Electric conversions of classics

[uk_senator]

70`s, 90`s, its all the same shiz at my age..

I remember the leveling suspension Esprit, had what looked like 20 dismantled Commodore 64`s strewn around the interior. I think Mercedes tested something similar on the W126 too, but they got it a lot more compact..
 

90s

They also worked on cars that leaned into bends

[dollywobbler]

Not if you read back all the posts in this thread. A few times it’s said that we will have no choice. I think that is incorrect,

 

I'm not sure. I can easily imagine a scenario where I find it hard to fuel the 2CV in my lifetime. Rural petrol stations are already dying out. If there was more of a move to electric, that's only going to hasten their demise, by which time pretty much every EV will have a greater range than my 2CV... My only hope is that EV tech is cheap enough by then that conversion won't cost the best part of ten grand. The engine is a large part of the 2CV's charm, but it isn't an essential part I don't think.

[New POD]

I'm not sure. I can easily imagine a scenario where I find it hard to fuel the 2CV in my lifetime. Rural petrol stations are already dying out. If there was more of a move to electric, that's only going to hasten their demise, by which time pretty much every EV will have a greater range than my 2CV... My only hope is that EV tech is cheap enough by then that conversion won't cost the best part of ten grand. The engine is a large part of the 2CV's charm, but it isn't an essential part I don't think.

Ah but you could double the range by taking a couple of Jerry cans with you.

[uk_senator]

It is & it isnt.. the thrum of a 2CV is very much part of its character.. Without it, it would be.. Odd. You could live with it, sure.. And what would the battery weight do to the handling & ride? Again, part of its character.. The ownership experience would then purely come down to its looks & image, as little else would be left..
 

I'm not sure. I can easily imagine a scenario where I find it hard to fuel the 2CV in my lifetime. Rural petrol stations are already dying out. If there was more of a move to electric, that's only going to hasten their demise, by which time pretty much every EV will have a greater range than my 2CV... My only hope is that EV tech is cheap enough by then that conversion won't cost the best part of ten grand. The engine is a large part of the 2CV's charm, but it isn't an essential part I don't think.

[dollywobbler]

It is & it isnt.. the thrum of a 2CV is very much part of its character.. Without it, it would be.. Odd. You could live with it, sure.. And what would the battery weight do to the handling & ride? Again, part of its character.. The ownership experience would then purely come down to its looks & image, as little else would be left..

 

 

A bit more weight could only improve the ride, though handling is a tricky one. Spreading the batteries out would reduce the front end bias, so might actually improve the handling. 

 

Never under-estimate the power of looks and image. After all, why do I prefer the 2CV to the far superior Dyane? It can only boil down to the fact that the 2CV looks like a 2CV, and the mechanically identical Dyane does not.

[Pillock]

Nobody is forcing anyone into an EV, it's just going to be harder to refuel an ICE in the next twenty years or so. Maybe you'll have to travel further if you live in the sticks, take a Jerry can or two along.

 

Maybe people will choose houses based on whether they can still buy fuel locally and where they can park a petrol car as I can see there being far far more EV only spots in communal carparks. If there's a low emission zone, you'll rule that out of your Rightmove search.

 

It's the reverse of current state of play where people want an EV but can't because there's nowhere to charge it and they're forced to queue at the one working charger within twenty miles.

 

Still want to tinker with distributors and hear the roar of a VV spluttering through a flat spot? That's fine! Honestly you'll still be able to in 10/20/30 years same as you still get pre war cars being driven to car shows today.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

...To steal a phrase from the great Mrs Doyle .... ‘what if maybe I like the misery?’...

EFA

 

[sierraman]

I think we’re being a bit dramatic here. Yes you probably won’t be able to drive into a town centre, but why would you want to? I’d doubt very much in 10 or 20 years you won’t be able to use your ICE on the road. Hybrids will become more popular and it will be a gradual thing. Without wishing to be lambasted here but the problem of pollution isn’t going to go away, we’re just shifting it to the Powerstation instead of the roads with this switch to electric.

