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1980 Austin Princess


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Posted

We were wondering about that.  The manual is a bit confusing because it says you remove the clutch housing first before you can do that and implies you don't need to strip any of it to get at the clutch.  It can be done, it's only a few bolts.

Posted

I did this job years ago and I found it to be a right shitehawk. I am sure you have to take the cover off and remove some colossal nut off the end of the lower idler gear shaft or something. Then the housing comes off over that shaft (meaning you have to slide the casing 8" horizontally before it can be removed) Actually I think my Landcrab clutch change is on the tat blog somewhere, that will show you what you have to do I think.

Posted

I can get the lateral movement by dropping the engine a bit so that shouldn't be an issue.  Landcrabs are on the B lump but the same basic gearbox design, aren't they?

Posted

I used to just pull the engine out as per 1800 Landcrab. The 2200 is easier as it uses the Mini set up with a slim clutch cover but the 1800/1700 has an arse about face set up. Did my last one in 1989. The 2200 has the drop gears between the block and the flywheel as per Mini, the B and O Series have the drop gears outside the flywheel. Weird set up.

Posted

Part two of the clutch change.  This isn't a difficult job, per se, just a frustrating one.  It would be easier if I could devote a full day to the job really, rather than having to steal occasional hours.  Decided it was sensible to drain the oil.  Again, the manual was a little vague on this front and suggested "a quantity" would come out once the end housing was removed.  Glad I did drain the oil, it's a bit sludgy and will benefit from a change.  Thanks to suggestions from folks on the threads I keep on various fora, going was much easier today because Mike and I actually knew what to attack.  Before long, the drive gear cover was removed fairly easily, revealing the strange remote gear drive thing.

25762344648_9de82cc0c2_b.jpg20170111-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Worryingly, the large lower nut looked a bit chewed.  As expected, the monkeys have been in here too.  Everywhere I go on this car some moron has been in with bodge and danger.

24765384077_e9942212e7_b.jpg20170111-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

With the cover off it was possible to see the monkeys had been chewing on the bearing slot too.  Urgh.  You can just see the nibbling of a chisel or screwdriver next to the bearing above the oil blob.

38925338664_fed872f978_b.jpg20170111-03 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Oh well!  Next was undoing the big chewed up nut which proved problematic because it's enormous, a Whitworth 1 (1" 11/16ths from memory).  Luckily, Mike's dad is a bit of a hoarder and there was an enormous Whitworth 1 ring spanner on the rack which allowed us to undo the nut once it had been cracked off with a comedically oversized  pipe wrench that needed two hands to weild.  Finally we could test the knowledge I'd been given that you can wiggle the housing out without removing the engine from the car.  First remove the gears you need to.  There's also one nut in a deep recess that we nearly missed because it wasn't where expected one to be.

38925338334_aa401c8836_b.jpg20170111-05 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Then a bit of a wiggle and HOORAY the housing is free.

25762345058_667060094f_b.jpg20170111-04 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Unfortunately, I was misled.  You cannot simply wiggle it free and those that told me some time ago that you could were mistaken.  It's close, no doubt about that, but not close enough.

25762344928_45970e3d4b_b.jpg20170111-06 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

 It should come out without removing the engine and disconnecting absolutely everything though .  If we undo the other two engine mounts and remove the oil filter (I need to put a new filter on anyway, so this isn't a problem) we should be able to drop the engine far enough without having to disconnect everything.

38925337684_940680f660_b.jpg20170111-09 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Having a look underneath highlighted what I presume to be antiroll bar that needed unfastening so the gear selector rods didn't get stuck on it when the engine is dropped.

38925338154_609d0722a2_b.jpg20170111-07 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Also had to disconnect the middle exhaust brackets which are already cracking even though they were new last April.  This should allow the exhaust enough free movement  so that I don't need to faff about with the manifold clamps.

25762344778_12cd596530_b.jpg20170111-08 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

That was as far as I could go as my alarm beeped meaning my time was up for today.  Tomorrow I'm hoping to get in and  undo the two engine mounts and lower the engine a few inches so the chassis leg isn't  stopping the bellhousing coming off.  After that the actual clutch change is probably going to be really easy and it will just take a while to get all the bits put back on where they live again.

Posted

Blimey, what a carry-on! Well done for your perseverance with it!

 

Are you going to look to replace the chewed-up bits or are they just mildly damaged?

Posted

They're serviceable so I'll just reuse them.  I can't imagine trying to get hold of a Whitworth 1 sized nut is going to be particularly easy.

Posted

....I can't imagine trying to get hold of a Whitworth 1 sized nut is going to be particularly easy.

 

Any good?

  • Like 3
Posted

That isn't an anti-roll bar (Dr. Moulton would turn in his grave) it is a tie bar that reinforces the lower suspension arm mounts against one another: rather like a strut-brace but in tension rather than compression.

Posted

Jeez, what a palaver. What would the trainees at Mr Clutch make of this?

Posted

Jeez, what a palaver. What would the trainees at Mr Clutch make of this?

