205: a mechanical idiot enquires...

[chaseracer]

The little Pug's brakes are OK but not brilliant; perfectly safe, but lacking 'bite' (best way I can think of to describe it).  It had new discs/pads just before I bought it, but the quality is unknown.

 

Try better pads?  Bigger/vented discs?  Full GTi spec, with rear discs? 

 

All suggestions/experiences/verbal abuse gratefully received...

[KruJoe]

First question: What were you driving before you jumped in the 205?

[xtriple]

Does it have a servo?

[skattrd]

Better tyres?

 

If you do upgrade the brakes I wouldn't bother upgrading rear brakes as drums are fine.

[chaseracer]

First question: What were you driving before you jumped in the 205?

 

Blingo: similar disc/drum setup.  I find the 205 fine, but Domestic Management is used to an all-disc C3.  Apples and oranges, I admit, but I would like her to use the 205 more and - to be fair - so would she, but she's not confident with the brakes currently.

 

 

Does it have a servo?

AFAIK, yes; it's a 1995 N/A diesel.

 

 

Better tyres?

 

If you do upgrade the brakes I wouldn't bother upgrading rear brakes as drums are fine.

New 165/70x14 Barums. With you on the rear brakes.

[skattrd]

When upgrading brakes I generally don't bother with discs, pads make most difference.

 

The pads aren't glazed are they?

[jonathan_dyane]

They all do that sir. The crossbar which takes the pedal movement across to the passenger side mounted master cylinder doesn't help matters. It is possible to upgrade to bigger vented discs and larger calipers if you feel the need however I'd try decent top quality pads first.

[The Moog]

When was fluid changed? New juice can improve feel because it makes it more crisp

[KruJoe]

[she] is used to an all-disc C3

I've recently driven a C2 and a DS3, and they both had mega-sharp brakes. On returning to my (all disc) 216, I thought there was something wrong with it. But it's fine, and stops really well, it just needs a shove.

I reckon, however much time and money you spend on the 205, the brakes will still feel feeble after jumping out of a modern (or some older) Citroen(s).

 

You said you "find the 205 fine and perfectly safe", so there's probably nowt wrong with it, she'll just have to get used to it, or stick with her modern.

Or get her into a BX.

[skattrd]

Good point on the fluid Moog, brake fluid should be changed every 2yrs iirc.

 

I think Joe might have hit the nail on the head though, some cars just have more progressive braking than others. Moderns quite often have very sharp brakes that are on or off and if that's what she's after then it'll never happen on the 205.

[Mrcarlos]

Is the vac pump powering the servo up properly ?

[Mrcarlos]

Also setting up the rear drums properly can make a big difference to the pedal feel on a 205

[Parky]

When was fluid changed? New juice can improve feel because it makes it more crisp

I would look at this first - if the pedal is spongey I would check the last time the fluid was done. If there is no evidence, assume its been in there since 1998 and change ASAP.

[Station]

Created new pipes for the Micra and the fluid was black. Once bled through, the brakes nearly sent me hurtling through the windscreen and onto the bonnet.

I'd say the fluid needs bleeding properly, if it's lacking bite or is spongey it'll be that.

[chaseracer]

Cheers, friends 

[Inspector Morose]

Start with the basics, pads - check for glazing. Rear brakes adjusted properly? (Then again I'd probably expect a long pedal travel to show up badly or non adjusting rear brakes) Then move to fluid. A good flush through can work wonders. Wooden feel to the brakes? Check the vacuum pump and associated hoses for a good suck. Other than that they are on an older car so you can't really expect miracles but they should stop well though. My bet is glazed/cheap pads/discs.

[mat_the_cat]

Start with the basics

 

Agreed...put your foot on the brakes with the engine off and does it go down when you start it? Check the free 'n easy things first A 205 shouldn't need uprated brakes to exceed the limit of the tyres, so IMO it's just a case of fixing rather than upgrading.

[2MB]

I've always found 205s to feel a bit lacking in bite compared to more assisted cars. It doesn't sound like there's owt wrong with it though, they just need more of a shove than most. Drive it back to back with an 80s Volkswagen if you can, if the vw feels sharper then the pug is fucked and needs a looking at

[castros_bro]

Blaggg a go in a couple of other Puglette 205 N/A diesel for a brake quality comparason test, it'll show if your's is normal shite or subprime shite..

[Bren]

Possibly a characteristic of the car - my other halfs fiesta has brakes that seem barely adequate yet pass the MOT.

[New POD]

THE PROBLEM with comparing older cars with Modern cars with ABS is that they don't need to be progressive, and can have MORE brake than you need, because they won't ever lock up. So they feel, better.

 

There are 2 options.

 

1) Fit a NEW servo, new fluid and genuine discs and pads. (Servo's do degrade)

2) Upgrade to GTi spec

 

 

I fitted mk3 cavalier gsi front brakes to 3 different mk2 cavaliers, always with genuine GM pads and discs, and the difference was amazing.  They lacked fade, and were more progressive.