[Stinkwheel]

I'm not sure. I can easily imagine a scenario where I find it hard to fuel the 2CV in my lifetime. Rural petrol stations are already closing.

I think that’s just normal business practice, smaller anything shops don’t survive as well as they used to.

The rural thing is a problem, won’t effect everyone though.

[Mrs6C]

Here's an interesting Dutch conversion of a 1972 Citroen DS to electric traction:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6f4WXd0w5o

[Pillock]

 

 

Without wishing to be lambasted here but the problem of pollution isn’t going to go away, we’re just shifting it to the Powerstation instead of the roads with this switch to electric.

Which is probably for the other thread on the open forum, but once you centralise power generation it makes it easier to swap the method.

 

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ shows zero coal usage right now, 26% gas turbine and a nice amount (35%) of renewable feeding those EVs.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Werent Lotus were involved in that noise canceling tech back in the 70`s? Or am I making that up...

 

I remember reading about one of the chief designers of the MX5 back in the late 1980's. He was very specific about the exhaust note, and wanted it to sound like a classic British sports car iirc.

Most unlike the designer of the 2010 Ford Fukkus which a neighbour drives. It sounds like a fart in a jar.

[dollywobbler]

Which is probably for the other thread on the open forum, but once you centralise power generation it makes it easier to swap the method.

 

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ shows zero coal usage right now, 26% gas turbine and a nice amount (35%) of renewable feeding those EVs.

 

Though a large chunk of that 'renewables' is wood chippings shipped from forests in North America. I'd like to see the sums on how that compares in carbon footprint terms with burning coal that's under the ground down the road (I know, coal was coming from the other side of the world too).

[Guest Hooli]

I thought the wood chippings came from Poland? That was the impression I got about Drax anyway.

[SierraMikeHotel]

Without wishing to be lambasted here but the problem of pollution isn’t going to go away, we’re just shifting it to the Powerstation instead of the roads with this switch to electric.

Not a lambast, but this is simply incorrect. A large proportion of power generation in the UK is renewable, and that proportion increases all the time.

 

As electric motors are so much more efficient than ICE, I've even seen a study that suggests they're cleaner even if you live in area that uses coal-burning power stations.

 

Edit: sorry, didn't see that Pillock had beaten me to it. I think this post still stands though.

[sierraman]

But what about when demand increases when everyone starts using EVs?

[Guest Hooli]

But what about when demand increases when everyone starts using EVs?

 

The grid falls over. I seem to recall we'll run out of generating capacity first but there isn't much spare transmission capacity in the grid either.

[MorrisItalSLX]

That is a big downfall of the battery electric car, the source of the power.

 

My money is on Hydrogen Fuel Cells replacing fossil fuels.

 

*Hides*

[Tayne]

The grid falls over. I seem to recall we'll run out of generating capacity first but there isn't much spare transmission capacity in the grid either.

The official line from the National Grid is that they would be fucking delighted, skipping with joy if another couple of million EVs appeared overnight.

 

This is because the difference in demand between 7pm on a week night and 4am is around 20% and balancing that is tricky and expensive. EVs sucking up electricity slowly overnight are a huge help to this.

Most EVs are charged slowly (overnight or at work) most of the time.

 

Any more than two million (up to 10 million or so) and they’d want smart meters and chargers to balance it out, the overnight charge would go from 5 or so hours to 5 and half ish or perhaps a little more as grid load is balanced locally.

 

They put a statement out which explained all this but regrettably included the line “if five million people plugged their cars into high output rapid chargers at the same time we’d have a problem”.

Despite the near fuck all chance of this happening the press zoomed in on that one line, ignored the rest of the report and started printing horror stories.

[Pillock]

There's also technologies where a rarely used EV kept connected to the mains can act as a balancer for your home, charging overnight and then letting your house use some of the power if you've decided to put your feet up and watch Homes Under The Hammer for the day instead of driving.

 

National Grid's biggest problem is not demand, it's the instability of demand as kettles get switched on after Corrie.

