Unpopular Motoring Opinion Thread

[Matty]

I'm going to leap to the defence of the manual box. To those who really love driving, there's a pure pleasure of learning the quirks of a vehicle and getting the best out of it. And yes that includes clutch control and choosing the right gear for the right occasion.

If I want the car to decide for me then I'll just get a taxi.

[Jazoli]

58 minutes ago, Matty said:

I'm going to leap to the defence of the manual box. To those who really love driving, there's a pure pleasure of learning the quirks of a vehicle and getting the best out of it. And yes that includes clutch control and choosing the right gear for the right occasion.

If I want the car to decide for me then I'll just get a taxi.

Oh yes, manuals are great when in town, or stuck in miles of nose to tail traffic on the motorway, or doing the boring commute where you can gain so much pleasure from following some dopey twat for 15 miles down a B road.

I completely disagree obviously, manuals are old fashioned and antiquated, for the odd run in a sporty car down an empty road then yes, for everything else they are shit.

[Split_Pin]

10 hours ago, Matty said:

I'm going to leap to the defence of the manual box. To those who really love driving, there's a pure pleasure of learning the quirks of a vehicle and getting the best out of it. And yes that includes clutch control and choosing the right gear for the right occasion.

If I want the car to decide for me then I'll just get a taxi.

I think the really unpopular part of your opinion is inferring that anyone who chooses an automatic doesn't love driving, so good going 👍

[Matty]

2 minutes ago, Split_Pin said:

I think the really unpopular part of your opinions is inferring that anyone who drives an automatic doesn't love driving, so good going 👍

Nailed it 👌 

[Split_Pin]

I have 3 autos and a manual but I love driving 🤷‍♂️

Giving it some thought, I now realise that 'unpopular' and 'unfounded' are a bit different from each other.

[loserone]

12 hours ago, Matty said:

I'm going to leap to the defence of the manual box. To those who really love driving, there's a pure pleasure of learning the quirks of a vehicle and getting the best out of it. And yes that includes clutch control and choosing the right gear for the right occasion.

In the right car, I totally agree.  Not so much in a modern blob with DMF, a narrow band turbo and six stupid little gears.  

[sierraman]

12 hours ago, Wibble said:

The problem I can see coming, if more and more people takes their tests in automatics, is who will be able to take on and drive current classics in the future?

Also, talking about going up and then down through the box. I went on a defensive driving course at Goodwood in the early nineties, where the instructors were all ex traffic cops. Their mantra was “gears are for going, brakes are for stopping. Brakes are cheaper than clutches and gearboxes, don’t slow your car with gears”. Was alien to me but I’ve remembered it since whilst not always complying.

I remember being told this by an instructor. I suspect they’ve never encountered Porlock Hill, also I don’t know if a single case of a gearbox going through engine braking. Not one. Seen plenty of glazed pads/warped discs. 

[MiniMinorMk3]

2 hours ago, sierraman said:

I remember being told this by an instructor. I suspect they’ve never encountered Porlock Hill, also I don’t know if a single case of a gearbox going through engine braking. Not one. Seen plenty of glazed pads/warped discs. 

And that's why when ever I go through the Tyne Tunnel in my Auto Focus, I move the lever to manual and select a gear so the speed stays constant without the need for the brakes. Once at the bottom of the decline, it's back to auto and normal service.

[Yoss]

2 hours ago, sierraman said:

I remember being told this by an instructor. I suspect they’ve never encountered Porlock Hill, also I don’t know if a single case of a gearbox going through engine braking. Not one. Seen plenty of glazed pads/warped discs. 

Going off on a slight tangent here but seeing as you mentioned discs. It seems they have made brake discs a service item these days (well, for about the last two decades). I have changed them once on my Triumph in 27 years and have every reason to believe they were the original ones from 1969. They still had some life in them even then but I was doing the front wheel bearings and had a set of new discs lying around so I thought I'd put them on as the disc and bearing are part of the same job.

I've changed the pads plenty of times but the discs  are fine. Whereas now you seem to change the discs almost every time you change the pads. Seems very wasteful.

This is more of an observation than an opinion so possibly the wrong thread but you just reminded me.

[EspenO]

16 hours ago, Jazoli said:

Oh yes, manuals are great when in town, or stuck in miles of nose to tail traffic on the motorway, or doing the boring commute where you can gain so much pleasure from following some dopey twat for 15 miles down a B road.

Why blame a gear box, when the problem is clearly having a shit commute?

The only time I wish for a slushbox, is when stuck in start-stop traffic. But being stuck there is my own fault for timing the trip badly.

[Split_Pin]

9 minutes ago, EspenO said:

own fault

How would you suggest he avoids a shit commute? I'm all ears.

[EspenO]

Just now, Split_Pin said:

How would you suggest he avoids a shit commute? I'm all ears.

