Zel's Motoring Adventures...Volvo, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar & A Sinclair C5 - Updated 13/11.

[SiC]

I don't particularly like Facebook and deleted my uni one a few years from nearly two decades ago but I made a new account again just for car stuff. The P4 Drivers Guild group are especially helpful and knowledgeable. They also have a forum but it's not frequented as much as the FB group. Might be worth asking on there for any tips or hints on head removal. 

[Surface Rust]

I hope I'm wrong, but I think the core plug at the rear of the engine in the P4 is in the block, not the head.

Mine had a tiny weep from it over 10 years ago, and as it seemed such a nightmare to access, I'm ashamed to say I epoxied a steel disc in situ. It still seems to be holding though!

[Zelandeth]

21 minutes ago, Surface Rust said:

I hope I'm wrong, but I think the core plug at the rear of the engine in the P4 is in the block, not the head.

Mine had a tiny weep from it over 10 years ago, and as it seemed such a nightmare to access, I'm ashamed to say I epoxied a steel disc in situ. It still seems to be holding though!

Given where the water is I don't think that would be a likely candidate, all the moisture seems to be coming from the head to block seam or above.

Also, it's not a bodge if it works!

[LightBulbFun]

didn't quite manage to post about it yesterday because the forum went down, but yesterday marks 5 years since you got TPA! its still is amazing how far she has come in those 5 years!  

theres also another major milestone coming up for TPA in the next couple months, (that I wonder if anyone else has noticed is coming) but ill post about that then  

[Zelandeth]

Today hasn't been the best of days.  Not sure how, but it seems I've angered the automotive gods this month.

First up - on the third attempt I managed to source this for the van.

First one looked to have been stored at the bottom of the sea for the last 20 years and was clearly fit for nothing aside from the scrap bin.  Second one was an offside caliper when I'd ordered a nearside one.  Third time lucky hopefully.

Then I couldn't get a single one of the wheel bolts out.  Not by hand nor with either the mains or air impact guns.  Fine, the garage who last had that wheel off can get that job.  My enthusiasm was already in negative figures before I started.  This didn't help.

Yes that temperature is clearly in the sun...but guess what?  I'm sitting in the same sun while trying to work on this nonsense.

Then I found more unwelcome news.

That was lovely blue clean(ish) coolant 48 hours ago.  Now it's an oily, slimy mess.  It appears that the Renault has decided that the Rover has set a trend with its head gasket woes and wanted to join the party.  

I had hoped to just chuck this one at a garage to be sorted as I don't particularly like messing with heads on OHC engines, nor do I really have time for it.  However neither of the usual garages I use are vaguely interested in taking it on as they're too busy.  Great.  So I guess I will be doing it myself. 

So back down to two working cars out of five again. 

Speaking of which, now three, four?  I've lost count now, months on Autoglass still haven't been able to source a windscreen for the Caddy.  Still on indefinite back order apparently.

Wonderful.  Glad to be a part of it.

[Zelandeth]

Had the pleasure today of speaking to one garage that had been suggested to me elsewhere, enquiring as to whether they might be willing to take on the head gasket job on the Renault.

Their response: "For **** sake, do yourself a favour and scrap the ****er." Then hanging up on me.

Real professional.  

Things *may* be looking slightly less grim for the Rover though.  As I'm sure you would, before committing to pulling the head off I wanted to be absolutely bloody sure the water wasn't coming from somewhere else.

Using a camera to get where I can't see directly I noticed something which very much made me go "Hmmm..." Just now.

See it?

Zoom, enhance.

That is water running down the face of the head, above the seam with the block, apparently from the bottom of the inlet manifold.

The inlet manifold which I know is water heated.  Which for some unknown reason my brain had decided didn't have a wet connection to the head...yeah, given there's only one coolant line to it that would work real well wouldn't it?  Of course there's coolant passing between the manifold and head.

That corner, where the seal looks distinctly compromised from what we can see of it, I believe corresponds to the circled bit on this new gasket.

Which looks to me rather like the sort of cut out I'd expect for a coolant passage.

So I think we'll try replacing that before we go to the lengths of pulling the head off.  Though I'm not actually sure it's all that much less actual work!

