Buyer beware? advice please

[londonm]

Just ignore the dyslexic twat.

[Split_Pin]

I always use the polite phrase 'You do whatever you feel you have to'.

[Guest Breadvan72]

Both those links show the same car. 

[Guest Breadvan72]

Having read the advert, the seller seems to be in the clear, unless there was any discussion about airbags before the sale.

 

His advert is a bit knobby, with the reference to the bloke who bid but did not buy. The seller may have been righteously miffed, but the ad makes him come across as shouty git.

[fordperv]

I really like the term spunk-trumpet, as said tell him to tell the idiot to go forth in short jerky movements

[Pillock]

I am not a lawyer. Hence I'd just take a photo of the contents of my toilet bowl after a particularly satisfying morning poo, print it, frame it and post it his way.

 

But BV72's advice as a qualified type person in lawyery things might be betterer.

[Barry Cade]

An airbag light that doesn't come on at all is not an MOT failure- only if it remains on indicating a fault.  Airbags missing can only fail if it is obvious. Seatbelt pretensioners triggered is a fail if you can see them, as is a non working horn if you can't hear it. All can only be taken up with VOSA within 28 days of an MOT, so no avenue there..especially if someone has been fiddling...

 

Just because a vehicle has an MOT doesn't make it roadworthy....

[NorfolkNWeigh]

It's a pity the authorities don't have a method of identifying damaged cars that are likely to have post accident problems.

There could be a system of marking the logbook with letters or something; for example 'Cat C'.

[red5]

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/bl/mottestingmanualsandguides/mottestingmanualsandguides.htm

 

Section 5.4

[Barry Cade]

It's a pity the authorities don't have a method of identifying damaged cars that are likely to have post accident problems.

There could be a system of marking the logbook with letters or something; for example 'Cat C'.

5. Taking your car for a VIC test

When you take your vehicle for a Vehicle Identity Check (VIC) test the following must apply:

• the car must be roadworthy and able to be driven under its own power
• the car must have a valid MOT if it needs one (if you’re driving it to the VIC)
• the person driving the car must be insured
• the car must have front and rear number plates (if you’re driving it to the test)

You can get more information on the VIC test in the ‘Application for a Vehicle Identity Check’.

The test takes about 20 minutes and is a check of the car’s identity, not the quality of its repairs.

However, if the VIC inspector notices a serious defect which would make the car dangerous to drive they may issue a ‘prohibition notice’. This means the car can’t be driven until it’s made roadworthy and the prohibition notice is removed.

You can drive your car directly to and from a VIC without a tax disc.

If your car passes its VIC

You’ll get a VIC20 pass certificate and DVLA will be told automatically.

The VIC marker will then be taken off your vehicle record and the V5C registration certificate will be marked to show ‘substantially repaired and/or accident damaged; identity checked on dd/mm/ccyy’.

[Micrashed]

BUT, you dont have to have a VIC if the car doesnt change hands - My stolen / recovered Fiesta was never VIC'ed as I never sold it - I repaired it, re MOT'd it and drove it - battered body work, fag burns, finger print dust and all.

[retrogeezer]

£1900 quid for an 06 Focus Cabrio!! Email him back and tell him to drive carefully. 

[ukrainespacemonkey]

Hi guys, 

 

Thanks very much for all the advice, it has put my mind at ease slightly. I've included the transcript from point of contact until sale below. Apologies in advance for the terrible formatting it was quick and dirty. 

 

I was coming across as a shout-y twat to discourage people who bid and don't show and I admit it was a bit brash, but was very frustrated. 

 

As far as describing the car, I described every issue I was aware it had. Without removing the dashboard, I couldn't have known it didn't have airbags and if I did know would have advertised it as such. 

 

Cheers for all your help Guys.

 

 

 

From: pls2meetyou

To: ukrainespacemonkey

Subject: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 04-Feb-14 16:23:50 GMT

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Hi if this falls through i will give you more than 1900!

cheers!

 

- pls2meetyou

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 10-Feb-14 13:25:54 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

Car is still here if you are interested.

