Bus Shite

[danthecapriman]

52 minutes ago, Yoss said:

I suspect a Routemaster is actually more advanced to drive than most contemporary rear engined buses. I'm sure most early Atlanteans and Fleetlines didn't have power steering, no doubt being considered unnecessary with all the weight being at the back. 

As well as the power steering RMs were also semi automatic. As built you could put them in fourth gear and they would be fully automatic but the smoothest way to drive was as a semi auto. In which case you just put them in whatever gear you want, when you want it just backing off the throttle as you did so, just as you would if there was a clutch, except there wasn't one, it just had the two pedals. 

The gear selector was mounted on the left hand side of the steering column. It was in fact just a giant electrical switch, all the actual gear changing went on behind you. But it was both sprung and damped so it had the feel of something far more mechanical than it actually was. 

They also had decent cab heaters and a fully opening windscreen for ventilation on hot days which none of those other half cabs posted above had let alone the one man buses. 

So a Routemaster is much easier to drive than most provincial buses but as mentioned above most drivers would prefer any half cab as that big noisy engine is much better company than the general public. 

If it was an AEC engined RM I’d gladly listen to it all day! Musical engine! Much like a Detroit diesel.

[High Jetter]

1 hour ago, Yoss said:

The gear selector was mounted on the left hand side of the steering column

Really? My memory is on the right, but I was a kid 😀

[Yoss]

7 hours ago, danthecapriman said:

If it was an AEC engined RM I’d gladly listen to it all day! Musical engine! Much like a Detroit diesel.

I have owned both AEC and Leyland. The AEC is the better engine particularly inside the cab, but as an enthusiast the Leyland sounded better as you could hear it coming several minutes before it arrived. 

6 hours ago, High Jetter said:

Really? My memory is on the right, but I was a kid 😀

Nope, definitely the left. It's your childhood memory is playing tricks on you. 

5 hours ago, 83C said:

 

Of the 4 I’ve driven the AEC lumps in RM 1783 & RMA 11 sounded good, but the best one for noise was RM 1062 - fitted with a virtually unsilenced Scania lump which gave a properly throaty bellow. Used to be good for coasting down Station Road & Richmond Hill in Truro in 3rd, seeing how many car alarms I could set off with it. 

I remember RM 1062 when it was still at New Cross on the 36. It had a totally different sound to all the other Scania and was the closest thing there was to a proper Leyland. 

Had a good run on it on the last night of the 36 whilst everybody else was on RM9 on the official last bus. 

[SunnySouth]

6 hours ago, 83C said:

Been trying to remember which was the worst of the lot for cab space out of all the buses I’ve driven, and it’s this:

K98 XNY, Stagecoach West 32998. It’s a Dart with Wrong HandyBus bodywork, and it was the only bus in the fleet I couldn’t drive. The shorter HandyBuses in the fleet (NDZ 3*** regs) were ok-ish, but to squeeze the maximum number of seats in the driver’s rear bulkhead in this one was a good 6” closer to the dash. The only time I tried to drive it I had to stand with my left foot on the saloon floor and my right foot heel and toeing the brake and accelerator because of the total lack of space between the dash and the back of the seat. 

Drove one of these fuckers once, Northern Counties Paladin bodied Dart. Similarly comedic lack of any sort of room in the cab and I’m not overly lanky. Feck knows how a leggy bloke would have managed if that was the daily steed. I note there’s a child in the seat in this pic, he would have been about the ideal size from my memory!

[LightBulbFun]

14 hours ago, Yoss said:

I suspect a Routemaster is actually more advanced to drive than most contemporary rear engined buses.

@dollywobbler did some awesome videos recently where he drove a couple Leyland Atlanteans (a 1958 and a 1984) and then a 1958 Leyland PD2, and in those he was talking about how much of a revolution the Atlantean was and how much nicer/easier it was to drive, and that no wonder the half cab went away, and sure that would be the case if you do compare with the PD2

but I feel like the Routemaster should of been mentioned or also driven back to back, as the Routemaster was very much as I understand the swan-song for the Half cab, better as you say then many of the early rear engined buses, for the Routemaster was fully Automatic with power steering etc etc!