...It does mean not having to bin two gallons of oil with all of about three hours of run time on though, which my wallet would definitely appreciate.

The head *will* need to come off at some point at the very least to replace the water pump to head seal, but if we could take a bit of the urgency off at least until I get the Renault sorted and through its MOT next month that would be lovely!

[SiC]

Good news if it is. Is there an intake manifold in the boxes of bits to compare? I know there is an exhaust but can't remember if intake.

[Zelandeth]

37 minutes ago, SiC said:

Good news if it is. Is there an intake manifold in the boxes of bits to compare? I know there is an exhaust but can't remember if intake.

That is a very good thought...off to go rummaging.

Edit: Sadly not.  However looking at the gasket and thinking about it, it seems pretty cut and dry really.  There's no logical reason for there to be a void there for anything else I can think of.  There's no reason for anything else to be passing between the inlet manifold and the head...there's the inside of the manifold itself and the water jacket, that's it surely.

[Saabnut]

If it helps any, in 30+ years of P4 ownership and knowing many, many others, I have never heard of HGF on one. 

[Zelandeth]

4 hours ago, Saabnut said:

If it helps any, in 30+ years of P4 ownership and knowing many, many others, I have never heard of HGF on one. 

Thank you.  That's the sort of experienced comment that's really useful as someone still learning their way around a car.

I've given everything that needs to be unbolted a thorough dousing in PlusGas while it was warm today and will leave it to stew overnight.  Hopefully get the opportunity to try to pull things apart tomorrow.  Fingers crossed without breaking any studs or daft nonsense like that.

[Zelandeth]

I do not handle heat well.  Anything north of low 20s C, I'll be hiding in an air conditioned room please.

Perfect day for working on a car then.

Simple enough, couple of the nuts on the underside of the manifold were a bit of a git to get to, especially the one directly above the generator, but nothing too bad.  Helpfully all those involved are sizes which match metric, so I could use the less clunky tools.

The front lower nut holding the carb onto the manifold though still tried my patience.

Thankfully everything unscrewed without any protest - I was slightly concerned about the hazard of studs breaking, but no worries there.  About a third of them unscrewed from the head rather than the nut coming off, but I'll take that over a struggle any day.  I kind of wish they had all done that as it would have made scraping the gasket off a heck of a lot less fiddly.

My theory was that the gasket had failed around the rearmost lower coolant passage, so finding this was a bit of a morale boost.

What then followed was the best part of two hours of scraping.

Shown here at about the 80% stage I think.

Obviously I dug as much of the gunk out of the head and manifold as I could, but there really wasn't much to be honest for a car of this age.  Few bits of flaky crud, but nothing too bad.

I was originally planning to leave it ready to put back together and call it a day today.  However then bloody mindedness, mindless determination, stupidity (delete as you think appropriate) took over.

Roughly an hour later.

I reckon at least half of that time was spent bolting the bloody carb back on.  That one nut is absolutely bastard awkward.

I got everything back together and had time to get the cooling system bled, up to temperature and a quick test run round the block.

Result?

I'll take that.  We had two oil leaks pretty immediately evident.  One (which you can see there) was from the filter housing retaining bolt on the oil filter. 

Which after being tightened up a smidge further seems to have stopped. 

The other one is I'm 90% certain is just coming from the rear of the exhaust valve tappet cover which I'm waiting on a new gasket for.

After the car had been sitting for about 15 minutes there was one drip from the rear of the engine which looks to be oil rather than coolant - and on a 60 year old Rover I'll call that entirely acceptable I think.

We'll only really be able to tell properly after I get the car out for a proper run, but initially things look hopeful at least.

This took me basically the whole afternoon - and I now am utterly broken.  I really ought to have been hiding inside rather than messing around with this nonsense on a day this bloody hot.

[Zelandeth]

Had the Rover out this afternoon for about an hour or so of bumbling around running errands.

Good news, it's no longer peeing oil everywhere now the oil filter housing bolt was nipped up.  It's also no longer peeing coolant out.

There is however still a coolant weep in that general area - it's not enough to be an issue I reckon as the amount of scale in the general area suggests it's been weeping for years if not decades.  Plus before it started pouring out of that blown gasket there didn't seem to be any excessive water usage.

