PAS, ABS, ESP, do you need it?

[406V6]

ABS - yes please, good insurance if I need to brake hard

PAS - needed on any mid sized car. My old Allegro was fine without it but bigger cars are not driveable unless you have biceps like Charles Atlas

AC - yes, great safety aid against drowsiness and tiredness in summer and for demisting horrendously steamed up windows in winter.

ESP - maybe if I had a rear drive car

electric handbrake - stupid bollocks, totally unnecessary

Electric windows - when I could order a new car without them I did

[PhillipM]

Nope. None of it, even PAS - my 306 had extra castor, camber, wider track, wider tyres and a 2.2 turn quick rack and it was still fine without PAS.

But boy am I glad the rest of the braindead fuckwits on the road have ESP and ABS.

[martc]

It all started to go down hill when they put the spare wheel in the boot....

[wuvvum]

Personally I think the beginning of the end was when they started fitting brakes to all four wheels.  Decadence!

[gordonbennet]

A bit of theorising here, bear with me and tell me if i'm talking bollocks.

 

Cars without ABS.

often prone to locking the front wheels, balanced f/r no doubt for safety cos the last thing you want is a locked up arse sending you sideways, on my 70 series Landcruiser i adjusted the rear brake load sensing valve position to put a bit more pressure to the back brakes, it helped improve the brakes noticeably.

seen bloody hundreds of non abs cars in my years sliding with no noticeable deceleration with the two front wheels locked solid and the arse end seemingly doing bugger all...not helped no doubt by forward dive lifting the arse end lightening the load on the rear brake regulator, if fitted.

 

Cars with ABS

basically imbalance between the front and rears the same situation and above, BUT when ABS is triggered you can apply as much pressure as you want to the brake pedal...now would the rear brakes then be able to pressure right up to locking point thereby you have full rear brake effort that isn't usually possible with non ABS because without abs you would already have locked the fronts so will/should limit your pedal pressure to keep it from full lock up

 

Maybe i haven't explained that very well, but if you can make head or tail of it, am i on the right track or, as usual, talking bollocks.

 

Basically you should be able to extract more rear braking effort from an ABS equipped car than a non ABS??

 

Tell you summat, driving old school lorries with no abs and no load sensing valve on an empty trailer was a thrilling experience, remember all those smoking rear tyres years ago.

[Jikovron]

It could be a question of what timelines are, fate or an unwritten future?

 

ABS/ESR/BLUEMOTION/ESD/USB/SATA2 might save me a a rather foul crash someday, but instead I shall remain diligent and be extra careful to pre-empt as much as possible.

 

On that note however the triumph for instance wont idle once hot so just that would be nice a modern luxury on the stop start sections of the 32mile commute as currently its a case of braking,knocking it into neutral and hopping both feet over to left foot brake and keep the motor going so I don't have to restart it basically on roundabouts etc

 

as for PAS and such flim flam the wifeys alto has pas,,abs and things like that and typically the lights for a lot of that gear are lighting up the dash so hopefully it wont spiral into a full strip down resto type remedial job, But more a connection cleanup etc

[forddeliveryboy]

gordonbennet, if your 3rd para contains a question, then the answer would be yes. Haven't modern cars got another electronic circuit to work out if you're braking hard in a straight line or not, if you are then the rears are applied harder? It probably has one of the acro-things so we know* what it is.

 

Hydraulics CIts fed the rear braking circuit in direct proportion to the pressure in the rear suspension circuit, so that you always had the perfect load on the rear brakes - it made a huge difference. Braking hard from speed in a CX, you could induce the rear of the car to dip because of the soft springing by smoothly applying more braking pressure which would in turn increase the load on the rear brakes, making them do more work and so on until it felt as if the rears were braking as hard as the fronts, if there was any weight in the back. I think the discs were vented, too.

[gordonbennet]

gordonbennet, if your 3rd para contains a question, then the answer would be yes. Haven't modern cars got another electronic circuit to work out if you're braking hard in a straight line or not, if you are then the rears are applied harder? It probably has one of the acro-things so we know* what it is.

 

Hydraulics CIts fed the rear braking circuit in direct proportion to the pressure in the rear suspension circuit, so that you always had the perfect load on the rear brakes - it made a huge difference. Braking hard from speed in a CX, you could induce the rear of the car to dip because of the soft springing by smoothly applying more braking pressure which would in turn increase the load on the rear brakes, making them do more work and so on until it felt as if the rears were braking as hard as the fronts, if there was any weight in the back. I think the discs were vented, too.