14 hours ago, Yoss said:

In which case you just put them in whatever gear you want, when you want it just backing off the throttle as you did so, just as you would if there was a clutch, except there wasn't one, it just had the two pedals. 

are you meant to lift off the throttle when changing gears in a Routemaster? I was under the impression it could tolerate/was designed for on-power throttle gear changes? and that that is one of the reasons the DMS (Fleetline) blew up in London because its epicyclic gearbox was not designed for on-power-gear changes, but London bus drivers drove it like an RT or RM anyway!

but perhaps I am mistaken! after all your the one who has owned one and experienced one, I am just a massive enthusiast of the type  who has sadly never got the chance to own or drive one!

[danthecapriman]

26 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

@dollywobbler did some awesome videos recently where he drove a couple Leyland Atlanteans (a 1958 and a 1984) and then a 1958 Leyland PD2, and in those he was talking about how much of a revolution the Atlantean was and how much nicer/easier it was to drive, and that no wonder the half cab went away, and sure that would be the case if you do compare with the PD2

but I feel like the Routemaster should of been mentioned or also driven back to back, as the Routemaster was very much as I understand the swan-song for the Half cab, better as you say then many of the early rear engined buses, for the Routemaster was fully Automatic with power steering etc etc!

are you meant to lift off the throttle when changing gears in a Routemaster? I was under the impression it could tolerate/was designed for on-power throttle gear changes? and that that is one of the reasons the DMS (Fleetline) blew up in London because its epicyclic gearbox was not designed for on-power-gear changes, but London bus drivers drove it like an RT or RM anyway!

but perhaps I am mistaken! after all your the one who has owned one and experienced one, I am just a massive enthusiast of the type  who has sadly never got the chance to own or drive one!

Can you remember the Routemaster in service @LightBulbFun ? I’m not sure how old you are, but being a Londoner and all.

I can remember them from my family trips through London. We didn’t have a family car in the 80’s and very early 90’s so had to rely on the train to visit family in Yorkshire. Being on the south coast we got the train into Waterloo then bus or cab to Kings Cross for the train up the ECML to Doncaster. 
Back home we had the Leyland Atlantean, Bristol VR and Leyland National as the most common bus so seeing the Routemaster still in use was always a real sight for me. I used to love the black cabs too, FX4’s everywhere with just the odd Metrocab coming in. Non of that foreign junk they have now. Stuff like that made London in my eyes. It’s lost a lot of charm and character now it’s all gone. It’s just like any other big city now.

The trains were the biggest deal for me though as a kid! Old Network SouthEast slam door units to Waterloo then a 125 or 225 up the ECML. You’d always start seeing more interesting things as you closed in on London though. Class 33’s and 73’s were favourites as I never saw them back around home. 
Obviously it stepped up again as we got to Doncaster with all the freight!

Up in Donny they had the yellow Mainline buses of various types, and there were also the blue Leon Motors buses which were always nice looking elderly buses. When we got off the train at Doncaster station and crossed town I’d spend as long as possible watching the buses coming and going from the big town centre bus garage. 
Everywhere seemed to have a different ‘vibe’ going on with its buses and trains - different vehicles in different livery’s. Something else that’s now largely gone! 
 

[LightBulbFun]

37 minutes ago, danthecapriman said:

Can you remember the Routemaster in service @LightBulbFun ? I’m not sure how old you are, but being a Londoner and all.

yes quite well  RML's on the 38 and 73 to be specific, the 38 we used to go on quite regularly to visit a family friend, and the 73 for getting into/about Central London  and I was quite upset when they where withdrawn! (and then quite elated to find out about the now sadly withdrawn themselves, heritage Route 9 and 15, tho I never rode on the 9, but I became quite well known on the 15! tho I always tried to find RML2760 if I could because it was the most original, being the one of the very few RML's to *not* be referbished/re-engined in the 1990's, so it still had its original AEC engine, seat fabric, and most importantly to me as a lighting enthusiast, its original 22W 50mm bespoke for London Transport incandescent saloon lighting bulbs ) 

the RM's otherwise on the heritage routes where early 2000's Marshall referbs aka Dartmasters because they had the running gear from Dennis Dart's installed and horrible looking hopper windows in place of the winding windows, *shudder* but I never did find RML2760 with my preferred crew of Mandy the driver and big paul the conductor, I wonder where they are now! I hope they are well! so I sadly never got a chance to ride RML2760 back to the Garage (Bow then West-ham) as I did with the other RM's