Starting earlier, leaving later, negotiate other working hours, getting another job, moving to somewhere more convenient… need any more?

Or just live with in a dull car, and keep a manual for the fun drives.

Or pootle around in an automatic all the time, if you’re content with that. I find myself going less interested in driving when I’m in an automatic, but we’re all different.

[Sham]

2 hours ago, Split_Pin said:

How would you suggest he avoids a shit commute? I'm all ears.

I literally changed jobs to avoid spending 30 minutes twice a day in queues on the Norwich ring road.

My commute is now 30 minutes of flowing b roads, and 2 roundabouts. My average speed is over 40mph.

I love an auto in traffic - but for the amount of time I'm in traffic compared to the fun of a manual on a good road, I'll suffer on the rare occasion I have to.

 

[jonathan_dyane]

21 hours ago, Wibble said:

...talking about going up and then down through the box. I went on a defensive driving course at Goodwood in the early nineties, where the instructors were all ex traffic cops. Their mantra was “gears are for going, brakes are for stopping. Brakes are cheaper than clutches and gearboxes, don’t slow your car with gears”. Was alien to me but I’ve remembered it since whilst not always complying.

I've always thought that 'gears to go brakes to slow' thing was utter bollocks; invariably if you change down to slow you are then already in the correct gear to then accelerate.

[juular]

26 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

I've always thought that 'gears to go brakes to slow' thing was utter bollocks; invariably if you change down to slow you are then already in the correct gear to then accelerate.

I agree it is bollocks. Probably an overly cautious way of discouraging people doing aggressive downshifts in a RWD car which I suppose in certain extreme circumstances can lose the back end.

Still I think it's far more appropriate to be in the right gear for your speed at all times. Engine braking is a good thing especially in poor conditions.

I think it's one to file in the same round cabinet as "coast to save fuel".

[EyesWeldedShut]

45 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

I've always thought that 'gears to go brakes to slow' thing was utter bollocks; invariably if you change down to slow you are then already in the correct gear to then accelerate.

They used to call it 'changing gear in a closing gap' and it applied when you were coming up on something a bit* fast.
i.e. if you are faffing around with the clutch pedal you are not in a position to be pressing the brake pedal.
Otherwise we were taught to just be in the correct gear for the road conditions and your speed - that was Roadcraft Stone Age version though

[Wibble]

6 minutes ago, EyesWeldedShut said:

They used to call it 'changing gear in a closing gap' and it applied when you were coming up on something a bit* fast.
i.e. if you are faffing around with the clutch pedal you are not in a position to be pressing the brake pedal.
Otherwise we were taught to just be in the correct gear for the road conditions and your speed - that was Roadcraft Stone Age version though

I never said I agreed with their thinking but had to comply to get through the course without being marked down and I’ve remembered it ever since. Of course everyone would change down on a long descent to avoid cooking the brakes and many of us would probably raise the revs during a down change to make it smoother too. Not sure how using the clutch affects your ability to use the brakes though.

[Sham]

If you do advanced driving or riding, they want you to do speed adjustment and then gears - so slowing from 60 for a roundabout, you brake to 20 or whatever and go straight from 6th to 2nd on one clutch pull, 1st if you'll need to stop - and stopping without releasing the clutch is fine.

Using a gear drop to slow will earn you a mark down.

It takes some getting used to, but does make for smoother and faster progress when you get it right, that's also the way the police high speed drivers and riders do it (they use the same manual, in fact) and it has proven benefits.

It is better, when done properly - engine braking only slows the driven wheels, which if making progress makes a car unstable and a bike dangerous.

I get both methods - but the advanced 'system of control' makes a lot of sense when applied fully and properly.

[juular]

3 minutes ago, Sham said:

It is better, when done properly - engine braking only slows the driven wheels, which if making progress makes a car unstable and a bike dangerous.

It seems like good practice to only be shifting down if you are already on the brakes, plus slowing without showing a brake light isn't great for those following.

When I say coming down the gears, I don't mean going 6,5,4,3,2, especially if making a rapid stop. If I was coming down a motorway slip road for example I'd be braking, then down to 4th, then 2nd when rolling to the junction at the end, ready to pull off.

Keeping in a high gear and trying to do a stop from high speed just seems unnecessarily hard on the brakes, a bit like how a heavy automatic always feels a bit shite on the brakes in comparison to a manual.

[Sham]

Modern brakes are so over engineered, and cheap, being hard on them is fine.

[Dyslexic Viking]

I always use engine braking and downshifting on the Mercedes. It has a pretty good engine braking and I can often drive down hills without touching the brakes. Since it has 1 circuit  brakes and drums all around, I prefer doing this.

[Jazoli]

5 hours ago, EspenO said:

Starting earlier, leaving later, negotiate other working hours, getting another job, moving to somewhere more convenient… need any more?