 

Believe it or not i did get an English O level back in me distant mispent youth, now i reread me post its bloody gobbledegook but you seem to have sussed out what the F i'm on about, thankyou.

 

I wonder if our learning years of half knackered  drum braked old bangers on any old bloody tyre has given us a healthy respect for how little grip there really is on a wet road.

 

Compare to so many younger (and some older who should know better)drivers i see who belt up absolutely flat out to any junction/obstruction and hammer on the brakes a la Brands Hatch style at the very last minute.

We've got one or two at work, my lorry travelled the sum total of 76 kms one night couple of weeks ago, when i got to the motor in the morning the wheels (including the trailer which is on discs) were coated in enough brake dust for a 1000 mile mountain run, just how the fuck do they manage it.

 

I love the feeling of Citroen brakes, oddly enough my Landcruiser has vented rear discs too but can't imagine why.

 

edit, that rear dive of the Cit under braking you mention, ISTR the Landcrab's hydrolastics doing similar when braking hard.

[jonathan_dyane]

The modern driving style appears to be to charge up towards junction, brake heavily to stop then accelerate away at speed. What always gets me thought is the fact that people seem terrified to go round corners at any reasonable speed and also are completely unable to anticipate for example stopping at a junction or roandabout which is manifestly clear.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

I think you're right about us old farts having more awareness about poor grip etc, you only have to look at the number of 3 Series and C-Classes in ditches when it snows or the number of Boxsters and 911s that end up backwards through hedges when it's a bit damp. These Herbert's haven't experienced Morris Minors, Anglias, Escort Mk1/2, Marinas etc on crossplys/ bald 155s , they've passed their tests in nice little ABS equipped fwd hatches and progressed through nice safe Gols and Minis with ESP etc.

Until one day they're given a company 320d MSport, nobody thinks to explain about oversteer and for 95% of the time the electronic nanny keeps them on the road, they must literally shit themselves when they encounter that 5% situation ,because you can bet your life they're going a fair bit quicker than when the grip ran out of my 5.20 x13 Firestones on my Mk2 Cortina.

[Mr Lobster]

Need? I don't suppose many of them are needed but certainly in anything I'm using as a daily I'd much rather have ABS and A/C. 

 

I love that my R4 is so very basic and thats part of what makes it enjoyable but for daily stuff I'd prefer some modern bits and bobs just to make life easier.

[forddeliveryboy]

I wonder if the lack of road surface/grip awareness is anything to do with there being fewer young people starting off on motorbikes? The older I get, the more I'm aware of weight distribution in a car - something which I don't remember being in my teens and twenties.

 

jonathan-dyane, your remarks are typical of anyone who has ever made good use of a 2cv or similar! I remember back in the early 90s when I first drove through France, they wouldn't accelerate rapidly away from traffic lights, but they seemed to never stop accelerating. I did wonder at the time if this was anything to do with having learned to drive in 845cc R4s and 2cvs. French roads used to be wonderfully fast, nowadays they've the same roundabout-strewn ring-road mess which we have.

[captain_70s]

The modern driving style appears to be to charge up towards junction, brake heavily to stop then accelerate away at speed. What always gets me thought is the fact that people seem terrified to go round corners at any reasonable speed and also are completely unable to anticipate for example stopping at a junction or roandabout which is manifestly clear.

THIS.

 

When driving the Dolomites people would fly away from junctions like they were going for 1st place in the Grand Prix and stomp on the brakes last minute for the next junction. I'd always catch up on the twisties though, I annoyed many a yoof in a badly modified hatchback by being entirely in their way doing 48mph on the straights and then being right behind them again around the corners. Another thing was people hitting the brakes midway through a bend, this greatly irritated me as lifting off the throttle half way around a corner in a rwd car with a light arse is a recipe for disaster, namely a disaster where you go through a hedge sideways because the fucker in front is a moron. I learned to just keep a massive distance between me and the car in front...

 

I think it was a matter of planning, with an estimated 45(ish)bhp on offer I couldn't afford to lose speed, if the road ahead was uphill I could be stuck doing 40mph with my foot glued to the floor for miles if I came off the throttle for just a second. So I'd be approaching a corner and assess the situation far in advance, how's visibility? Any bad cambers? Anything behind me? Is it wet/muddy/covered in leaves? Can I take the racing line? By the time I got there I had my speed set and could power through making minor adjustments if needed, most people seem incapable of seeing anything more than 10ft in front of their car and react at the last minute.