I dont know if @Yoss has any of his RMOOA magazines still from about 2008-2009?, but theres a picture of me as an 8-9 year old standing in front of ER882 (the Routemaster of my profile picture) in one of the issues, as I was the RMOOA's youngest member at the time! (my mum has always been very supportive of my hobbies/interests  )

[Yoss]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

I dont know if @Yoss has any of his RMOOA magazines still from about 2008-2009?, but theres a picture of me as an 8-9 year old standing in front of ER882 (the Routemaster of my profile picture) in one of the issues, as I was the RMOOA's youngest member at the time! (my mum has always been very supportive of my hobbies/interests  )

No sorry Dez I haven't kept them. Had I known the path my life would take I would have kept them just so I could reproduce that picture now as I'm sure we'd all appreciate it! 

Back to your previous post about driving them, yes you could keep your foot down through gear changes but for the smoothest ride you would lift off in between. Particularly in fully auto mode you could just keep your foot down as the changes were quicker. Doing it manually I always paused for half a second in neutral whilst going between gears. 

RM2037 hasn't had a fully auto box since 1989 when the SSG (speed sense generator) broke and my friend Ernie had to drive the eight miles back to where we kept it in second gear! A tooth came off the cog on the SSG and as it wasn't turning it assumed we were doing zero mph so wouldn't change up. The owners club did a special plug for the box of wires in the cab that controlled it all that by passed the SSG and converted the bus to a proper semi auto. The fourth gear was now just fourth gear, there is no longer any fully auto. 

The chap I sold it to used to be driver at Brixton and he would never dream of using auto anyway. 

[High Jetter]

5 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I dont know if @Yoss has any of his RMOOA magazines still from about 2008-2009?, but theres a picture of me as an 8-9 year old standing in front of ER882 (the Routemaster of my profile picture) in one of the issues, as I was the RMOOA's youngest member at the time!

Did you not get a copy of that if you were a member at the time? Would be great to see that pic, and history for you.

[Inspector Morose]

23 hours ago, 83C said:

All of my half cab experience is with RMs, I'm tall and fat and I managed to get in them ok. They're actually alright for space once inside, I've driven normal buses with less space - early Darts could be absolutely awful for legroom. 

Half cabs are fine to get in and drive. Depending on the operator, you might even have the benefit of a sliding cab door that you could leave open on hot days.

For complete lack of room, there is only one champion - the Wulfrunian. I've had the pleasure* of some seriously long drives on that and it's an interesting but no pleasurable thing to drive. 

The main issue was that to get a decent sized platform at the front, the big boat anchor of a Gardner was moved away from the centre line towards the offside, you know, where the driver sits. So much is it shifted, the steering box and column was not able to be mounted vertically, it being tilted to the offside too. So, a ten hour shift with a red hot and noisy Gardner pressed against your left leg, slowly turning it to corned beef. No room for any meaningful sound or heat deadening so you're a slowly baked and deafened. Meanwhile your driving position is permanently tilted to the offside as the steering wheel is not in line with the seat and tilted to the right. To get in the thing, the cab door is tiny and when you've squeezed through that, you've a handbrake to negotiate around before installing yourself. 

Steering was insanely heavy and the piece of resistance was that the main pipes for the cave-brown-cave heating system (no room for a normal radiator) ran up the offside windscreen pillar. If they sprung a leak, you are deafened, boiled, tilted and with scalding hot water pissing on you from the front. 

I have no idea what they were withdrawn so early in their careers (actually, the same day as the last day of Bradford trolleybuses).

[busmansholiday]

Routemasters were the only half cabs with a lefthand handbrake, everything else you had to climb past / trip over getting in as there was usually a bfo gear lever on your left.

Nothing better than a shift working and FLF one man, especially when there was a solid piece of glass between the cab and the lower deck. Having to jump out at stops, grab the ticket machine and cash bag and run around to collect fares was an excellent* way of keeping fit.