Or just live with in a dull car, and keep a manual for the fun drives.

Or pootle around in an automatic all the time, if you’re content with that. I find myself going less interested in driving when I’m in an automatic, but we’re all different.

Oh do fuck off you bellend, what a fucking stupid set of comments.

I think you’ve just won dickhead of the week, comfortably, and it’s only Monday.

[Sham]

On older cars, where brakes are a bit shit, I get it - but anything built in the last 30 years should have plenty good enough brakes to cope with hard braking from speed many times over.

Since I've started doing it properly while doing advanced courses, it really is better - the only time I start changing gear now is when the revs drop too low, and it works wonders for the stability of the vehicle. Sometimes dropping 4 or 5 gears at once. It's also better for control to keep the revs a bit higher in a slightly lower gear on twisty roads or in traffic - because slowing without gear changes isn't classed really engine braking because you aren't changing the forces on the driven wheels - I know it sounds contradictory but if you watch some advanced tutorial videos (Reg Local on You Tube is superb) it'll make a lot more sense.

[High Jetter]

23 hours ago, Wibble said:

The problem I can see coming, if more and more people takes their tests in automatics, is who will be able to take on and drive current classics in the future?

Yes, that's a very interesting thought - and if the majority choose an auto test the option of a manual test might disappear - though I imagine there'd be a bit of a row about that.

23 hours ago, Wibble said:

Brakes are cheaper than clutches and gearboxes, don’t slow your car with gears”.

After a handful of lessons pre-17 at school, my Dad regularly took me out - usually in his Commer PB1500 van - alongside having lessons with BSM. Dad had passed the IAM test (as have I, but am not completely happy with some of their ideas) and block changing, both up and down, was something I conquered very early. Sure, I'll drop a gear if needed to accelerate but otherwise I'll change down to match the engine speed unless I'm coming to a stop, or near stop, with the engine idling.

[EspenO]

15 minutes ago, Jazoli said:

Oh do fuck off you bellend, what a fucking stupid set of comments.

I think you’ve just won dickhead of the week, comfortably, and it’s only Monday.

Glad to be of service.

Well, he asked, I answered. The commute is (evidently) the problem here. 

[loserone]

A job and a commute are a massive part of people's lives.  It's not as easy as to say "just get another job" or "just move house", but lots of people put up with awful shite because they convince themselves they are trapped.  

 

Some people are trapped, and that is shit.  Many are not.

[Wibble]

8 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

Yes, that's a very interesting thought - and if the majority choose an auto test the option of a manual test might disappear - though I imagine there'd be a bit of a row about that.

After a handful of lessons pre-17 at school, my Dad regularly took me out - usually in his Commer PB1500 van - alongside having lessons with BSM. Dad had passed the IAM test (as have I, but am not completely happy with some of their ideas) and block changing, both up and down, was something I conquered very early. Sure, I'll drop a gear if needed to accelerate but otherwise I'll change down to match the engine speed unless I'm coming to a stop, or near stop, with the engine idling.

I can’t imagine the brakes on the Commer were all that great but @Sham’s posts do explain where the instructors were coming from. What also surprised me at the time was how aggressively they encouraged you to drive. I was in a new Volvo 240GL and they kept telling me to use the presence of a “large” car to intimidate folks in front to get out of the way, albeit within the speed limit of course. Was on dual carriage ways at this point.

[High Jetter]

1 minute ago, Wibble said:

I can’t imagine the brakes on the Commer were all that great

Not brilliant, but a good way to learn observational skills!

[EyesWeldedShut]

1 hour ago, Wibble said:

Not sure how using the clutch affects your ability to use the brakes though.

The logic explained to me there was that you should have both hands on the wheel during heavy braking. If you take one off to change gear then you will tend to reduce your braking effort/direction. @Sham has explained more of the logic above - sometimes it's a bit dogmatic.

My own view is that a lot of my 1986-89 Plod training has* (or should have) been outmoded by better cars - discs all round, ABS, better power/weight ratio and so on. Biggest thing they taught was spatial/speed awareness and observational skills. 

*e.g. I had to sit a van test double declutching up and down the gears at all times (even the Freight Rover had all-synchro by then  )

[Wibble]

4 minutes ago, EyesWeldedShut said:

The logic explained to me there was that you should have both hands on the wheel during heavy braking. If you take one off to change gear then you will tend to reduce your braking effort/direction. @Sham has explained more of the logic above - sometimes it's a bit dogmatic.

My own view is that a lot of my 1986-89 Plod training has* (or should have) been outmoded by better cars - discs all round, ABS, better power/weight ratio and so on. Biggest thing they taught was spatial/speed awareness and observational skills. 

*e.g. I had to sit a van test double declutching up and down the gears at all times (even the Freight Rover had all-synchro by then  )

Ah, I see, was thinking feet when you said using clutch.