Pretty sure the only reasons we can be seeing water creeping out there is either a crack or porosity issue in the block.  I can't *feel* anything, but the water appearing there (it never actually drips, even after the engine is stopped) tells me there has to be something there.

Given this is a wet liner engine and has a cooling system capacity somewhere in the region of 15 litres, so provided the loss doesn't become an issue from either a manageability or environmental standpoint I'm just not going to worry about it.  Doesn't strike me as the sort of issue that's likely to suddenly get worse overnight.  Just keep an eye on it I reckon.

Couple of folks have pointed out that this is exactly the sort of engine and sort of issue that old school Radweld was really designed for...I mean it's not like this thing has a microchannel radiator or anything like that like on a modern car for it to clog up. 

I usually run a mile from the stuff, but then again that's because I've usually been trying to dig it's residue out of 80s and 90s cars where someone has stuck in stuff like that to try to fix a totally stuffed radiator or water pump...this is a slightly different animal.

PS. Yes the sealant is a bloody mess.  It was so hot that it was basically setting the moment it touched the metal making it really hard to get as thin and even a layer as I wanted.  I used a bit because the bottom of the manifold was quite pitted in a few areas so figured it was warranted.  It's tidy up top where you can see it...I didn't have the patience to get in there with a rag and solvents to clean underneath the manifold.

[Zelandeth]

Something I'd been wanting to check on the Rover was the timing, especially since I'd had the distributor off and had set it back using naught but Mk I Eyeball and confirming it sounded happy enough.

The actual timing mark on this engine is on the flywheel according to the manual...bugger trying to see that.  

Number 1 plug out, use a screwdriver to show me when the piston is at TDC, then out with the paint marker.

Things are correctly lined up when viewed in line with the edge of the fan shroud.

Yes that's the outside of the harmonic balancer (no idea if it's got a rubber damper in), but we're not using this to set up anything critical - I just want to see what it's set to, confirm the mechanical advance is working properly and tweak it a bit if need be.  It's not like I'm setting up the cam timing after having the engine apart or anything like that.

This is what the plug looks like.  Seems healthy enough to me.

Hooking these leads up this way round felt all kinds of wrong.

This is where I ran into problems.  Specifically that my timing light appears to have died.  It's still firing, but the advance control does precisely nothing.

The shown timing is all over the shop too... though that seems to be the equipment rather than the car.  I checked the Renault too for reference and it was similarly showing me to have just over 60 degrees +/- 20 advance at idle...which I know is utter nonsense.  

I know I have another older, better quality timing light buried in the garage somewhere - however the where is a very valid question!  Of course this is exactly the sort of job the Sun motor tester would be ideal for if it were within range of the garage rather than still sitting in my conservatory.  That would let me see what the dwell angle is as well and if it's stable - which given how smoothly the engine idles I reckon it must be.

I'll see if I have a chance to have a rummage later in the week and will take another look if the other timing light turns up.  Just irritating when tools you've only used a handful of times go faulty.  I'll obviously pull this one apart and see if it's fixable - if it's just the potentiometer having gone open or something like that it shouldn't be hard.

 

Have to run up to Leicester for the dentist tomorrow, and am seriously considering taking the Rover.  Would be nice to get it out on a reasonable run since (hopefully) fixing several leaks to get a bit of confidence built up again.

[timolloyd]

I vote Rover!

[SiC]

There is a handy long metal tab that is on the starter solenoid which makes a good battery connection for stuff like timing lights. I don't know if its factory (I'm guessing not) but I left it on there as it wasn't doing any harm.

[Zelandeth]

I had an appointment I really didn't want to risk being late for, an hour and a bit up the M1 this morning...so the obvious, sensible thing to do was take the Caddy.

Yeah we all saw that coming didn't we?

I figured it was about time we did a bit of an acid test for this car.  Generally besides the occasional moment of darting out of a busy junction and getting myself under way quickly I'd been being pretty gentle with her.  I reckoned with the amount of leaks and such I've now sorted, and the ignition system seeming to be happy enough now it was time to take the kid gloves off.  So we went up the motorway, but we *properly* went up the motorway, not sitting behind a lorry at 56mph, no, we were going to properly make progress.