 

I think driving such an old car has made me a far better driver over all. You can't afford to NOT plan ahead in a 1970s RWD car on skinny tyres with drum brakes because if you fuck something up the dynamics and design of the car will not help you and the lack of crash protection will see you going home in a jam jar. The only accidents I had in the Triumphs were at walking pace, mostly ,I suspect, because I didn't consider anything could go wrong at such low speeds and showed less concentration in the task at hand. A modern car does this all the time, you are made to feel so secure and isolated from your immediate environment outside the car you become disinterested and disengaged from driving.

 

I think everybody who is learning to drive should be given a spin (no pun intended) in something that can skid easily just to show how badly and how quickly things can go wrong. Quite a few people I know who have smashed up their motors are of the opinion "nothing could be done, these things happen". So misguided...

[forddeliveryboy]

When electronic control goes a little wrong -

 

[Slartibartfast]

My Tourneo is 5m long and weighs 3 tons but drives and handles very much like a car, and I drive it like one. One day, should a child or an elk run out in front of it and I have to swerve, I'm going to be very, very glad it has ESP.

[cort16]

They may have updated it but I though the tesla auto pilot was only for highway motorway driving.

[forddeliveryboy]

Think it's in beta mode, too. So it's to be expected. But I do think there's going to be an unnecessary reliance on electronics in years to come - little wonder people are suggesting computer network intelligence is going to overtake human intelligence, since our own brains will just go to sleep with everything done for them.

[Noel Tidybeard]

quick-clear windscreen nothankyouverymuch was driving the company focus tonite and was getting seriously f'cked off with the ziggy-zaggy distortions to everything

[vulgalour]

Normally I don't like driving aids but I am a motoring masochist.  I wish the Rover didn't have power steering, or that it was weighted a little heavier but by the same token I wish the Princess had power steering purely for parking because when driving it's actually really nice with the manual rack.  Electric windows in the front are great, nice to be able to use them comfortable while driving and ABS is a useful thing when faced with today's inconsiderate drivers.

 

There's a thing though, whenever I've found myself having to use a car's driving aids it's because someone else has decided my stopping distance should have a car in it, or they've pulled out in front of me, or another driver is somehow putting me in danger by their inconsiderate driving.  I don't know if this is because everyone else on the road is a moron (as I'm sure I'm viewed by other drivers) or just the fact that there's so many people on the roads now these incidents are just statistically more common.

 

Anyway, some driver aids are good.  Some are superfluous and if you rely on them you need to relearn how to drive and/or get manufacturers to design better, easier to drive cars.

[Pete-M]

I rate ABS. Yes, there are circumstances when it doesn't help but in the majority of situations when it kicks in it does. The emergency brake assist on Mercedes is another thing that I class as a good thing - I've only triggered it twice in my W210: once on the autobahn where it definitely saved me from a long train ride home and once when a HGV decided to reverse out onto a country lane without looking. If I'd been in a car without ABS I'd have probably hit that. The Mercedes stopped a lot more quickly that I thought it could. Lucky there wasn't anyone behind.

 

The Subaru has probably the best brakes of anything I've driven, it's hard to get the ABS to kick in on that.

[cros]

Think it's in beta mode, too. So it's to be expected. But I do think there's going to be an unnecessary reliance on electronics in years to come - little wonder people are suggesting computer network intelligence is going to overtake human intelligence, since our own brains will just go to sleep with everything done for them.

In reference to many drivers I reckon you're using the wrong tense here...

[wuvvum]

quick-clear windscreen nothankyouverymuch was driving the company focus tonite and was getting seriously f'cked off with the ziggy-zaggy distortions to everything

Having been using a Quickclear-equipped Mondeo as a daily for the last ten months, you do get used to the little lines after a while and learn to focus past them, although they do result in a little bit of distortion of oncoming headlights (and for some reason my phone camera refuses to look past them).  They more than make up for it when I'm late for work on a frosty morning though - get in the car, start engine, front and rear screen heaters on and I'm ready to go in about 30 seconds, rather than pissing about with deicer and scrapers for five minutes.

[Taff]

I think you're right about us old farts having more awareness about poor grip etc, you only have to look at the number of 3 Series and C-Classes in ditches when it snows or the number of Boxsters and 911s that end up backwards through hedges when it's a bit damp. These Herbert's haven't experienced Morris Minors, Anglias, Escort Mk1/2, Marinas etc on crossplys/ bald 155s , they've passed their tests in nice little ABS equipped fwd hatches and progressed through nice safe Gols and Minis with ESP etc.