 

Cheers,

Michael.

ukrainespacemonkey

 

From: pls2meetyou

To: ukrainespacemonkey

Subject: Re: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 10-Feb-14 23:16:20 GMT

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Hi Michael

Thanks for letting me know! I have found another cat D one (but not bt it yet).

I had not realised you are in renfrewshire ?? I am in Cardiff so a long way away to drive (7+hrs on train £100+ and 8+hrs+10gals)! but I always keep my word and don't mess people about so if the price is right I am interested. As said I would def give you over the 1900 but guess that is not enough so what would you take for it? If ok I can give a £100 paypal dep straight away to show I am not messing and come on train or plane this week / pay cash if the price is ok.

Cheers

Graham

 

- pls2meetyou

 

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 11-Feb-14 10:06:34 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

Hi Graham,

 

My mindset from the beginning has been that anything over £2000 would be a bonus. I've 'sold' it twice on eBay now and both were no-shows so its at the stage were I'd prefer a genuine buyer over profit. When is suitable for you to collect, provided your happy with everything.

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

 

Hi Michael

Well i understand as have been there myself - ebay has deteriorated so much inlast few yrs. There is no enforcement at all with messers. They should force people to deposit 10% of there bid which they would lose if they won and didn't pay. Anyway as said I am genuine so if we deal we will deal. I would give you 2k cash (with 100 or more dep straight away) and could collect later this week or early next provided the car would drive back ok.

I am not expecting a new car so expect some small blemishes so if ok can you confirm the cat d repair is done ok, it is in good driving condition, tax / mot etc? Also could you meet me with at train stn or airport if i come up? It will be a bit expensive for me but am up for it if price is right. Cheers Graham xxxxxxxxx

 

- pls2meetyou

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 11-Feb-14 12:08:01 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

Hi Graham

 

The Cat C was before I bought the car but Im led to believe it was a crash down one side that damaged several of the panels. If you look very closely you can see differences from one side to the other. The car does run and I've had it down to chichester and back a couple of weeks ago to pick up another car and previously had been using it every day for work (I'm alternating at the moment to try and keep the mileage down as much as possible). I've never had any engine trouble in spite of the MAF issue. It could be doing with a service as I didn't get it serviced last year at MOT because I was hoping again to have it sold then. There is a couple of bits of trim on the inside of the car that don't sit quite true, I assume again because of the crash. Tax is up at the end of March and MOT is September. Ive only previously had minor MOT trouble, but if you look up the MOT history you can see there was a lot of work carried out to the car to get it back on the road, prior to me taking ownership.

 

I dont mind picking you up from station or airport, both are 10-15 minute drive from my house. If you require anything further let me know.

 

Regards,

Michael

 

From: pls2meetyou

To: ukrainespacemonkey

Subject: Re: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 11-Feb-14 12:26:51 GMT

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Ok Mike

Sounds ok. I do know they are never the same but that is reflected in price. Are the differences in colour or on panels lining up? Anyway as long as it is not a pig and gets me home that's fine! Can you give the V5 ref no. So i can check the mileage and mot history? If that is ok i can give you a deposit via paypal or bank transfer this aft.

thanks

Graham

 

 

- pls2meetyou

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 11-Feb-14 12:47:36 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

 

The differences are in the panel alignment, more so at the gaps between the panels varying, again, it's a case of if you know what you're looking for you'll see it. Colour matches fine.

 

V5 Reference: 9120 5533 5259 9645

 

Paypal is fine for deposit. I'll end the listing upon receipt of it, provided you're happy with everything.

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

- ukrainespacemonkey

 

From: pls2meetyou

To: ukrainespacemonkey

Subject: Re: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 11-Feb-14 13:21:34 GMT

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Ok what is the reg no. Ccant quite make it out?

 

- pls2meetyou

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 11-Feb-14 13:38:08 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

It is PF56 NUK

 

- ukrainespacemonkey

 

From: pls2meetyou

To: ukrainespacemonkey

Subject: Re: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 11-Feb-14 14:13:39 GMT

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Hi

 

Can you check the doc ref no? It should not be as many digits. It needs to be off the v5 not the green slip or reminder?

