Grace, Pace and Space ..even more so than the Jaguar.

[Bfg]

Jaguars  from all eras do tend to have something rather special about them. But fashion-tax isn't one of those things.  No, a genuine Autoshiter  appreciates those car's virtues but doesn't need to prove him or her-self with a snarling key fob slung face upright onto the bar.   We prefer the less ostentatious (..a very big word for this time of day !) and are even prepared to sacrifice hours, upon hours of kneeling before said beast cleaning its chromed wire wheels.  Similarly we don't need a motor which is twice the size of the next mans, we're very happy with something a little more modest ..wihich offers better access.  

In the good old days, before decent rust proofing and stainless steel exhaust systems, LED lighting and Sat nav's - it was often said that Bank robbers preferred Jaguars  as their get-away cars,  while others suggested a better class of jeweller prefer the somewhat more nimble Daimler.  Whether this was true or not - I'm too young to know ..but there is surely an element of truth in it.  And certainly our finest constabulary did use the Daimler SP250 with its 2.5ltr V8 engine to combat very naughty motorist of the day.  

In truth, during the 1960's there weren't many production cars that could top 125mph, to keep up with a Triumph T120 or Triton cafe-racer motorcycles.   Irony upon irony, is that the  Daimler's 2 1⁄2 ltr short-stroke V8 140bhp hemi, produced between 1959 & 1969, was designed by Edward Turner. This being the very same most capable & talented Edward Turner - who was resonsible for the Triumph parallel twin motorcycle engine ..apparently It takes one to catch one.   Oddly, Turner is best remembered as being a Triumph Motorcycle designer, and yet Daimler was owned by Triumph's competitor.. BSA.  as it happens, corporate politics, inflated egos and bad tempers had senior Engineers and even Heads of Division move from one company to another and then back again, as if children on a merry-go-round. 

Sir Bernard Docker, Chairman of the BSA group, who had done so much to build Daimler's post war status, had fallen out-of-favour with the aristocratic classes, and In 1956 BSA's committee voted he be replaced by Jack Sangster. Jack was first & foremost a motorcycle man, and under his leadership the BSA and Ariel motorcycle division grew stronger than ever, but the Daimler brand had shrunk to, in 1959–1960, represent just 15% of BSA group's turnover. Their management were open to negotiation when Jaguar needed factory space and machine shop facilities to expand their own production. And so Jaguar bought 'Daimler' in May 1960. Amongst other very worthwhile divisions, along with it came the Sp250 and Edward Turner's potent little V8 engine. 

Where am I going with all this ?   Well, I've just bought an old & rather scruffy Daimler V8.   No, it's not the fibreglass-bodied droop-nosed SP250 (aka Dart ) gentleman's sports car, but it does utilise the very same power plant. The title of this forum topic 'Grace, Pace and Space'  gives a clue.  

Launched late in 1962 - the Daimler 2 1⁄2 saloon car was an up-market but less sporty Mk.II Jaguar. The marketing of Daimler was aimed at the sporting gentleman, whereas Jaguar's racing heritage and popular press was more appealing to many a closet maverick.  Daimler's dealers had called for a new mid-range, more fashionable model to replace the Daimler Conquest, and so Jaguar obliged by dropping the exceptionally smooth V8 2 1⁄2 ltr  into their new Mk.II rolling body-shell.   For Jaguar who were always keen to increase production numbers for sake of reducing unit cost - the Daimler was easy. Aside from the Daimler engine, along with a twin exhaust system and automatic gearbox, the car was simply a MK.2 Jaguar ..badge engineered with the scrolled D.  The quality of wood veneer, leather and carpets was always best for the Daimler and its standard specification included most things that were optional on its cheaper sibling.  Beautifully opalescent paint finishes, for example, were very much more Daimler than Jaguar. The Daimler (automatic) was road tested to 112 mph, whereas the Jaguar 2.4 couldn't quite manage the ton. Even today, that isn't something Jaguar enthusiasts boast about, but even back in the day - very few (contemporary) road tests of the 2.4 were granted.!  Later on, this engine recieved the straight-port head off the xk150 3.4 litre, which boosted its performance to 133bhp ..so close to that of the Daimler V8. The Daimler engine was never uprated.