You see, that's just the sort of shit I'd do if I won the euromillions! (so I could pay for it if they surprisingly did manage to do it)

 

That and buy a ropey xm, or gooner 2 ph2 or similar, rock up to the main dealer and say "do everything"

  • Like 8
Posted

They're serviceable so I'll just reuse them.  I can't imagine trying to get hold of a Whitworth 1 sized nut is going to be particularly easy.

 

Is the thread definately Whitworth? It could it be a UNF / UNC thread that the whitworth spanner was just coincedentally a good fit?

 

There are a number of spaners sizes that are interchangable between AF and Whitworth. For example 1/4" Whitworth is an equivilent to 1/2" AF.

 

I don't think many mass produced cars from the mid 70's routinely used whitworth threads. As they were mainly replaced by UNF / UNC in the early 1960's. (Naturally British leyland may turn out to be an exception!)

Posted

Is the thread definately Whitworth? It could it be a UNF / UNC thread that the whitworth spanner was just coincedentally a good fit?

 

There are a number of spaners sizes that are interchangable between AF and Whitworth. For example 1/4" Whitworth is an equivilent to 1/2" AF.

 

I don't think many mass produced cars from the mid 70's routinely used whitworth threads. As they were mainly replaced by UNF / UNC in the early 1960's. (Naturally British leyland may turn out to be an exception!)

1/4 whit is not a good sub for 1/2 AF...........but your point very true.

 

The one I always remember is the older truck trailer wheel nuts which were 1 and 5/16AF which is 3/4 whit. Also same size as most A series crank pully.

Posted

1/4 whit is not a good sub for 1/2 AF...........but your point very true.

 

The one I always remember is the older truck trailer wheel nuts which were 1 and 5/16AF which is 3/4 whit. Also same size as most A series crank pully.

 

Fair enough, my Knowledge on AF / whitworth spanner interchange might not be good as I thought! 

 

I tend to use new nuts and bolts and old but cared for Britool spanners so my experience of what works with what may not be universal.

Posted

I wouldn't have considered Whitworth either except for the fact the book states it to be that size and the spanner does fit.  The Imperial size is peculiar too.  I understood Whitworth fell out of regular use in the 1950s and with this gearbox having its engineering roots in the 1960s (Landcrab, Maxi, etc.) or possibly extremely late 1950s (release of the Mini) it's probably unlikely to find anything of that type in here.  Having said that, the rest of the engine bay does use a mix of predominately Metric fixings with one or two Imperial bits thrown in so who knows?  Perhaps BL just had a surfeit of Whitworth nuts left over, perhaps they're not Whitworth but something that's an exact match for the head and a different thread?

 

Safest to re-use the original since it's good enough to do so I reckon.

  • Like 1
Posted

The O-series engine has metric nuts and bolts but the gearbox is Landcrab technology, so 1960's designed to go under a B-series, and is therefore imperial. Brilliant innit!!!

 

I would use the nut again defo, a bit of chisel damage is nowt to worry about on a nut that size.

Posted

Clutch Change Part Three.

Mr B put it best when he said "I did this job years ago and I found it to be a right shitehawk."  He was not wrong.  The first time you do a job always takes the longest because you're learning how to do it, in the future I'm pretty sure I could shave a couple of hours off  the time spent simply because I know what needs coming out now and what to expect.

 

So, to recap, to do the clutch on the Princess you have to drain the oil and the coolant first.  No really.  The engine has to come out whatever you do so you might as well do these jobs now because it's unavoidable.  Then you unfasten everything that joins the engine to the car with the exception of the driveshafts, those you can leave alone happily.  Princess is due a proper oil change anyway and even though the coolant was done less than a year ago, it too was looking ready for a refresh and now is as good a time as any to do it.  Here's the oil that came out, all 6 litres or so of it.

24783306057_572b55e237_b.jpg20180112-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Because Mike and I were still learning, we thought there was a chance we could get enough movement by removing one engine mount and bracket that was fouling the clutch housing, so we did that first.

38755580165_d6b355732c_b.jpg20180112-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

It didn't help enough and we wasted time faffing about with engine angles before giving that up as a bad job.  Really frustratingly close though!

24783305927_85d6eb5670_b.jpg20180112-03 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

24783305617_f65c8202ca_b.jpg20180112-04 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Instead we admitted defeat and resigned ourselves to having to pull the engine.  That meant disconnecting the coolant hoses and draining the coolant, disconnecting the rest of the exhaust, unbolting the remote gear selector box, the vacuum line for the servo, removing the carburettor and air cleaner from the manifold  and disconnecting the speedo cable.  We also removed the radiator, normally you wouldn't have to but I have a Rover fan fitted on the opposite side to standard and the motor was catching on the oil fill pipe and distributor.  I've got a spare original fan I'm going to test and if it's good, I'll fit that in the stock location because it's tidier and should be perfectly effective enough, my last original one was until it got all out of shape and ate its own fan blades.