 

- pls2meetyou

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: pls2meetyou has sent a message

Sent Date: 11-Feb-14 14:20:50 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

Ill send it tonight the V5 is in the the house. that ref was from a dvla email. thought it was the right one.

 

- ukrainespacemonkey

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Ok i have done a hpi and that is ok. If you send me your paypal add when u send the DRN and i will put the dep to you provided the mot / mileage is ok.

Cheers

 

- pls2meetyou

Reply in your email program or through My Messages

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: ukrainespacemonkey has sent a message

Sent Date: 11-Feb-14 18:09:49 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

hi graham.

 

V5C 1307 843 9148

Can you send me your number, and ill txt you my paypal address. ebay wont let me send it across this.

 

cheers

michael

 

Ok MOT check seems ok

My mobile is xxxxxxxxx

Or you could send me an invoice <xxxx>

 

- pls2meetyou

Reply in your email program or through My Messages

 

Respond Now

 

Hi Michael

Invoice paid by Paypal

I will have a look at booking a train or plane up there and advise when I can make it!

I cannot do the weekend as I am away but maybe this Thursday / Friday or possibly next Mon / Tues at the very latest. Can you make any of those days?

As said I am hoping you can meet me with the car at Glasgow int airport? I could then run you home if required.

There are various flights / arrivals times early and late but could you make it in the day time say 3 4 or 5 pm or maybe early about 8:00?

Cheers

Graham

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: ukrainespacemonkey has sent a message

Sent Date: 11-Feb-14 23:04:43 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

Hi Graham,

 

Received deposit fine. Friday is probably your best bet. I can do early morning at 8 or I can get away early and pick you up at 4 or 5 Just whatever is easiest.

 

Regards,

Michael

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: ukrainespacemonkey has sent a message

Sent Date: 12-Feb-14 09:03:18 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

Hi Graham,

 

I can do saturday no problem.

 

Cheers,

Michael.

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Ok good will have a think and make some enquiries at work / sort out a time.

Thanks -be intouch asap.

Graham

 

- pls2meetyou

Reply in your email program or through My Messages

 

Respond Now

 

From: pls2meetyou

To: ukrainespacemonkey

Subject: Re: ukrainespacemonkey has sent a message

Sent Date: 12-Feb-14 16:14:12 GMT

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Hi Michael

Just to let you know I am having a bit of trouble re-arranging this weekend. May be ok but I cant confirm until tomorrow lunchtime but if not would it be possible for the following Sat 22nd? 11:00?

Just to confirm I want the car and would be happy to increase my dep if u like? Sorry about this - it is just work and other commitments but I am clear then!

Thanks

GrAham

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: ukrainespacemonkey has sent a message

Sent Date: 12-Feb-14 16:45:26 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

Hi Graham,

 

If it's easier to come the 22nd that's fine by me and don't worry about the deposit.

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

- ukrainespacemonkey

 

HI Michael

Flight is booked for 22nd - arrival is 11:00. Give me your mobile no. And i will text u just before boarding 9:20. I then suggest you wait around 11:00 a few miles from the airport (Glascow int) and I can phone you when l arrive. I can then meet you at short term pick up?

Again thanks for the help here

regards

Graham

 

Thanks for that

I would prefer to come 15th but will confirm tomorrow

Thanks again

Graham

 

- pls2meetyou

Reply in your email program or through My Messages

 

Respond Now

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: ukrainespacemonkey has sent a message

Sent Date: 13-Feb-14 17:02:55 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

Hi Graham,

My mobile number is xxxxxxxxx. My house is only 2 miles from the airport so I can leave at 11 and be there in a few moments anyway. I'll need to refresh my memory of where short term pick-up is as it might not be the best place to get you. I'll confirm this and let you know.

 

Regards,

Michael.

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Wow that is convenient!

Seems like it was meant to happen! Can you believe the air fare is only a bit more than the train and i am 2 miles from cardiff airport!