[Guest Hooli]

The official line from the National Grid is that they would be fucking delighted, skipping with joy if another couple of million EVs appeared overnight.

 

This is because the difference in demand between 7pm on a week night and 4am is around 20% and balancing that is tricky and expensive. EVs sucking up electricity slowly overnight are a huge help to this.

Most EVs are charged slowly (overnight or at work) most of the time.

 

Any more than two million (up to 10 million or so) and they’d want smart meters and chargers to balance it out, the overnight charge would go from 5 or so hours to 5 and half ish or perhsos a little more as grid load is balanced locally.

 

They put a statement out which explained all this but regrettably included the line “if five million people plugged their cars into high output rapid chargers at the same time we’d have a problem”.

Despite the near fuck all chance of this happening the press zoomed in on that one line, ignored the rest of the report and started printing horror stories.

 

True, if they all (or at least most) get charged at night. If there was a massive swap to EVs I'd expect demand to be all day too though, maybe EV buses charging between shifts as an example as I know current buses often need refueling during the day & I doubt EVs would have greater range.

[Pillock]

Although if you get the bus system right, you reduce car journeys which right now means less pollution, in the future that could mean less EV journeys so less range needed, and less electric needed.

 

I don't have the figures for how many KWH a bus uses but Nottingham's park and ride uses pure electric buses and they work very well, doing several round trips before they swap to a fully charged bus.

[Tayne]

True, if they all (or at least most) get charged at night. If there was a massive swap to EVs I'd expect demand to be all day too though, maybe EV buses charging between shifts as an example as I know current buses often need refueling during the day & I doubt EVs would have greater range.

 

How far do you need to drive the bus?

 

https://insideevs.com/proterra-electric-bus-sets-range-record-at-1100-miles-without-recharging/

[ProgRocker]

Russian electric classic   ...        https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45292028  

I want one!!!

 

Autocar link:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/kalashnikov-launches-tesla-rivalling-electric-car

 

I always really liked those Russian Izh cars - quite a tidy 1970s design imo.

[JeeExEll]

If someone with a bit of skilz and knowledge were to do an electric conversion on a sound but low-value 80s or 90s smoll van, say a Honda Acty or whatever, what would be necessary in getting it road-legal, motoring-insurance as a modified car, tax, etc?

 

Can you just 'electrify' it and drive off up the street? (No, I don't think so). Would the 'red tape' involved in getting such a project road legal make it too much of a headache?

 

 

As a general guideline are there MOT requirements which apply specifically to electric vehicles — electrical installation safety, risk of fire, storage of batteries, brakes (no servo), etc.?

 

Edit - after a bit of Googling it would appear that the MOT test is exactly the same for electric cars except for no fuel emissions test. This obviously refers to production models.

[bigstraight6]

Part of the appeal of driving my Ford Zodiac or Triumph 2000 is the lovely noises they make, if they sounded like a fucking golf cart it would be a dull driving experience.

[Tayne]

That is a big downfall of the battery electric car, the source of the power.

 

My money is on Hydrogen Fuel Cells replacing fossil fuels.

 

*Hides*

 

 

 

Two years ago.

 

 

Hydrogen.

Well to start with you're going to need a lot of electricity.

In order to create the hydrogen you either have to crack it off water using electrolysis (this is clean but uses lots of energy) or reformed from natural gas (this also needs lots of energy to get up to 1200 degrees C but the process releases huge amounts of carbon dioxide).

Now given that most hydrogen comes from petrochemical companies, which process do you think they use.

 

You've then got to use more energy to compress the hydrogen (to 750 bar or so) for storage.

You're going to need a very, very heavy duty tank as the hydrogen will try and escape through the tank at a molecular level.

While its doing this it will embrittle the metal meaning anything that handles compressed hydrogen has to be regularly inspected and has a very short life.

 

You're then going to use more energy putting that hydrogen in the truck, driving the truck to the hydrogen fuel station, pumping it into the tank and then pumping it into the FCV.

Its at this point that hydrogen people will talk about refuelling your car in a matter of minutes.