[Inspector Morose]

1 hour ago, 83C said:

I never tried to find out if the RMs I drove were still capable of full auto operation, I’m always much happier using the gears properly. Can’t stand watching people who don’t know how (or don’t care) driving semi-autos, never lifting off and slamming though gears. Fast way of breaking things (VR mitre boxes for example) and it gives a shit ride with all the passengers nodding their heads each gear change. 

I’m sure I’ve shared this video before, it’s of Leyland Tiger 1725 (TL11/5sp semi auto) being driven back to where it was stored in Devon:

I miss owning a bus, but my bank balance doesn’t!

It depends if you've set up the pressures and restrictors in the box yourself (pneumocyclic, obviously). You can get some quite fine control on how the bands engage and if you can get it just right, lightning snap changes are a wonderful thing.

Sadly, it seems it is a lost art to set up a box well (it wasn't that common in the past TBH) and so most rallies and running days are accompanied by the slipping of gearbox bands and clunk of banging gears engaging (WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE MITRE BOXES?)

Theres only one group who I know how to set up a pneumocyclic properly. And drive them accordingly!

[dollywobbler]

As LBF mentions, I recently drove a 1958 Leyland PD2 back to back with a 1958 Leyland Atlantean and by golly, I think I'd take the passengers!

Worlds apart to drive. The PD2 still had synchro on only the top two gears of its fully manual transmission and the steering, unassisted on both, is way heavier due to the mechanical units being up close with you. And that's unladen. After about 20 minutes in the PD2 I was glad to get out again. 

That said, a Routemaster is an absolute doddle to drive. They're so much lighter, the gearchange is so much easier and while the engine is loud, it isn't terribly so. On the rear engined buses, it seems engine noise is replaced by the fact that almost everything seems to rattle around you now you're part of the big open box.

[Inspector Morose]

17 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

As LBF mentions, I recently drove a 1958 Leyland PD2 back to back with a 1958 Leyland Atlantean and by golly, I think I'd take the passengers!

Worlds apart to drive. The PD2 still had synchro on only the top two gears of its fully manual transmission and the steering, unassisted on both, is way heavier due to the mechanical units being up close with you. And that's unladen. After about 20 minutes in the PD2 I was glad to get out again. 

Speaking as a conneaseur of driving every type of bus I could lay my mitts on, I would suggest seeing if you can get a drive of an AEC regent V.  Worlds apart from a PD2, full synchro on all gears, the steering is lower geared and lighter and a much nicer thing to drive ( this is from a confirmed Leyland fan). The AEC almost feels sporty!

Lodekkas are a weird thing. To get the cab lower, the steering column is tilted back, giving it a bit of "driving from an armchair" feel to it and they have a trick of trapping your knees under the steering wheel. Avoid a five speed on as it will embarrass you in short measure! The first four speeds are where you'd think they are (conventional H patten). To get fifth you go down past fourth, across to the right then back up again to select fifth (a bit like a hidden, secret gear). Going up is usually fine but the fun comes when it's time to come back down. Miss the change from fifth to fourth and there's nothing you can do but stop, wrestle the lever back out and back into the conventional H part to select first then set off again. That box has brought many seasoned drivers to their knees in frustration, almost as evil as a five speed manual RE.

[busmansholiday]

24 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

Speaking as a conneaseur of driving every type of bus I could lay my mitts on, I would suggest seeing if you can get a drive of an AEC regent V.  Worlds apart from a PD2, full synchro on all gears, the steering is lower geared and lighter and a much nicer thing to drive ( this is from a confirmed Leyland fan). The AEC almost feels sporty!

Lodekkas are a weird thing. To get the cab lower, the steering column is tilted back, giving it a bit of "driving from an armchair" feel to it and they have a trick of trapping your knees under the steering wheel. Avoid a five speed on as it will embarrass you in short measure! The first four speeds are where you'd think they are (conventional H patten). To get fifth you go down past fourth, across to the right then back up again to select fifth (a bit like a hidden, secret gear). Going up is usually fine but the fun comes when it's time to come back down. Miss the change from fifth to fourth and there's nothing you can do but stop, wrestle the lever back out and back into the conventional H part to select first then set off again. That box has brought many seasoned drivers to their knees in frustration, almost as evil as a five speed manual RE.