Edward Turner's 2 1⁄2 litre V8 (note ; always referred to as the 2 1⁄2 litre, rather than Jaguar's rather vulgar decimalisation of 2-point-4, 3-point-4, or 3-point-8 ) is a short-block engine with 90 degree cylinder banks. Its block is in cast iron (which is very stable) and the cylinder heads (interchangeable / not handed) are cast alumnium (much lighter than iron).  The two rocker covers and volumous sump are likewise in alumnium.  The broad V8 layout is both good for balancing vibration and it has a low centre of gravity. The space inbetween the two cylinder heads accomdates the single camshaft, the twin SU carburettors and their twisty inlet manifold (again in alumnium), the distributor and the dynamo (later cars have an alternator). The exhaust manifolds simply drop down either outside of the block. Being a short stroke engine (76mm bore x 70mm stroke) the engine isn't overly wide, and with its short length it's compact and relatively lightweight. Access for maintenance is then easier than with jaguar's straight six.

The Jaguar straight six, which I personally see as being one of the most beautiful engines ever designed, is long, tall and heavy.  It's not as smooth (vibration) as the V8, and capacity-for-capacity is not so powerful nor as torquey.  And the weight distribution of the straight six cars is (detrimentally) further forward. That forwardness also makes removing its sump awkward, as the front suspension subframe has to be dropped first.  Btw the Jaguars, by necessity, have stiffer front suspension springs than the Daimler, and although each have anti-roll-bars the Daimler offers the more compliant ride. The brakes on the Jaguar and Daimler are the same - disc on all four wheels, which are excellent.  The Jaguar 2.4 has an inch shorter stroke than its big brothers, and so is less tall and lighter than them (so has slightly better-balanced handling).  But the bottom line is that ; the V8 small saloon is a different creature to the macho beast. As an alpha-male I'm attracted to the Jaguar but as an engineer ..despite loving the look of that double-overhead camshaft Jag engine, I prefer the Daimler.  And as a driver I prefer a car which handles better and has a smooth power curve, over a car that offers grunt.  Everyone to their own huh !

By 1967 Jaguar were facing increasingly keen competition, Leyland incorporated Triumph and Rover (each highly regarded brands) and, along with amalgamated production resources, their bean counters were getting good at streamlining and improved value. The P6 and the Triumph 2500 (with PI in the pipeline), along with various other competitors were sleeker looking than Jaguar-Daimler's heavy bumpers cars, and their interiors were fashionable and easier to maintain. To top it all there was a Rover V8 in the pipeline. Jaguar responded by face-lifting its small saloon models in line with their flagship models, the S-type and the Mk.10.   Although usually only attributed to cost cutting - this was equally an exercise in revised styling and weight savings. The slim bumers are a fraction the weight of the old heavy ones, and even the change to Ambla upholstery and less sound deadening offered useful weight savings. Even the tool-box changed from steel to plastic. The XJ6 was under development but until that was ready - Jaguar had a reputation to maintain.  So when the Rover P6 was introduced with the 3.5 litre V8 engine, the face lifted 3.4 Jaguar was still quicker ..and it was advertised at a 15% lower manufacturer's-recommended-price (which corresponded to further savings in purchase tax). 

The new slimmer models under the Jaguar brand were of course named the 240 and the 340. The latter is arguably the best of the Mk.II jaguars although many classic car enthusiasts still prefer the look of the heavy bumper cars.  The Daimler was likewise lightened in both looks and bumper weight, and rebadged as the 250. Leather seats however remained standard, as did the two spot lights under the headlamps (replaced by 'horn-grilles' on the Jags). The timber veneer remained a better quality, likewise their carpets and sound insulation. As before, several items which were standard on the Daimler were optional extras on the Jaguar.  Each had the option of wire wheels, but I believe the Daimlers were always chrome plated rather than painted.   With this model change also came the (lower cost) option of a manual gearbox on the Daimler V8. It's the same unit as used on the Jaguar 2.4 , and likewise came with the option of an overdrive (on top gear only).  Just 750 manual cars were built, 700 of those with the overdrive. Final diff ratios were altered to suit. Total production of both the Daimler 2 1⁄2 and the 250 was 17,880.  Production of the latter continued until July 1969 when superceded by the Sovereign.  Btw., even the Triumph Mk.II 2·5 PI produced 124 bhp(DIN) @5500rpm ..but being lighter it was just as quick as the Daimler V8.