And yes, the first car there does get refuelled in minutes.

However, because of the pressure and temperature issues that connection, hydrogen transfer and disconnection cause the next car will have to wait.

The newest and most advanced hydrogen fueling station in the UK is at the Nation Physical Laboratory and they proudly boast that it can refuel "up to 12 cars a day"

For comparison I reckon a four pump petrol station could do 576 cars a day and a triple head rapid charger could refuel 132 electric cars in a day under ideal conditions.

 

Assuming you can find a hydrogen car and refuel it, what's it like to drive?

Its just like an electric car.

The reason for this is that is an electric car.

As fuel cells can't throttle anywhere near quickly enough (response time is measured in minutes), the car will just be using that fuel cell to make electricity to fill the batteries.

That electricity is then used to drive an electric motor.

There is no gear change, no rev range, no peak power.

Driving a Fuel Cell Vehicle is just like driving an electric car, with the exception of the fact that there are only about 12 places in the UK to refuel it whereas the EV could be plugged into any of the 1 billion 3-pin plug sockets or the 5 thousand car chargers...

I'd imagine that must create some range anxiety...

 

I don't know that for certain as on the two occasions I've been stood next to an FCV asking when I can drive it I've been given an answer in years.

The first was in 2006 when the Tuscon FCV was "4-5 years away from being available", the chap from Hyundai was somewhat unimpressed when I told him I thought that compressing the hydrogen further (from 350 bar to 700 bar) to double the range (100 to 200 miles) wasn't a proper solution.

The second was at the EV roadshow here in Aberdeen two months ago, the chap who runs the Co-Wheels Car club was proudly displaying his Hyundai ix35 FCV.

They've had the car since January (for evaluation) and I wanted to know when it would be on the rental fleet. "Next year at some point" was the answer. It turns out that despite Aberdeen having one of only two hydrogen stations in Scotland it doesn't run at a high enough pressure to get enough hydrogen into the car, "We can't get the low fuel warning light to go out, you might just make 30 miles if you're lucky..."

They're going to a build a new station "next year at some point".

 

Remember all that electricity we had at the start of our hydrogen adventure?

If we'd just put in the grid and then poured it into a readily available electric car we would have had about three times the usable energy and been able to drive three times as far.

 

So in summary, hydrogen isn't as efficient as an EV, its not as clean as an EV and, by the time the refineries have upgraded their facilities, added extra storage, shipped it out in new fancy tankers to newly built hydrogen stations, it won't be cheap.

Hydrogen is only the future if your name is BP Esso McShell and everyone else is stupid.

http://autoshite.com/topic/21111-seriously-no-really-interesting-stuff-about-electric-cars/?p=1089816

 

 

Hydrogen was also the fuel of the future about 40 years ago...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjfONpsFvyM

[Tadhg Tiogar]

...if you get the bus system right, ...

In Switzerland, yes. I doubt it could be done here. Our lot are just not that fastidious and, where they are, other things get in to thwart them.

[tooSavvy]

UToob is full of 'nerds' powering go-karts with rewired alternators and the 'off gridders' building hydro with washing machine motors a generators...

 

I was taken with the Bolivian Lithium process (well, the NOT being processed) as the world gears up to shaft the poor [again] for mineral rapage

[Pillock]

In Switzerland, yes. I doubt it could be done here. Our lot are just not that fastidious and, where they are, other things get in to thwart them.

Very true. I think Nottingham has had some luck, they've got a lot of disused railway land around and about the city from when the Great Central packed up and left so it has been easier than you'd expect to bring trams in, as well as converting some of the existing bus P&R sites to electric. The buses don't actually go that far, just enough to not need lots of inner city parking (they've just bulldozed a 500 space multistory and it's not mattered a jot in terms of congestion, it just wasn't being used)

 

If I think about Leicester, then I can't imagine for a second how you'd run trams through the city. And there is a park and ride scheme but the sites are much further out of the city, it's a half hour journey rather than ten minutes in Nottingham so you'd need more buses or faster charging.