Until one day they're given a company 320d MSport, nobody thinks to explain about oversteer and for 95% of the time the electronic nanny keeps them on the road, they must literally shit themselves when they encounter that 5% situation ,because you can bet your life they're going a fair bit quicker than when the grip ran out of my 5.20 x13 Firestones on my Mk2 Cortina.

 

Ive been saying for years that everyone should be made to take their driving test in a split-screen Minor with crossplies and drum brakes.

That's real driving for you

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Having been using a Quickclear-equipped Mondeo as a daily for the last ten months, you do get used to the little lines after a while and learn to focus past them, although they do result in a little bit of distortion of oncoming headlights (and for some reason my phone camera refuses to look past them).  They more than make up for it when I'm late for work on a frosty morning though - get in the car, start engine, front and rear screen heaters on and I'm ready to go in about 30 seconds, rather than pissing about with deicer and scrapers for five minutes.

That's if you don't forget it's got one , like if your Mrs has a Freelander and you think she'll be grateful you've scraped the screen and she just takes the piss out of you for instance. Guess how I know,etc

[Craig the Princess]

Need it? No, but as most have said things like abs cab get you out of trouble.

 

Does the average driver need the extras to control a 300 bhp rwd saloon on a damp autumn road? Probably yes.

 

It all went wrong with the electric start replacing the crank handle.

 

It does piss me off when things like manual door locked are deleted on central locking cars (facelifted Rover R8s passenger doors I'm looking at you) as there is no easy work round when it fails.

[Noel Tidybeard]

Having been using a Quickclear-equipped Mondeo as a daily for the last ten months, you do get used to the little lines after a while and learn to focus past them, although they do result in a little bit of distortion of oncoming headlights (and for some reason my phone camera refuses to look past them).  They more than make up for it when I'm late for work on a frosty morning though - get in the car, start engine, front and rear screen heaters on and I'm ready to go in about 30 seconds, rather than pissing about with deicer and scrapers for five minutes.

yes but the 1.8 civic warms up quick enough that by the time yoi've been round the rest of the windows the heater is already showing warmth

[PhillipM]

A bit of theorising here, bear with me and tell me if i'm talking bollocks.or, as usual, talking bollocks.

 

Basically you should be able to extract more rear braking effort from an ABS equipped car than a non ABS??

 

If it has individual ABS channels, many earlier and/or cheaper systems didn't. And generally unless it has some form of ESP to monitor the dynamics it'll still err towards front bias in case you make any sudden steering corrections, as there's a time lag in the ABS response.

[warren t claim]

This is Autoshite where having ABS and traction control usually means having warped discs and a slipping clutch.

[dollywobbler]

I rate ABS. Yes, there are circumstances when it doesn't help but in the majority of situations when it kicks in it does. The emergency brake assist on Mercedes is another thing that I class as a good thing - I've only triggered it twice in my W210: once on the autobahn where it definitely saved me from a long train ride home and once when a HGV decided to reverse out onto a country lane without looking. If I'd been in a car without ABS I'd have probably hit that. The Mercedes stopped a lot more quickly that I thought it could. Lucky there wasn't anyone behind.

 

The Subaru has probably the best brakes of anything I've driven, it's hard to get the ABS to kick in on that.

 

That's the next problem isn't it? Superb brakes that catch out the car behind you. As happened to me in my 2CV eight years ago. I did a perfect emergency stop after getting cut up by a truck on a roundabout. The Mondeo behind just ploughed straight into  me. (two lane roundabout by the way, so the truck had no justification at all in turning right from the left-hand lane. No, he didn't stop, even though I hit him!).

[Parky]

I personally like pas and abs, unsure about the benefits of traction control. My daily has it and I generally switch it off as I prefer to judge conditions myself. When I have left it on I find it hopeless. That said have never triggered abs in normal driving but like the fact it is there. Hopefully it still works!

 

Finnish taxi drivers know a thing or two about icy and slippery conditions and the ones I have used prefer to do without it as otherwise the car sits at lights bogging down and progress is slow. Those boys can drive though! Only place I have ever been where I left the airport in a Mercedes estate which immediately executed a perfect drift around a long curve! Traction control and stability wouldn't allow them to have their fun so they get thumbs down from me