation or misfire. Check the exhaust as you are driving (if possible - many buses' exhausts are on the offside of the vehicle and are visible in the mirror) for smoke - some black smoke is ok, blue or white indicates problems. Thick clouds of black indicate fuel system issues. Steering will probably feel rather vague, and may have some play in it. Suspension rattles and knocks aren't the easiest to check for on a test drive as service buses especially have a habit of developing rattles in the bodywork with age. Again, this is where having someone experienced with you will help.

 

Once you're back at the sellers yard, check what is included in the deal - tyres (as previously mentioned), destination gear and seats are things the operator may wish to retain, and normally they will remove any ticket issuing equipment. When agreeing a price check whether it's including or excluding VAT. If it all checks out, insure it, tax it and drive it away!