Regents were far easier to drive than Titans and the engines always seemed to pick up quicker than the 0.600.

As for Bristol's lovely* 5 speed box, I've had the pleasure* of an old ECW bodied RE as well as Lodekkas. The 5th down to 4th change was something you concentrated on, there's been many an unfortunate driver forgotten to change down approaching slow traffic with those problems IF it decided to play ball.

[Inspector Morose]

1 hour ago, busmansholiday said:

 there's been many an unfortunate driver forgotten to change down approaching slow traffic with those problems IF it decided to play ball.

Sonata in several movements by unaccompanied gearbox.

[Zelandeth]

2 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

Speaking as a conneaseur of driving every type of bus I could lay my mitts on, I would suggest seeing if you can get a drive of an AEC regent V.  Worlds apart from a PD2, full synchro on all gears, the steering is lower geared and lighter and a much nicer thing to drive ( this is from a confirmed Leyland fan). The AEC almost feels sporty!

Lodekkas are a weird thing. To get the cab lower, the steering column is tilted back, giving it a bit of "driving from an armchair" feel to it and they have a trick of trapping your knees under the steering wheel. Avoid a five speed on as it will embarrass you in short measure! The first four speeds are where you'd think they are (conventional H patten). To get fifth you go down past fourth, across to the right then back up again to select fifth (a bit like a hidden, secret gear). Going up is usually fine but the fun comes when it's time to come back down. Miss the change from fifth to fourth and there's nothing you can do but stop, wrestle the lever back out and back into the conventional H part to select first then set off again. That box has brought many seasoned drivers to their knees in frustration, almost as evil as a five speed manual RE.

Echoes of me embarrassing myself driving a Scammel on one occasion and in a moment of lapsed concentration managed to get hopelessly lost with regards to which gear I was in.  I don't think I had to come to a complete halt, but it was near enough - I was already unpopular enough with the people behind me even before that!

I did pull in and let them by shortly after though.  While that thing was fun, god it was slow.  

[Inspector Morose]

Just now, Zelandeth said:

Echoes of me embarrassing myself driving a Scammel on one occasion and in a moment of lapsed concentration managed to get hopelessly lost with regards to which gear I was in.  I don't think I had to come to a complete halt, but it was near enough - I was already unpopular enough with the people behind me even before that!

I did pull in and let them by shortly after though.  While that thing was fun, god it was slow.  

Gate change? My sympathies.

[cms206]

Nothing much to report the last two days; EN11 again yesterday, E255 today.

 

Also as there has been recent chat of trolleybuses, have trolleybus prototype E12; not sure they've got the pantograph right.

[SunnySouth]

Not the world’s most exciting photo, but following the recent unfortunate incident of one of Bluestar’s ex-Brum E400s ending up in a river, I was pleased to see that the rest of them are alive and well - here are a pair of them in Chandler’s Ford on college runs. 1269 is at the back; the ‘marine incursion’ victim was 1267.

[cms206]

21 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

As LBF mentions, I recently drove a 1958 Leyland PD2 back to back with a 1958 Leyland Atlantean and by golly, I think I'd take the passengers!

Worlds apart to drive. The PD2 still had synchro on only the top two gears of its fully manual transmission and the steering, unassisted on both, is way heavier due to the mechanical units being up close with you. And that's unladen. After about 20 minutes in the PD2 I was glad to get out again. 

Just think... up here, Central Scottish were still specifying Leyland Leopards service buses with manual gearboxes as late as 1979

Power steering (and high cabs) came in for 1976 across the board, Western SMT took one fully auto Leopard that year, then reverted to manuals for 1977; Midland and Western both went semi auto from 1978 (GMS-S and TSJ-S batches) but Central continued with the half-crash 'box until 1978 before moving over to the beautiful EGB-T and GSU-T batches with 4-speed ZF syncromesh manuals; those were fantastic things, and a really nice drive.

[dollywobbler]

I'm sure they get easier to drive with practice but today's bus drivers really don't know they're born. Would be fun to put some in older buses. I guess the same is true of cars, though I doubt anyone who can drive a manual car would overly struggle with a 60s car.