On January 11th 1968 .. this car was first registered. . .

....

I'm sure the eagle-eyed amongst you will have noticed that this particular 250 is not an automatic.

Even after the Jaguars 240 and 340 were introduced with slim and lighter-weight bumpers and Ambla seat coverings, the Daimler retained leather.

Small but significant, the twin exhaust pipes and badging of the V8.

Although much scruffier than she appears in these photos - that equated to her being affordable.  Otherwise she seems pretty solid including the crows feet. The jacking points were replaced by a Leicestershire Jaguar-specalist just a couple of years ago, sills are solid, tyres are good, exhaust is stainless, odometer mileage is c. 88,700 which is backed up by the last 25 years of MOT's, and she drives well.

I think, because the Lincolnshire registration doesn't inspire anything better, I'll name her 'Midnight'

I got her home today and am looking forward to tinkering.

Pete

 

[Bfg]

The seller, now the prior-owner, very kindly brought the car 140 miles up from Brighton this morning.  I would attach a photo but I don't know how to get it off my phone, trying to email it to myself just got 'authentication failed'. Anyways up., we met at this town's railway station in the rain, and he tells me that she drove well and without any issue aside from steaming up windows as he came into town.

The gentleman perhaps didn't realise how the scuttle's ventilation flap needs to be open to get a half decent air flow through the car, and anyway that vent doesn't open from within. It's seized to the point where it requires manually pulling up from the outside. Similarly the heater / demist controls cables are seized, the choke lever barely works and the throttle sticks. The car simply hasn't been used *. 

* Prior to this 150 mile drive from Brighton to my home, she'd moved just 110 miles since 2017 !  For the owner to bring her around the M25, through the Dartford tunnel, and then up the A12, in the rain and through roadworks in traffic showed incredible faith in the car, was incredibly reckless, &/or was incredibly brave.?  Whichever it was - he and the car both were pretty incredibe !   I'm very impressed the wipers continued to work for three hours or so.  Well done Mr Lucas.    An MOT certifcate from 1988 records 86,758 miles. Subsequent MOT's certificates and then DVLA records suggest she's barely been used each year, and point to the current odometer reading of 88,792 miles as being genuine.  Prior to my buying her - just 1,874 miles over the past 35 years.

He said he'd cruised up a steady 55 - 60mph, as and where traffic allowed, the low fuel warning light had just come on as he approached town, and that he'd put £30 of fuel in the car before he left.  I don't know how much was in the tank before he topped it up because £30 equates to 19.35 ltrs = 4.26 gallons. 140 miles divided by 4.26 = 33.8 mpg.  I would like to believe 🙏 but honestly I don't think so. 25 - 28mpg would have been good according to road test reports.

I went from the railway station to Morrison's supermarket for fuel and to buy what i hoped would be a decent cloth for the windows and some glass cleaner. They really didn't help much when barely moving along in the town traffic shuffle. The windscreen demist fan is non-effective on its first speed, and noisy on its second and still doesn't clear much than the bottom 1" of glass just above the driver's side dashboard vent. With the scuttle vent pulled open from the outside and all the windows cracked open, things were just a little better at 30mph but still visibility was dangerously hampered when turning. That then will have to be one of my first jobs, along with freeing up the slightly sticky throttle pedal or linkages. These V8 normally tick over at 600rpm but its presently double that. I wonder if its been set fast to read a better oil pressure on the gauge.? Caveat emptor !

She's presently parked outside in light but continuous rain ..with the floor carpets removed because the window seals leak. Having also removed the underfelt, I've sponged out puddles from the footwells and the boot. The underfelt is not drip drying ..they're each hung up by one corner and literally trickling with water.

I did enjoy driving her home. She's comfortable, smooth and powerful in a most elegant steam-liner sort of way, with V8 oomph rather than an when-on-cam rush.  The (manual) gearbox is good but I think I'll be on the lookout for a different axle ratio. Living in Suffolk I'll have little need for gearing better suited to climbing Himalayan mountain passes.  As she is, even between 25 & 30mph she pulls cleanly in-overdrive-top to easily keep up with the flow of traffic.  I think she'll excel in Grace, Pace and Space ..even more so than the Jaguar.