In all about 120 miles done today, and especially on the way back we were getting a good bit of a hussle on as the traffic was lighter.  Trip was showing 2.6 miles or thereabouts when I set out.

Coolant level once I got back home and everything had cooled mostly down?

Right where I left it.  Likewise oil hasn't moved, even though I know she is still leaking appreciably from the exhaust valve tappet cover.

I'll take that as a result.

An observation too.  Given how old the design of this thing is, she has absolutely no business whatsoever being so happy at modern motorway speeds.  Wind noise really is the only thing which intrudes into the impression of effortless progress.

Next task: Try to secure the bloody wing mirrors so overtakes aren't quite such a hassle.  Oh, and service the speedometer (the issue is hardened grease in the trip counter drive) so it doesn't wobble so much.  Those are both relatively minor things which will provide a decent quality of life improvement I think.

[High Jetter]

It's almost as though the designers in the 50's and 60's knew what they were doing. Younger peeps may be surprised.

[somewhatfoolish]

At risk of inciting an angry mob wielding pitchforks and torches; ignoring legality is there a cheap camera/display answer to terrible wing mirror related blind spots? A dashcam level of quality should be adequate and being able to see things rather than peering at a wobbly thing the size of a postcard that's 6' away would be a safety boon.

[High Jetter]

Fair point, but mirrors have been around many 000's of years before cameras, and I drove for over 40 years without one. The eyes have it.

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

I had an appointment I really didn't want to risk being late for, an hour and a bit up the M1 this morning...so the obvious, sensible thing to do was take the Caddy.

Yeah we all saw that coming didn't we?

I figured it was about time we did a bit of an acid test for this car.  Generally besides the occasional moment of darting out of a busy junction and getting myself under way quickly I'd been being pretty gentle with her.  I reckoned with the amount of leaks and such I've now sorted, and the ignition system seeming to be happy enough now it was time to take the kid gloves off.  So we went up the motorway, but we *properly* went up the motorway, not sitting behind a lorry at 56mph, no, we were going to properly make progress.

In all about 120 miles done today, and especially on the way back we were getting a good bit of a hussle on as the traffic was lighter.  Trip was showing 2.6 miles or thereabouts when I set out.

Coolant level once I got back home and everything had cooled mostly down?

Right where I left it.  Likewise oil hasn't moved, even though I know she is still leaking appreciably from the exhaust valve tappet cover.

I'll take that as a result.

An observation too.  Given how old the design of this thing is, she has absolutely no business whatsoever being so happy at modern motorway speeds.  Wind noise really is the only thing which intrudes into the impression of effortless progress.

Next task: Try to secure the bloody wing mirrors so overtakes aren't quite such a hassle.  Oh, and service the speedometer (the issue is hardened grease in the trip counter drive) so it doesn't wobble so much.  Those are both relatively minor things which will provide a decent quality of life improvement I think.

Awesome to see the Rover P4 get out and about proper! I love hearing about it hustling and bustling without a care in the world, especially I imagine most people will probably look at it and think "ahh that bit of old stoge probably gets driven by a giffer to the shops and back once a week and I bet it cant pull the skin off a rice pudding" only for it to come flying past them at speed, must get some looks/reactions  

 

[RayMK]

10 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

At risk of inciting an angry mob wielding pitchforks and torches; ignoring legality is there a cheap camera/display answer to terrible wing mirror related blind spots? A dashcam level of quality should be adequate and being able to see things rather than peering at a wobbly thing the size of a postcard that's 6' away would be a safety boon.

I know what you mean.  Wing mirrors take a while to get used to.  When door mirrors became the norm I used to find them annoying because you had to move your head to glance at them whereas wing mirrors just required slight eyeball swivelling whilst still looking ahead through the windscreen.  This was a problem on driving tests.  The examiner liked to see you waving your head around and getting dizzy checking in mirrors, so door mirrors were ideal.

[LightBulbFun]

11 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

At risk of inciting an angry mob wielding pitchforks and torches; ignoring legality is there a cheap camera/display answer to terrible wing mirror related blind spots? A dashcam level of quality should be adequate and being able to see things rather than peering at a wobbly thing the size of a postcard that's 6' away would be a safety boon.