[danthecapriman]

18 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

I'm sure they get easier to drive with practice but today's bus drivers really don't know they're born. Would be fun to put some in older buses. I guess the same is true of cars, though I doubt anyone who can drive a manual car would overly struggle with a 60s car.

I showed my apprentice my Capri once. Absolutely no clue what the manual choke was! I had to explain what it was and why it was needed.😄

[N19]

It makes me feel old that Enviro 400s are now an "old double decker" relegated to school runs etc. In my mind they are still brand new and futuristic! Up until a few years ago, Metroline used them across the board on a wide range of routes - they have a few of the later ones still around. Sullivans have a few which crash and clatter around on school runs whilst kicking up a large amount of smoke.

[N19]

2 minutes ago, danthecapriman said:

I showed my apprentice my Capri once. Absolutely no clue what the manual choke was! I had to explain what it was and why it was needed.😄

Anti-theft device against teenage joyriders?!

[High Jetter]

34 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

I guess the same is true of cars, though I doubt anyone who can drive a manual car would overly struggle with a 60s car.

Not so sure, choke is a forgotten art, column change might be an issue too.

[N19]

I actually found that, when I got my Capri back on the road, I had to "re-learn" the quirks. They all came back quickly, but just the... calibration, I guess, of your brain to do things like manage the choke, deal with no power steering etc. 

I can usually jump between cars quite easily. But when I only had the Capri, and anything else would be the occasional drive in a works van or hire car, there were quite a few moments when I jumped into a shiny new transit and almost took out a bollard through turning the wheel too viciously! 

[Inspector Morose]

7 hours ago, N19 said:

It makes me feel old that Enviro 400s are now an "old double decker" relegated to school runs etc. In my mind they are still brand new and futuristic! Up until a few years ago, Metroline used them across the board on a wide range of routes - they have a few of the later ones still around. Sullivans have a few which crash and clatter around on school runs whilst kicking up a large amount of smoke.

I was at the launch. I feel very old.

In a similar vein, the first sense of realisation that I am older was remembering the earliest buses that I saw entering service being withdrawn for scrap as life expired.  I recall the WMPTE Nationals coming in and them replacing the ex-Coventry Bristol REs that had been transferred over to North Division (My earliest childhood bus memory was the weekly trip to Bilson market on an RE). Over the years that followed, I saw them settle in, get refurbished, get re-engined, got to operate some as a subsidiary company, and then watch them leave the fleet, scattered far and wide until slowly, one by one, there were none left.  Cradle to the grave.

[Leyland Worldmaster]

10 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

I'm sure they get easier to drive with practice but today's bus drivers really don't know they're born. Would be fun to put some in older buses. I guess the same is true of cars, though I doubt anyone who can drive a manual car would overly struggle with a 60s car.

Ha! I kind of see what you mean, however if we used a time machine, the drivers of those old buses wouldn't be able to cope well with today's traffic levels and  general standard of driving!

I would love to have a go at a crash gearbox equipped bus.

So far, my half cab experience is:

A good few miles and years driving a preserved RT.

2× Leyland RTW.

Obviously, I prefer the Leylands. Yes the steering has more 'feel' but I just prefer the torque delivery of the O.600 power unit.

I also prefer the company an engine. Proud misanthrope, innit...

With sliding cab door; side window and windscreen open, ventilation is excellent even in hot weather.

Objectively as much as we all love older vehicles, modern ones are way easier to drive and are getting better and better.

 

[danthecapriman]

4 minutes ago, Leyland Worldmaster said:

 

Objectively as much as we all love older vehicles, modern ones are way easier to drive and are getting better and better.

 

I know it’s completely different to buses, but when I was at SSE my last van was a 66 reg Sprinter. Very very car like to drive with the layout in the cab and the way it drove. Quite a comfy thing to drive too. 
At the same time I had my own Transit mk2 - comparing the two was like night and day! The Transit was by no means an antiquated van compared to some but even so. The Transit felt like a big vehicle and had a much more ‘old truck’ like feel to it and its driving style. There’s absolutely no way you could drive the Transit like you could the Sprinter!

That being said, the Sprinter used to have an absolutely useless heater and the windscreen would freeze over inside in winter (no air con or heated screen!) whereas the Transit wouldn’t have those problems!