 

 

[HMC]

Lovely!i wonder is the scuttle vent similar to the s type? On mine it was vacuum operated and i had to find replacments for missing parts; i used a vacuum actuator off a 1980s japanese car to replace the one missing off my car. 

[Bfg]

Thanks MC..,  I haven't checked but I suspect the scuttle vent mechanicals on this car are more likely akin to those of the Triumph TR3 or it predecessor !   ie., a dashboard lever pushing a bent bit of wire up against an over centre spring.  I have thoughts to become a WD40 shareholder, to strip out the leather and the timber interior.. and to dunk the rest in a big pot of the stuff.  

The car came with a 1961 'Scientific magazine' workshop manual for the Jaguar so I have some homework to get on with.   I used to have an S-type. Very nice and highly under-rated car

Pete

[GMcD]

Wowsers, what a buy. Looks flipping lovely! 😊

[Sham]

I've always preferred a Daimler to the equivalent Jaaaaaaag. They're just a bit more special to my eye.

Always wanted a double six.

[Matty]

A lovely write up. You don't half do long form! Car is a stunner, will be watching and following.

[Dobloseven]

Did you know that in the pre Jaguar days, Daimler contemplated fitting the 2 1/2 litre V8 into Vauxhall Cresta PA bodies to give them a saloon to sell as well as the sports car?Got as far as the prototype stage and then Jaguar came along. In a project worthy of yourself, a fellow name of Roderick Ramage, a solicitor by trade, spent many years and a huge amount of money building his own. A fascinating story. Love the 250,think the thinner bumpers really suit it. 

[High Jetter]

1 hour ago, Dobloseven said:

Did you know that in the pre Jaguar days, Daimler contemplated fitting the 2 1/2 litre V8 into Vauxhall Cresta PA bodies to give them a saloon to sell as well as the sports car?Got as far as the prototype stage and then Jaguar came along. In a project worthy of yourself, a fellow name of Roderick Ramage, a solicitor by trade, spent many years and a huge amount of money building his own. A fascinating story. Love the 250,think the thinner bumpers really suit it. 

Wow, distant memories stirred, had forgot

[ETCHY]

Lovely car, great write up thanks for that.

Please throw that door mirror in the sea.

[Schaefft]

Very sleek looking Daimler, great purchase!

[artdjones]

A much nicer car than the Jaguar 2.4/240. The XK6 engine is great, but very heavy for a 2.4. It needs to be a 3.4 at least. So if you wanted something a bit smaller the mk2 was always going to be a better car as the engine was a lot lighter, reducing understeer, also it had more power.

[N Dentressangle]

10 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

Did you know that in the pre Jaguar days, Daimler contemplated fitting the 2 1/2 litre V8 into Vauxhall Cresta PA bodies to give them a saloon to sell as well as the sports car?Got as far as the prototype stage and then Jaguar came along. In a project worthy of yourself, a fellow name of Roderick Ramage, a solicitor by trade, spent many years and a huge amount of money building his own. A fascinating story. Love the 250,think the thinner bumpers really suit it. 

Bloody hell, you're not wrong!

http://www.daimler-dn250.net/index.htm

Incongruous is the word, I think

[artdjones]

8 minutes ago, N Dentressangle said:

Bloody hell, you're not wrong!

http://www.daimler-dn250.net/index.htm

Incongruous is the word, I think

The grille does look strange on a PA, but it might have been a nice car. The Daimler engine would be a big improvement on the GM engine.

[inconsistant]

My goodness that’s spectacular.  Can I have a ride in it please?!

[Bfg]

Courtesy of ; The Daimler Company, Coventry, England and subsequently Jag-Lovers.org  . . .

 

[Dobloseven]

Apparently a Mk 10 Jaguar was trialled with the 4 1/2 litre Daimler V8 and was quite good, but never went any further. Pity, because then Daimler would have had their own little range to be sold alongside the Jaguars. 

[Rocket88]

18 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

Apparently a Mk 10 Jaguar was trialled with the 4 1/2 litre Daimler V8 and was quite good, but never went any further. Pity, because then Daimler would have had their own little range to be sold alongside the Jaguars. 