[explosive-cabbage]

I've had this problem before and after fully rebuilding the brakes sytsem (new lines, re-built calipers, re-built master cylinder, new pads etc) they are much better - it is not neccesary to spend loads of money to get them right though - as people say it is likely a simple fix.

 

To start - try pulling up the handbrake 2 clicks then driving - are the brakes any better? If so it is the rear brakes that need adjusting up. If doing this I would reccomend removing the automatic adjustment system in the drums (a little bracket that ratchets on a cog nut that seperates the pads) This system is useless at the best of times and very unreliable. Rub the inside of the drum down with sandpaper to clean any imperfections off it, and replace the pads. Clean everything in the rear drums with brake cleaner, and when putting the drums back on adjust the little cog nut up so the shoes are spread as far as they can be apart before they prevent the drums from spinning freely.

Putting more powerful discs on the back is a no-no, regardless of what they say in forums. Having the rear end lock up before the front is BAD NEWS and can spin you round in an instant. The perfect set-up would have the front lock up just before the rears - this means at least you are going to keep in a straight line when you slam on the brakes in the wet.

 

Next, change the fluid. Easy to do, in this order - N/S REAR, O/S REAR, N/S FRONT, O/S FRONT. No need to use the two-person method, just pump it through with the pedal. They do not tend to suck air back in if you use a short peice of rubber pipe attached to the nipple, and take your time. Don't be afraid of wasting fluid - push a couple litres through the system to make sure it is completely clear. Buy brand new fluid, DOT 4 is good enough, dont bother with DOT 5. Do each caliper at least twice in order and a few light taps on the front calipers with a hammer helps bring small bubbles up the the nipples. Keep an eye on the fluid resevoir and top it up between each caliper or you will have to start again!

 

Next, check the pipe between the vacuum pump and the servo. Take the pipe off and with the engine running you should feel a good suction when you put your finger over the vacuum outlet on the pump. PM me if you need a replacement. That manky cotton-covered pipe tends to crack at the ends after 20 years coated in oil. Luckily I have plenty of spares but I think you should be able to get cheap vacuum pipe on ebay, and use good new jubilee clips. If the plastic connection into the servo is lose or turns very freely this could be the problem. I'm not sure how to sort this - possibly pulling it out and gunking up the grommit with thick grease may prevent small leaks? Check the tension of the vacuum belt on the pullley.

 

The diesels and the TDs have different front brake calipers as standard - the vented ones are better but you will have to change the calipers - a straight swap. I have spares of both types of discs if you need. I did buy some good* quality chinese grooved, vented and drilled discs for my 205 TD re-build on eBay for £26 BIN a few months ago, not sure if they are still up fro sale, I would massively reccomend them. Good pads make all the difference - and so do new discs.

Drive carefully on new brake pads for a couple hundred miles - they need time to wear in.  It is cheaper to replace the discs and pads than pay for a rear-end repair on a modern when you smash into them!

 

If there is still a lot of movement after doing these things it is likely to be the servo. I have a spare I think - for a 1.4 XT, you'll have to check if it is the same, though I wouldnt bother, it is easy to live with and get used to a little bit of pedal travel.

 

The brakes will never be as good on a 205 as they are on a modern - but they can be good enough if you are prepared to fiddle.

 

Good luck!

[jonathan_dyane]

Ultimately though whatever you do the brakes will always have that wooden feeling because of the flex in the crosstube.

[Partridge]

when was the fluid last changed? what colour is it?

[twosmoke300]

Mr cabbage is on the right lines .

 

One thing to check on an old car with unknown history is that all the bleed nipples are above the pipe in . Ie at the top of the caliper / wheel cylinder . I've seen people put calipers / cylinders on the wrong sides and end up with the bleeder at the bottom . You will never get all the air out.

[PiperCub]

As Cabbageman said. Check the whole system out end to end. Rear drums will be fine as stock as they do little work unless you always drive loaded up to the hilt. Ensure they are not seized or leaking. The calipers need cleaning and checking they aren't seized/partially seized, then change the fluid, few bother ever doing this & it can make all the difference.

If you still think it's 'lacking' then the upgrades would be, 1) Decent quality front pads (& discs if worn) 2) Goodridge hose replacing the rubber flexi's. You could go the GTi route but it's not going to make it much better I reckon.

 

FWIT: I've had a diesel 205 like yours (300K miles) and thought the brakes were fine. I own a 205GTi 1.6 and with the above done and the mods (EBC Green stuff pads and decent discs), the car has excelent brakes even compared with moderns.

Also, don't recall my diesel having a LHS master cylinder (but it was a good few years back now), the GTi has one on the right so doesn't suffer any linkage/wear issues so that would help.

[Timewaster]

205 rear adjusters are made literally from tin foil. Give then a Look.