IET Article - Car engines to increase in size following VW emissions scandal

[SiC]

Interesting article I found, from The Institution of Engineering and Technology (a credible source):

Car engines to increase in size following VW emissions scandal

 

Pretty much what we all suspected early on.

 

“The techniques we’ve used to reduce engine capacities will no longer allow us to meet emissions standards,†said Alain Raposo, head of powertrain at the Renault-Nissan alliance.

 

“We’re reaching the limits of downsizing,†he said at the Paris auto show. Renault, VW and GM’s Opel all declined to comment on specific engine plans.

VW is replacing its 1.4 litre three-cylinder diesel with a four-cylinder 1.6 for cars like the Polo, they said, while Renault is planning a near-10 per cent enlargement to its 1.6 litre R9M diesel, which had replaced a 1.9-litre model in 2011.

[Guest Hooli]

Yay! by the time I can afford a new car they'll all have 5litre V8s.

[Bren]

They have reached the limits of downsizing - if engines get any smaller they will last as long as a UKIP leader.

 

Remember what Carroll Shelby said "There ain't no substitute for cubic inches."

[Pillock]

Yes there is, cubic centimetres which are delightfully base-10.

 

Anyway, my cynical side suggests that if ONLY Volkswagen were cheating the emissions thing, ONLY Volskwagen need to rethink their engines.

[scaryoldcortina]

"No replacement for displacement" would be the universal (and units free) truth here.

 

I bet someone has already used that as a title for an article on this subject.

 

 

edit - yup.

 

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/no-replacement-for-displacement-engines-are-about-to-grow-again/

[cort1977]

Interesting and shows the difference between optimising for a test and measuring real world performance.  

 

All manufacturers need to rethink their designs as all of them optimize for the tests which are now changing, supposedly only VW was actively writing code that changed the engine's behavior when a test was taking place.   One is legitimately engineering within the given design parameters the other is illegal.

 

Downsizing and the use of turbocharging are not going away, this is a minor bump in the general trend sadly.  

[Dick Longbridge]

My brother's old E36 BMW M3 Evo was pretty much the pinnacle of normally aspirated power. The fact that BMW squeezed 321bhp from a 3.2 NA lump, along with a 0-60 time of 5.6 seconds is engineering at its very best. As with most manufacturers, BMW seem to have regressed since.

As for diesels going back up in size, I'm surprised the kitten protectors haven't banished them to the Corncorde corner yet. I thought it was on the cards?

[SiC]

While people still want to buy diesels, manufacturers will do their best to come up with a way to fill that demand.

[steve_earwig]

Yes there is, cubic centimetres which are delightfully base-10.

 

As opposed to cubic inches, which are in base, erm... Or were you thinking about converting cubic inches to cubic feet? That would be (briefly) confusing, however I don't think there are many engines that big

[Pillock]

I'm not sure what my point was apart from Americans driving cars with "5.8L V8" badges on, but will quote the engine size in c.i

 

I rarely have a point.

 

I do think small engines have a place though. My 1.5D BMW is averaging 65mpg and I've seen it at over 80mpg on one trip.

[Rocket88]

Manufacturers COULD vastly increase reliability if they chose to do so by taking some fairly simple steps........they chose NOT to do so for fairly obvious reasons......................

[dollywobbler]

My brother's old E36 BMW M3 Evo was pretty much the pinnacle of normally aspirated power. The fact that BMW squeezed 321bhp from a 3.2 NA lump, along with a 0-60 time of 5.6 seconds is engineering at its very best. As with most manufacturers, BMW seem to have regressed since.

As for diesels going back up in size, I'm surprised the kitten protectors haven't banished them to the Corncorde corner yet. I thought it was on the cards?

 

I think the Honda Integra's 220bhp from 2-litres may trump that for specific output. Does take a touch longer for the 0-60 dash I'll concede, and doesn't sound as nice.

 

Sod combustion engines though. They seem dreadfully archaic once you've driven stuff with electric motors. I can't be the only one who thinks a modern, cackling diesel is akin to nails down a blackboard.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Manufacturers COULD vastly increase reliability if they chose to do so by taking some fairly simple steps........they chose NOT to do so for fairly obvious reasons......................

 

^^^ Let's hear where theyre going wrong then!

[RoadworkUK]

Is emissions testing not actual bollocks, anyway?