Mainly because The 4.5 V8 Daimler engine was far better than Jaguar’s straight 6. Even in a Majestic Major it would do 120!

Russ Carpenter ( legendary drag racer) used to get 1000 bhp out of the 2.5 version, supercharged and running on methanol 

[Bfg]

1 minute ago, Rocket88 said:

Russ Carpenter ( legendary drag racer) used to get 1000 bhp out of the 2.5 version, supercharged and running on methanol 

Any idea what (more moderate) mods were commercially available, back in the day ? 

I then wondering if many Sp250's were raced, so I looked on the internet and found this site < https://www.racing-sp250.co.uk/  >   I haven't browsed it yet but even a quick glance tells me that there's a lot of good stuff on there.

Pete

[Rocket88]

He’s still around….

[Bfg]

36 minutes ago, Rocket88 said:

Mainly because The 4.5 V8 Daimler engine was far better than Jaguar’s straight 6. Even in a Majestic Major it would do 120!

Russ Carpenter ( legendary drag racer) used to get 1000 bhp out of the 2.5 version, supercharged and running on methanol 

I'd bet that V8 sounds fantastic

[Dobloseven]

Think one of the problems with the V8s was that they were only tooled up for small scale production. Believe only a couple of thousand 4 1/2 litres were ever made. If they'd offered a luxury Daimler version that was faster than the sporting Jaguar equivalent........The 2 1/2 cum 250 sort of knew its place. 

 

[Bfg]

Wot No Rain ! ?

I was late arriving at 'Classic Vehicles @ Chappel' so missed many of the visitors and their cars. but for a first run out in the Daimler - I thoroughly enjoyed the across countryside drive. Playing with this Daimler's (rather nice but perhaps too closely spaced) gearbox and overdrive, feeling the car's ride and its handling, the sounds of its twin exhaust V8 (she sounds like an American muscle car of three times her cubes !), and taking in the feel and aroma of the car's interior. That 16" steering wheel is big ! ..but it actually feels really nice and solid, and on the open road the steering is precise.

In part, this run was (with windows half open) to dry her out, becasuse the windscreen seal leaks and she had puddles inside.  I've taken all the floor carpets out and their thick layer of underfelt too - so I was pleasantly surprised that there was not more noise through the bare floors (..an exhaust pipe runs under each side).

^  She certainly doesn't look too bad in these photos, but in truth the car was covered in road spray and muddy splashes after driving up from Brighton in the rain on Friday and then flooded roads. Looking back to the first photo, driver's view over the bonnet, you can see the paintwork is in need of wax polish !  Still I think she looks great as a daily driver in the sunshine and a wonderful compliment to the MG Saloon.  I'd previously imagined the Jaguar-Daimler was a very much bigger car than the MG.

A beauitiful Ford estate close-by a very neat Viva.

  

  

The cafe wasn't cheap but I used them in hoping of supporting the museum.  I sat down in this carriage with my coffee and then a modern train came into the station. It was quite a weird reality in a nice sort of Harry Potter way.  I hadn't realised this station was still in everyday service, I thought it to be a museum.  

 

  

Then back to Fox's marina where my old boat is ..and a bucket and sponge

just a wash and not yet polished, but looking quite respectable already. I had been considering a colour change, another dark colour, but to be honest the black is growing on me.   It's just a sod to keep looking clean.

Did you know.. Daimler's fluted radiator grille is styled after the exposed radiator cooling loop tubes of the very first Daimler automobile carriages.  

 

^ just one of the photos I took for the agreed-value insurance.

  

^ while at Earls Colne I took advantage of the open space and the pleasant background sounds of steam locos to adjust the carburettor linkages and to lower the tick-over.  As i suspected the choke cable wasn't slack enough (by 3/8" ! )  and the throttle rods need lubrication. I've dropped the idle speed from 11-1200 rpm to 600rpm, but I need to adjust the rods as their present geometry almost goes over-centre. 

I look forward to tidying this engine bay up.  