G

 

- pls2meetyou

Reply in your email program or through My Messages

 

Respond Now

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: ukrainespacemonkey has sent a message

Sent Date: 20-Feb-14 10:16:24 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

Hi Graham,

 

I hope you're still on for this weekend. I've attached a copy of the car park map for glasgow airport It will probably be easiest to pick you up in car park one as the pick up zone is within a large multi-story carpark. If I remember the layout correctly, car park one should be to your right as you leave the terminal building. If you give me a phone once you have landed I can be there in few minutes.

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

Respond Now

 

From: pls2meetyou

To: ukrainespacemonkey

Subject: Re: ukrainespacemonkey has sent a message

Sent Date: 20-Feb-14 13:04:40 GMT

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Hi Michael

Thanks for the map and yes should be all ok. I have the flight booked arrival at 10:55 so hopefully out about 11:05 but will ring when in the terminal.

Could you just confirm you have the V5, tyres are ok and will leave the tax on it so I can drive it back! I know it is 'as seen' and ex cat D so not going to pick faults but just wondered if you knew what original damage it had had any serv hist and how long you have had it?

See u Sat

Rgds Graham

 

From: ukrainespacemonkey

To: pls2meetyou

Subject: Re: ukrainespacemonkey has sent a message

Sent Date: 20-Feb-14 14:31:57 GMT

 

Dear pls2meetyou,

 

Hi Graham

 

The car is taxed, the V5 is present and the tyres have more than a sufficient amount of tread to get you home several times. I don't have anything in the way of service history but it was serviced in September 2012 and is overdue for another one. I've had the car over 2 years. When I purchased the car I was told it was damage across several panels due to a car crash which were repaired before I took ownership of the car.

 

Cheers,

Michael.

 

- ukrainespacemonkey

 

Dear ukrainespacemonkey,

 

Michael

that's all fine and as expected. Thanks. It's a long drive but will take it steady - Cheers Graham

 

- pls2meetyou

Reply in your email program or through My Messages

 

Respond Now

[Sloth in a bowl]

Given that the buyer has bid on multiple cars in the last two days, it looks like he is a trader and not some poor 'woe is me, family man with aged mother, tale of tragedy, etc'.

 

Basically he knew what he was getting into before buying the car and a wall of silence/feck off will soon see him spending his time hassling some other easier prey.

[Guest Breadvan72]

I will PM you a suggested reply to the buyer in the morning.  Silence is not a good idea.

[ukrainespacemonkey]

Thanks again.

[CortinaDave]

I got the "you could have killed my children" line off a buyer when I sold him a 45 year old vauxhall cresta and one of the headlights packed in on his 200 mile drive home.

 

I told him to FRO.

[martybabes]

I will PM you a suggested reply to the buyer in the morning.  Silence is not a good idea.

 

 

I wouldn't mind a look at your suggested reply, if you don't mind.  I confirm I do not act for the buyer!

[Guest Breadvan72]

Suggested reply.  Only send this if the facts it asserts are true.

 

 

Dear  yyyy

 

I have received your email dated xxxx.  I have taken legal advice, and I do not accept responsibility for the alleged defects of which you complain.    

 

I am not a trade seller of cars, and sold the car privately without any express or implied warranty as to its condition. You agreed to buy the car having inspected and tested it [CHECK - did buyer test drive?] .

 

I was not aware of any problem with the airbags.  The car’s MoT certificate was issued by a reputable MoT test centre.    I add that a problem with an airbag does not in itself make a car dangerous, but I reiterate that I did not know of any such problem.  I also did not know of any problem with the seat belt tensioners, horn or lights.   If I had known of any such problem, I would have mentioned it to you.

 

I therefore reject your suggestion that I should take the car back or make any payment for work to be done on the car. 

 

 

[dollywobbler]

Interesting that the buyer twice says it was a Cat D, even after the seller confirmed it was a Cat C as per the original advert. Hope he goes away.

[Cavcraft]

'Anyway as long as it is not a pig and gets me home that's fine!'

 

 

I don't think that's going to help the buyer's cause, somehow. Now, I know Breadvan has kindly sewn this up for you, but I have to say without his sterling advice I'd have found the difference between a Cat C and a non-recorded one (which I assume would have been a good few hundred quid) then suggested that when he gave you the difference between the two, you'd refund him his shitty £200 for the airbags.