 

A 320d can achieve 61.4mpg and 120g/km, or so claims BMW. It can also do 0-62mph in 7,5 seconds, but you can guarantee it won't do the latter at the same time as the former. Cars seem to very get driven in a moderate way, such how these figures can be achieved.

 

Surely the only fair way to declare CO2 emissions is as a worst case scenario? Rather than measuring emissions in a laboratory based on some arcane simulated mix of urban start stop and open road driving, it should be measured under foot-to-the-floor, maximum attack conditions.

 

An engine should be taxed according to how much pollution it's capable of producing, not little it's hoped to produce.

[smellypoo]

I think the Honda Integra's 220bhp from 2-litres may trump that for specific output. Does take a touch longer for the 0-60 dash I'll concede, and doesn't sound as nice.

 

Sod combustion engines though. They seem dreadfully archaic once you've driven stuff with electric motors. I can't be the only one who thinks a modern, cackling diesel is akin to nails down a blackboard.

 

Along the same lines, Honda got 240bhp from 2 litres in their S2000 - I think it was supposed to be the highest specific output for a NA 2 litre engine in a production car (or something to that effect in the marketing). I think the Porsche GT3 and the Ferrari 458 beat it though, but I'd imagine they're out of reach for most of us. No idea what their emissions are, nor their fuel consumption.

 

I have yet to drive an electric car... I've been a passenger in a Prius a couple of times and it felt very strange when it's electric only at low speeds (at least I think that was what I experienced). I do agree that electric is the way forward for new cars (if the environmental impact of getting the raw materials can somehow be mitigated along with the reuse/recycling of those materials once the vehicle is end-of-life, admittedly I don't know much about that) - however I think we've been part of a culture for some time which treats things as disposable, make-do-and-mend seems to be looked upon with disdain by many which is a terrible shame. We have 'old' cars discarded because the cost of maintenance (not repair)  of an otherwise functional vehicle exceeds it's resale value in the current market.

[colino]

As the German Bundesrat is currently planning legislation to ban combustion engines by 2030, it's not as if any German/European manufacturer is going to green light anything innovative/expensive on current technology.  Think 1975 when Honda were working on ultra lean burn engines to combat smog in California and the protectionist US government said sod that, just bolt catalytic converters onto USA based, ancient technology, low efficiency V8s, you'll be fine.

[SiC]

Is emissions testing not actual bollocks, anyway?

 

A 320d can achieve 61.4mpg and 120g/km, or so claims BMW. It can also do 0-62mph in 7,5 seconds, but you can guarantee it won't do the latter at the same time as the former. Cars seem to very get driven in a moderate way, such how these figures can be achieved.

 

Surely the only fair way to declare CO2 emissions is as a worst case scenario? Rather than measuring emissions in a laboratory based on some arcane simulated mix of urban start stop and open road driving, it should be measured under foot-to-the-floor, maximum attack conditions.

 

An engine should be taxed according to how much pollution it's capable of producing, not little it's hoped to produce.

CO/2 is not the primary concern anymore. It affects the environment but the worldwide environment. NOX and other gasses are the ones they're really wanting to clamp down on as it causes public health problems. Current engine design produces a lot more of these noxious gasses, especially turbo cars on boost.

 

High NOX emissions iirc was one of the problems of ultra lean burn engines.

[dollywobbler]

As the German Bundesrat is currently planning legislation to ban combustion engines by 2030, it's not as if any German/European manufacturer is going to green light anything innovative/expensive on current technology.  Think 1975 when Honda were working on ultra lean burn engines to combat smog in California and the protectionist US government said sod that, just bolt catalytic converters onto USA based, ancient technology, low efficiency V8s, you'll be fine.

 

Funnily enough, Honda's old pal Rover was in exactly the same position in the UK. K-Series was meant to be a super-lean-burn engine, then suddenly had to be tweaked for a catalyst, with rather different requirements. This explains why it was an engine that seemed to have some design and implementation flaws from the outset. 

[pshome]

900 cubic feet...

 

[Tamworthbay]

My brother's old E36 BMW M3 Evo was pretty much the pinnacle of normally aspirated power. The fact that BMW squeezed 321bhp from a 3.2 NA lump, along with a 0-60 time of 5.6 seconds is engineering at its very best.

Not even close, there are several bikes out there around 1000cc and 180bhp, 150bhp per litre is unremarkable in the bike world. Any 0-60 time over 4 seconds is very slow for a sports bike.