I dont think Zel has a problem with the mirrors themselves, I think if past comments are anything to go by, its just they get get blown out of adjustment in the wind, and that still needs sorting  (and he has been driving TPA for almost 5 years now so I think he is familiar with the concept of wing vs door mirrors ) 

1 hour ago, RayMK said:

I know what you mean.  Wing mirrors take a while to get used to.  When door mirrors became the norm I used to find them annoying because you had to move your head to glance at them whereas wing mirrors just required slight eyeball swivelling whilst still looking ahead through the windscreen.  This was a problem on driving tests.  The examiner liked to see you waving your head around and getting dizzy checking in mirrors, so door mirrors were ideal.

 this is one of the things I noticed right away when I took REV for her first drive around here (back in the brief period I had her at home!) I could check the mirrors as you say with just a quick glance, felt much more intuitive to me that way and also just nicer, when your rowing through Central London, the less you have to physically do/worry about make a difference, even small things like this!

(and once @bobdisk had very kindly help to adjust them for me before my first trip out (that is one down-side adjusting them is a bit of a 2 person job!) I found them to be perfectly adequate in terms of rear visibility, despite what most people seem to say about old cars!)

also just in general all round visibility is *so much* better in REV, compared to any driving instructor car I had driven beforehand, It was genuinely startling  *how much* I could see when I did my over the shoulder/life-saver checks in REV for the first time

[Zelandeth]

I don't mind wing mirrors to be honest.  Properly fitted and adjusted they do the job just fine, you just use them a bit differently.

Problem with these is mainly that the big rubber washer under them has disintegrated - however the mounting bolts really aren't interested in shifting after 60 years. Someone has already dented the top of the passenger wing trying to shift that one by the looks of it.

[vulgalour]

Given how easy it is to get that type of mirror second hand (new ones seem universally to be garbage in the chroming department), I'd chop them off and just replace them if the nuts are totally seized.  Alternatively, knock the old rubber washer out and make a new one with a slot cut in it so you can wedge that in place and glue it together to stop it falling out.  The rubber helps with damping the vibration and preventing rotation much more than sealing against water ingress.

[Zelandeth]

Spot the difference.

No?

The difference is that the boot lid is actually latched closed for the first time in goodness only knows how long.

While in the vicinity it fixed the one dead number plate light.  Just needed a bulb.

The van is away having a replacement brake caliper fitted, and *hopefully* will have a fresh MOT tomorrow.

While I had a bit of room on the drive I took the opportunity to get TPA out for a run so she didn't get too jealous of the new arrival.  Oh, and get access to the far end of the garage so I could stow a few of the bits of Rover I'd slowly been burying TPA with.

Of course it would have been rude not to get a photo of them together.

I really do need to get the final paint on those bits on the Rover.

[RayMK]

@ZelandethYour Rover's rear lights look remarkably similar to those on my 1961 Reliant.  I think they are also used on other cars, maybe the Mini (van?).  Last time I looked at getting a spare light unit they were retailing at £200, so I used nail varnish on the inner surfaces to restore the colour to satisfy an MOT man.  

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, RayMK said:

@ZelandethYour Rover's rear lights look remarkably similar to those on my 1961 Reliant.  I think they are also used on other cars, maybe the Mini (van?).  Last time I looked at getting a spare light unit they were retailing at £200, so I used nail varnish on the inner surfaces to restore the colour to satisfy an MOT man.  

I do believe they are the same  the Mini-pickup (up-until 1978~) is what used them also, (the Van etc used a different style) but the P4 used them originally/first as in I believe the P4 is what they where designed for if that makes sense, then they found use elsewhere

before the Mini pick-up they also found use on the Harper Mk6B (curiously not used on the Mk6, Mk6A or Mk7, only the Mk6B and nothing else go figure, which is a shame because I think they fit the styling much better then the generic round items used on all other Marks)

 

 

[Zelandeth]

Getting properly pissed off with the brake saga on the van now.

Failed MOT on brake imbalance.

Garage looked into it, declared nearside caliper in need of replacement.  They couldn't source one.

Ordered caliper no 1.  Turned up looking like it had been stored at the bottom of of the sea and was never going to work without a complete rebuild.  Refund of that is still sitting with PayPal.