[drum]

@ corsaviour - But it is cat c so I'm so sure that would work.

 

I'm liking the free legal advice by BV - I can't do smilies so [thumbs up]

[Jim Bell]

Breadvan exposed as Legal Eagle.

Prepare for barrage of Connifer War advice/parking fine/domestic violence advice request emails!

[Guest Breadvan72]

Well, they are called Leylandii, you know. 

[ukrainespacemonkey]

Hi Breadvan, 

 

Thank you very much for your reply. To clarify a few points; the horn has been relocated to one side of the steering column and does work, which I'm 99% positive I told him when he was inspecting. The lights do work and go off with the ignition, and he didn't test-drive it although I did offer. He refused to test-drive it on the basis that he didn't know his way back from the airport, I did tell him it was a straight road but he still refused. As far as inspection is concerned we spent a good 20 minutes going round the car showing him all the things that I'd mentioned and at no point did I try to rush him away or force him into buying the car. Also - when he mentions that he discovered the airbag light was not functioning at "the bottom of the road". I left the house about 40 minutes after I sold him the car and seen him at the bottom of the road, where I spoke to him and enquired if everything was alright, where he made no mention if the airbag warning light not functioning, just that he was trying to operate his sat-nav and gave him directions to the motorway.

 

Thanks again,

[scruff]

Chancer by the sounds... a trader running by the seat of his pants with no real clue what he's doing.

 

Breadvan - top work, nice to have "real" advice from Shite-Aid on something like this.

[Bren]

What did the balloon expect? £1900 for a focus CC and then complains that it isn't what he expected.

 

Personally regarding the air bag issue I would send him a couple of whoopie cushions and tell him to get fucked.

 

It's dickheads like this that are making it a pain in the arse selling a car privately.

[Guest Breadvan72]

Revised draft:

 

Dear  yyyy

 

I have received your email dated xxxx.  I have taken legal advice, and I do not accept responsibility for the alleged defects of which you complain.    

 

I am not a trade seller of cars, and sold the car privately without any express or implied warranty as to its condition. You agreed to buy the car having inspected it.  I invited you to test drive the car but you declined to do so.  I pointed out to you the defects that I was aware of.    You may recall that about forty minutes after you had taken the car, we spoke again while you were paused near my house to set your sat nav, and at that time you said nothing about the airbag light.

 

I was not aware of any problem with the airbags.  The car’s MoT certificate was issued by a reputable MoT test centre, and the car had been through two MoTs whilst I owned it.    I add that a problem with an airbag does not in itself make a car dangerous, but I reiterate that I did not know of any such problem.  I also did not know of any problem with the seat belt tensioners.   If I had known of any such problem, I would have mentioned it to you.  The lights were working when I last used them.  They go off when you turn the ignition off. The horn was also working when I last used it.  The horn press is located to one side of the steering wheel.

 

I therefore reject your suggestion that I should take the car back or make any payment for work to be done on the car. 

[wuvvum]

OK, related question time.

 

The above applies to a private sale of a vehicle.  However, the SOGA applies differently to trade sales.

 

In the event of a dispute, when a buyer claims a seller is a trader, is the onus on the buyer to prove that the seller is a trader, or on the trader to prove that he isn't? 

 

I think this may be a pertinent point for a few people on here - there are several of us who get through cars at a rate of knots and therefore end up selling quite a few every year; most probably do it for "fun", and don't make much money out of it (if any at all), but as far as I can tell the legal definition of a trader seems to be a bit of a grey area.

[Rocket88]

OK, related question time.

 

The above applies to a private sale of a vehicle.  However, the SOGA applies differently to trade sales.

 

In the event of a dispute, when a buyer claims a seller is a trader, is the onus on the buyer to prove that the seller is a trader, or on the trader to prove that he isn't? 

 

I think this may be a pertinent point for a few people on here - there are several of us who get through cars at a rate of knots and therefore end up selling quite a few every year; most probably do it for "fun", and don't make much money out of it (if any at all), but as far as I can tell the legal definition of a trader seems to be a bit of a grey area.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Make money out of it? Since when did we start doing that?