 

Honda bike division tested a 2000cc V8 in the 80s that was putting out close to 400bhp in mild form and allegedly over 600bhp in wild cam form and a shit load of torque then they went slightly mad and made an oval piston v4 instead.

 

If you want to look how to make small powerful engines then bikes are the pinnacle of engineering, but most people want a sensible engine in a car and some thrash happy small motor isn't what most people like.

[lisbon_road]

I tried a Nissan Leaf once and was impressed.  

 

Many thoughts.  NOx is nasty stuff, but I do feel that we are getting obsessed with it.  Every TV/radio programme about emissions seems to focus on NOx alone.  I do wonder if the greater problem is particulates, especially the really small ones that get through particulate filters, catalytic converters and everything.  

 

As a confirmed shitter and somehow trying to be environmentally aware, I have an ancient car running on LPG with a relatively modern lpg system.  I would really love to get it on the latest emissions equipment and see whether it is actually good or not.  Burning a gas simply has to generate less particulates - that is clear - and I believe that propane is less harmful if it gets out for all sorts of reasons.  It should burn cooler than petrol or diesel as the carbon content is less so perhaps less NOx?  Reality is of course that I have no idea.

 

I vaguely heard something about metallic nano particles causing brain cancer.  Came from cars and 'general industry'.  If that's brake discs then even the electric ones will generate them, ffs what are we getting ourselves into!  Do we have any idea?

[RoadworkUK]

CO/2 is not the primary concern anymore. It affects the environment but the worldwide environment. NOX and other gasses are the ones they're really wanting to clamp down on as it causes public health problems. Current engine design produces a lot more of these noxious gasses, especially turbo cars on boost.

 

High NOX emissions iirc was one of the problems of ultra lean burn engines.

 

 

Agreed 100%, so taxing based on CO2 is ridiculous, no?

 

Whichever pollutant you're measuring, it's a more valid test if you measure it foot to the floor. Legislation should be enforced based on how polluting an engine has the potential to be, not based on ideal-world test conditions that might never be replicated in real life.

[RoadworkUK]

Not even close, there are several bikes out there around 1000cc and 180bhp, 150bhp per litre is unremarkable in the bike world. Any 0-60 time over 4 seconds is very slow for a sports bike.

 

Cars 'n bikes not really a legitimate comparison IMO.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

A CO2 tax is just a fuel economy tax innit, that seems a reasonable basis for a tax surely?

[Sir Snipes]

So does this mean new, more realistic on the road testing for MPG too? Or is it ok to misled about that because it's just the customer that is being lied to?

 

Wow, that sounded quite bitter......!

[Sir Snipes]

Not even close, there are several bikes out there around 1000cc and 180bhp, 150bhp per litre is unremarkable in the bike world. Any 0-60 time over 4 seconds is very slow for a sports bike.

 

Honda bike division tested a 2000cc V8 in the 80s that was putting out close to 400bhp in mild form and allegedly over 600bhp in wild cam form and a shit load of torque then they went slightly mad and made an oval piston v4 instead.

 

If you want to look how to make small powerful engines then bikes are the pinnacle of engineering, but most people want a sensible engine in a car and some thrash happy small motor isn't what most people like.

Yes but can a bike motor make the same amount of torque and do 200k miles before the top end needs a rebuild?

[tooSavvy]

Manufacturers COULD vastly increase reliability if they chose to do so by taking some fairly simple steps........they chose NOT to do so for fairly obvious reasons......................

 

Ha.. 2rite M8.

EG: a 'never needs replacing' endless toothchain belt, for the OHC... "we guarantee!! it will not fail before the engine is toast" ... we do not, however, make any claims as to the mileage required to generate said 'toast'

 

TS

[OwdChina]

They have reached the limits of downsizing - if engines get any smaller they will last as long as a UKIP leader.

 

Remember what Carroll Shelby said "There ain't no substitute for cubic inches."

 

 Also............" Too big is just about right "

[cort16]

I bet that Mondeo with the 1.0 ecoboost is shit.  My mate had an ecoboost Focus as a hire car when he came to visit a few weeks ago and he was moaning about it not being able to get out it's own way before I bored him to death explaining it had a 1.0 engine.

[UltraWomble]

Fooking brilliant

 

The sooner PSA condemn that utter shit heap 1.6 HDi to the bin and re-introduce the DW10 2.0HDi the better.