BTW the earlier Daimler 2-1/2 (the heavy bumper model) used a single air filter placed centrally over the top of the twin carbs with two trumpets facing forward. The twin air filters of the 250 (seen here) allow easier access to the SU carbettors. The twin air filters appear to give the customer more for his money ..but again the most likely the change was to eliminate (from cost & weight) several cast aluminium air pipes, a number of connecting rubber sleeves and brackets from the twin carburettors to a single air filter. This is a really good example of value enginnering

 

 

The view Rover V8 drivers would see

  

 

[lesapandre]

On 21/10/2023 at 13:13, Dobloseven said:

Apparently a Mk 10 Jaguar was trialled with the 4 1/2 litre Daimler V8 and was quite good, but never went any further. Pity, because then Daimler would have had their own little range to be sold alongside the Jaguars. 

They did. The Majestic Major and limo version were made up to 1968. The interior  - particularly the seats were redesigned by Mr Lyons.

The Majestic was axed by the Leyland takeover and one D. Stokes alas. 

The Mk10 was a terrible seller - I'd surmise it just was not worth the bother of a Daimler version with all the costs of conversion.

The MK2 conversion was a much better bet - they sold a lot - the engines are virtually hand made 

The Turner V8 was usurped by the V12.  Mr Lyons did not care for V8's apparently.

They sold a marine version of the V8 - so one or two may be knocking around in boats.

Lovely car btw. Keep it black. Suits it.

[Dobloseven]

7 hours ago, lesapandre said:

They did. The Majestic Major and limo version were made up to 1968. The interior  - particularly the seats were redesigned by Mr Lyons.

The Majestic was axed by the Leyland takeover and one D. Stokes alas. 

The Mk10 was a terrible seller - I'd surmise it just was not worth the bother of a Daimler version with all the costs of conversion.

The MK2 conversion was a much better bet - they sold a lot - the engines are virtually hand made 

The Turner V8 was usurped by the V12.  Mr Lyons did not care for V8's apparently.

They sold a marine version of the V8 - so one or two may be knocking around in boats.

Lovely car btw. Keep it black. Suits it.

Well aware of the Majestic Major. Used to see the very odd one when I were a lad! Thing is, it was very much a fifties design, despite disc brakes etc Believe the Krays might have used one. The Mk 10 was a turning point for the big Jaguars with IRS,unitary construction etc. Think  they were hoping it'd sell well in America, which apparently it didn't because they preferred V8s!A Mk 10 was used quite a bit in the last series of Call the Midwife. The Mk 10 /420G platform lived on for many years under the Daimler DS420 limousine stretched a bit. 

[lesapandre]

Mk 10 /420G production figures* Yes a V8 might have helped or even the new V12. Pity really.

For comparison with the US market - Cadillac made 163,000 cars in 1963 alone.

Between 1962 and 1969 17,620 Daimler V8 saloons were built. **

On the Jaguar Heritage Trust website they report that limited investment in tooling for the 2.5-litre engine led to limited production capacity, with a maximum weekly output of 140 engines. Daimler in the 50's was always a bit of hand to mouth operation alas - why they fell into Jaguar's hands in the first place.  I think principally they wanted their factory space - the Browns Lane 'shadow factory' was too small. Ironically that factory had originally been used by Daimler too.

So to V8-ise the Mk10 they would have had to bear the development cost of the conversion and probably retool the engine making side. By that point they were busy developing XJ6 and the new V12 which were much more successful.

Again JHT report that Stokes dropped the V8 on the grounds of cost - again a Daimler problem around achieving profitably given the limited tooling - and by that point there were three different V8 engines in the BLMC stable.

https://www.jaguarheritage.com/daimler-v8-engine/#:~:text=Between the years 1962 and,called the Daimler V8-250.

Nothing is ever quite straightforward in the 60's Coventry motor industry.

*Source Jaguar Enthusiasts Club

** Source Jaguar Heritage Trust

[High Jetter]

2 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

The Mk 10 /420G platform lived on for many years under the Daimler DS420 limousine stretched a bit. 

It did indeed, the DS420 was beloved by both the match and despatch trades. I remember the guy in charge of a local funeral director's fleet coming to the parts dept. of the JRT dealer where I worked in the early 80s for a wide range of items to keep them going as long as he could, and saw them on the road for a good few years afterwards.