 

There's enough articulation in the driveshafts to safely and carefully lower the engine on the jack without disconnecting the driveshafts  so we did that.  We were concerned we'd have to remove the driveshafts too, which is even more work that seems excessive just for a clutch change.

24783305407_fa445b8df0_b.jpg20180112-05 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

38755581195_b63987c0a8_b.jpg20180112-06 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

With all that dropped down I can get to a lot of the greasy bits of the engine bay I couldn't before and get those cleaned up properly.  I can also get the bits of the engine degreased that I couldn't previously get to so that will also cut down on the amount of unpleasant road grime and oil sludge that's on the outside of the engine in places.  Discovered that one of the leaks looks to be the oil pressure sender so I'm going to remove and reseal that to hopefully get rid of the messiest leak the car has.  The distributor O ring is leaking again too, which is really annoying because it's a chore to replace and I can't find the new gear selector seals I bought so I'm going to have to order another set, at which point the set I bought will undoubtedly turn up.

 

Happily, dropping the engine out the bottom like this meant the clutch housing came off really easily and there's plenty of access to get at the clutch and fixings so it shouldn't be a nightmare to bolt back together again.

38755580885_2cdb7d83fa_b.jpg20180112-07 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

38755580505_53a31e6a59_b.jpg20180112-08 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Then my alarm beeped so it was time-up for today.  I'm hoping to get in on the weekend and give things a thorough clean and degrease and potentially get everything back together Monday/Tuesday since a lot of it is really a job for two people if you want to do it safely and in some cases it's just easier when there's two pairs of hands, particularly for things like the engine mounts which are a bit awkward to get at.  Until the next update, here's where we leave things.

 

38755579955_5f99204caa_b.jpg20180112-09 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

Posted

A nice clean up,prep,lay all the bits out ready over weekend will make the reverse of the above much nicer next week :-)

Posted

One of the things I have long liked about the Princess & Ambassador is that when* you see one on the road, driving toward you, it is possible to tell if it is manual or automatic from the shape of the transmission sump. If you could see a pair of steel pipes at the offside by the sump, then it had power steering.

 

**They really were a very common sight for twenty odd years.

Posted

Excellent work on this chap - I can see it's frustrating and rewarding at the same time!

Posted

Great thread as ever - just been catching up. Excellent work on the suspension especially, and looking forward to imminent victory in the Battle of the Clutch.

 

One of the things I have long liked about the Princess & Ambassador is that when* you see one on the road, driving toward you, it is possible to tell if it is manual or automatic from the shape of the transmission sump. If you could see a pair of steel pipes at the offside by the sump, then it had power steering.

Olympic class levels of geekery here. Massive respect.

Posted

What a right arse of a job this is. Though it's been fun figuring stuff out.

 

Never in all the vehicles I've worked on have I had to drop/remove an engine to change a clutch.

 

GT6 was the next worst that I've done I'd say as you pull the gearbox up and through the car cabin. Making sure to spill oil from the leaky overdrive all over your carpet, naturally.

Posted

hahahahahaha  you forgot about the four weeks we had to spend doing the Xantia clutch.  I think it was four weeks.  I'm pretty sure that job aged us all by at least ten years, even the people reading the updates.

Posted

I have failed to do anything on this at all this weekend, been knocked down with Winter Lurg  #4a.  What I have done is found and ordered a complete bottom end gasket and seal set, new gear selector rod seals (because the ones I do have seem to have fallen into the Sock Dimension) and yet another pair of mirrors that were an impulsive purchase because they just might be less hassle than trying to get the last new pair I bought to actually fit the car in a way that I can actually see them when driving.  I do love my  black wing mirrors but they're a proper arse when you're trying to do anything in the engine bay that involves leaning over the side, like changing the clutch, so door mirrors would be mor e betterer providing they're not the rubbish originals.

  • Like 2
Posted

good work

 

re that oil pressure sender, on da staaag it is a tapered thread, i.e. over tightening can crack the alloy transfer plate that it screws into. 

 

while you have good access double check that it hasnt been over tightened and busted something.

Posted

I have failed to do anything on this at all this weekend, been knocked down with Winter Lurg  #4a.  What I have done is found and ordered a complete bottom end gasket and seal set, new gear selector rod seals (because the ones I do have seem to have fallen into the Sock Dimension) and yet another pair of mirrors that were an impulsive purchase because they just might be less hassle than trying to get the last new pair I bought to actually fit the car in a way that I can actually see them when driving.  I do love my  black wing mirrors but they're a proper arse when you're trying to do anything in the engine bay that involves leaning over the side, like changing the clutch, so door mirrors would be mor e betterer providing they're not the rubbish originals.

 

Love the reference to "The Sock Dimension.'  Quantum Physics really needs to bring this on board. Unlike some of the silly other dimensional stuff they've invented to make the mathematics work, the Sock Dimension is a real and observable effect.

 

I've never liked clutch changes on front drive transverse engined cars but someone at BL obviously studied the known problems of access in order to incorporate as many as possible in the Princess.  The Citroen CX is another one which will leave you hairless and broke.

  • Like 2

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