Ordered caliper no 2.  Offside caliper turned up rather than the nearside one I'd ordered.  At least that was promptly refunded, they didn't have a nearside one in stock.

Caliper no 3 arrived, and was fitted yesterday afternoon.  Doesn't work.  Getting fluid to the union to it, but bugger all will pass into the caliper itself.  It's working far worse than the one that came off.

So I need to now go cycle half an hour over there again, retrieve the bastard thing un-fixed again, and take the original caliper to Big Redd to be rebuilt...which is what I should have done in the first place.  Then need to try to get a refund on the cost of this one, after it's been fitted.  Sure that won't be at all difficult.

Excuse me while I go find a brick wall to smash my head against repeatedly.

Edit: Van now collected, I'm inclined to agree with the garage.  The nearside front where the new caliper is is now plainly doing sod all.  It's pulling way, way worse under braking than with the old one on. 

Examination of the old caliper shows three of the four pistons to be pretty firmly stuck, and all the rubber boots are in need of replacement.  So it definitely wouldn't have been performing as well as it should, but would have been providing at least some contribution.

[Zelandeth]

Last oil leak I'm bothered about fixing on the Rover (there are a couple of really minor weeps I'm just not bothered about) was from the rear of the exhaust tappet cover, which dripped into the starter motor and would leave quite a mark when parked up.  Especially after a higher speed run.

I'd been waiting on the arrival of the correct gasket for it as I managed to order the wrong one initially. Which I'm sure was a case of fat fingers and touch screens rather than me not knowing what I was looking for.

I continue to be astonished by how clean this engine seems to be internally.

Someone really has taken care of this mechanically for a lot of its life it seems like.

As I kind of expected, the issue was indeed a flattened and deformed gasket towards the rear.

Thankfully unlike the one on the inlet side, this hadn't been glued in place and peeled off nicely in one piece.

You can see how much it's lost its shape compared to the new one.

New gasket in within ten minutes.

Then went out for a half hour or so test drive, including a fast run up and back down the A5.

No sign of any drips at the back where it always used to leak.  Slight weep around a couple of the bolts (I think the seals under them have gone flat), but nothing to worry about.  I'll get a new set of washers for the bolts ordered next time I'm getting parts in, but it's not urgent.

I don't mind the odd drop here and there, but it will be nice not having a perpetual oil slick where I park on the drive now.

Though I'm also fully aware that this is a 60s British car, so it will probably just find somewhere else to come out of now!

[Zelandeth]

Look what I picked up this afternoon.

One brake caliper freshly rebuilt by Bigg Red Brakes over by Worcester.  Only dropped it off on Monday afternoon and got a call late on yesterday saying it was ready to pick up.  Given the luck we've had with this so far I decided not to allow the postal system to get involved so did the delivery and collection in person.  Very pleasant to deal with, and I thought the £110 asked to rebuild a pretty damned substantial four pot caliper like this was entirely reasonable, I was braced for considerably more.  In all honesty if I'd known that was the price tag attached and that it could be turned around anything like that quickly I'd have just done this in the first place.  Lesson learned.

Won't be till next week it can be reunited with the van, but hopefully that should then be the end of our braking woes.  At least I trust that this one has been properly put together unlike the supposedly "professionally rebuilt" one from eBay which was dead out of the box.  I'll be asking the garage to provide me with a written report stating it was defective to hopefully get the money back - or we can get Paypal involved again.  If it was £30 or so I wouldn't care so much, but we're talking the best part of £200 here for a part that turned out to be dead on arrival.  I'm going to be out of pocket probably to the tune of around that much anyway because of the amount of labour that's been wasted trying to get the defective part to work as the garage unsurprisingly originally assumed the deficiency to rest with the rest of the braking system given they'd just taken off a caliper that was also performing poorly on this wheel!  I'd have done exactly the same amount of tail chasing, if not more.

I know you'll be disappointed to learn that I didn't take the Rover for that run - but I figured for the best part of a two hour drive mostly on roads I didn't know all that well the Caddy was the sensible choice.  Especially given that it involved the A422 between Buckingham and Banbury - and with the mostly non-existent rear suspension on the Rover at the moment I suspect that road would have hammered both me and the car to pieces given the state it's in.