[Bfg]

 

c.1960   © nigelfishersbriggblog.blogspot.com

There's no original buff or green registration document in the box file which came with the Daimler, but MOT certificates date back to 1988.  The car was then being MOT'd and I suspect owned by Smith Parkinson (Motors) Ltd., Market Place, Brigg, fomerly South Humberside, now (since 2000) North Lincolnshire.  The garage has gone, taken over by one firm after another and may now be new housing.    I've just written to a Blog website on the town of Brigg, by Nigel Fisher, in reply to someone spotting in 2008 a van in the town bearing Smith Parkinson number plates and back window sticker . . . .

...many years later I've come across Nigel Fisher's Brigg Blog, in searching for Smith-Parkinson (Motors) Ltd. The reason for my internet search is that I've recently bought a Daimler 250 that I'm guessing by old MOT certificates might have been owned by that garage.

I'm basing this upon those records - showing the car barely moved between 1988 and August 2000 (just 580 miles), and between May 1993 and August 1996 she only travelled 3 miles. The car was originally silver but is now painted black. The car's carpets are red and the leather seats in their ox-blood-red are still in good shape. I wonder if anybody remembers the car, perhaps has a photo or two, &/or can tell me about the owner. I have no paperwork older than 1988. The car's registration is NFW 842F. The MOT inspector was Mr P.Gash. Thank you for helping me fill in a little of this beautiful car's history. 

 

Nigel Fisher, whose has the blog on Brigg had written in June 2008 ;

"Just followed a van down Barnard Avenue with Smith-Parkinson numberplates and a Smith-Parkinson sticker in the back window. As the years mount since the firm closed its premises in the Market Place, such a sight will become rarer and rarer.

I never bought a car from their showrooms, not being a lover of Fords, but did use their servicing department a lot and always found them very helpful and courteous. Now, of course, the old 'Smith Parky' building, famous for its metal roof, has been done up in style by Grimley Smith Associates. When they come to dish out best building awards, this one must be a front-runner. "

The refernece to the distinctive building's metal roof may be linked to the Smith family having been owners of a successful metal working business. "Older Brigg Blog followers may recall decades ago when Smith & Sons traded as ironmongers in the Market Place. The premises were near where Ladbroke's is today. The extensive range of items provided by Smith's included metal manhole covers. A survivor (one of those manhole cover) can still be seen today on Market Lane - literally a stone's throw from the place that supplied it, possibly to Brigg Urban District Council. The Smith & Sons lettering is still readable on that cover despite being open to the elements for many years and close to the later Smith Parkinson garage, which became Grimley-Smith's offices and now house the HQ of Brown & Co.

 

In April 2022  Nigel wrote ;

"A company which is very well-known in Brigg town centre is relocating its local office to the North Bank of the Humber. From tomorrow (Monday, April 4) there will be a regional Brown & Co 'hub' for North Lincolnshire and Yorkshire, based on an enterprise park in North Ferriby, not far from the Humber Bridge. The retail/estate agency premises in the Market Place, with upper floor office suite and parking, have been marketed to let due to relocation.

This building was occupied by the Smith Parkinson garage and car sales business for decades, its showroom being on the ground floor. These premises later became G.S.A. House - a base for the Grimley-Smith company - winning the Brigg Town Civic Award for building refurbishment in 2008. The same annual accolade went to Brown & Co for 2016 after it moved to 6 Market Place and further alterations were forthcoming. The Town Council said at the time that the frontage greatly enhanced the area, and that the design had been very skillfully executed."

   

^ 1994 - In the top window "Escort - It's got what it takes"   ..sounds like - a right thieving little .........  !

[jonny69]

Magazine-quality writing and top-notch shite. Replying now, but I’m keeping this tab open for later when I’ve got the time to spend on it which it deserves. 

[Bfg]

THANK YOU ALL for your kind interest and support.

 

Reality check ..   I thought it timely to share the following with y'all, so you'll hopefully not judge me as yet another rich git who can just go out and spend a small fortune on fully restored toys like a classic Jaguar-Daimler.

All of the following I knew about, and balanced into the decision whether to buy when I first went to see and test drive the car, before purchase. . .

 

    

^ Crazed and micro-bubbling of the paintwork. The black (including door shuts) is over the original silver-grey.  Of course it's now difficult to judge exactly how much high-build-primer went into achieving this fine finish. The rear half of the roof is in a similar state, and then on the rear Rh wing there's also a blister of paint the size of your hand. Paint has flaked off at the bottom of the A-post (showing white which I'm guessing is either lead-loading or bondo), and of course the bottom edges all around the car are scabby.  The boot lid and bumper are dented, as is the rear under-bumper valance panel which has been bondo'd and painted but is rusty underneath that and flaking off in chunks.  The inner wheel arches, behind the wheels, have sacrificed their bottom three or four inches edges to rust.  The sills I'm not sure about. they seem solid enough but I suspect new panels over old.   Places in the footwells and up the inner sills have definately been patched. The bottom of the doors and boot lid are rusty, but I cannot really tell how badly because underseal has been slapped over (..or is that under) 'em. 

I'm not complaining here..  All I'm saying is that the purchase cost of this car was 'affordable' - because of these and a host of other issues ..and the cost to rectify each of those, and to take the car's paint back to solid and to give her a half decent respray.  The registration letter didn't conjure up a name for the car but its condition suggested '" No Fkg Way ! "

I went into this with my eyes open because I've had a Daimler 2-1/2 automatic before (22 years ago) and then 15-years later a '66 S-type Jag ..which cost me a small fortune and a lot of hassle until I got her into a state where she would sell. I simply couldn't afford to keep spending money on her.  So, this time I'm starting with an affordable car, knowing full well that there's going to be some big bills and many hours of my own time..  but if I'm not too ambitious in my standards and accept her as a driver - then I shouldn't take too deep a dive into negative equity.   

  

^ Likewise with the interior. This is how I drove it across to the car meet on Sunday ..with the windows half open.   Obvious, even to a guide dog in a manure heap, is the faded carpet over gearbox and along the sills.  Likewise the floor mats being out., all the carpets are shot and that piece seen in the driver's footwell is aftermarket ..with all the luxurious quality of cheap n' itchy nylon underpants.  It's so thin that I don't think it's carpet at all. I think it's more likely to have been intended as side trim panel covering.  I took the other carpets and their underfelt out because they were squidgy with rain water (the windscreen rainwater drips on your throttle foot as you drive along and rear wind rubber also leaks) and the door sealing rubbers and their window seals are all well passed their best-used-before date.  Likewise the spare whjeel is out ..to dry out the boot. As you might'a noticed, from the door trim panels - the car might benefit from a full valet, complete with chewing gum in the astrays, and the dashboard timber has the texture of leather and sort of sticky . The headlining is in good condition but for mould. I'm hoping dry cleaning will restore it to serviceable condition. All in all it looks like, and thankfully drives like, a mechanic's car.  I'm sure you've all seen similar.

Underneath the car has been patch welded and then undersealed to mostly-hide it from the next potential buyer.  I'd like to get the underside  jet washed by a commercial vehicle place ..to blast off as much of the underseal as they can. I loath that stuff.   I'll share the result of that 'procedure' as and when.

 

  

^ underbonnet is not at all bad, aside from being filthy and a few rusty bits being obvious ..especially the heater box which has lost its felt insulation (..standard on the Daimler, optional on the Jag ! } but most everything needs attending to.  The throttle linkage, choke, heater control, scuttle vent, and pretty much every other control cable is seized from lack of use.  However the radiator coolant pipes appear to have been replaced. And according to the invoices the clutch was changed, and the engine, gearbox & diff oils were changed just two years ago. She was recomissioned for use but then sold on, perhaps the garage pointed out major cost items which the owner ought to prepare himself for next ?? 

Related to her general condition . . .

^ These are the MOT's  I found in the box file.  Only once failed an MOT in 29 years !   ..but, as you can see from the mileages recorded - the car simply wasn't used for long periods of time.  And even since the last in 2017 - the car was only driven a further 200 miles before I bought her. 

This past week she's driven up from Brighton and then on Sunday went to a car meet in Essex, altogether another 200 miles. The point I'm making is that in the past 35 years she's driven just 2,099 miles, to date according to the odometer.  And although that bodes well for lesser wear in all moving parts ..as well as a lack of home tinkering - it also means that everything will need to be checked and recomissioned.  The list will be endless and so I shall not compile one !!

but.,  Watch this space.  

 

Btw., I've subsequently named her 'midnight' in respect of her being pitch black in colour with a slight tinge of blue.  The blood covered coloured carpets had nothing to do with it