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Grace, Pace and Space ..even more so than the Jaguar.


Bfg

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Yup having a driving car is much better than buying a stationary hunk of metal. I 'd try and keep her on the road myself - than pulling it all apart. A good scruffy car is quite a nice thing.

What needs attention are those bits that are deteriorating quickly or what makes the car unsafe on the road. 

Lots of these 'Jags' were tarted up in the 80's and 90's when they first became valuable.

Unusual colour change - but suits it. Looks a proper sub-fusc Daimler and the heir to the Conquest, which it was.

Sir William Lyons was a clever marketeer - and a Daimler-ised Jaguar made more sense than a Vauxhall conversion which was Daimler's idea.

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1 hour ago, Dobloseven said:

Come on, Bfg, tell us you've not thought of a Daimler V8 powered TR4A! 

To deny would be a lie..   if i could find a Daimler V8 engine and manual/overdrive gearbox at a sensible price it would very likely happen B)   ....crowd funding might work ! ? :ph34r: :D

Anyone know of a Daimler dart (SP250) with a smashed fibreglass body and rotten chassis ?

 

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From what I've read, in new product release and road test articles by the likes of Autocar, Autosport, and Motor - the Daimler SP250's chassis and rolling stock is an orthodox cross-diagonally-braced underslung design, very similar to (but not the same chassis) as the Triumph TR3.  And as we all know, the Daimler-sport's floor pan and body tub, complete with all four wings were made in Polyester fibreglass, while its suspension, brakes, and steering, wheels n' tyres, electrics, etc, came from the usual motor industry suppliers. The front suspension for example is by Alford & Adler.  A Salisbury rear axle is used and Hardy Spicer driveshaft.   Girling disc brakes ..on all four corners (TR3 had rear drum brakes).  Armstrong shock absorbers front & rear.  Pivot rubber bushes are by Metalastic. Steering was originally a cam & lever box but I know many cars have been converted to use the rack & pinion off the Triumph Herald / Vitesse so I might only presume their front wheel-plan & chassis must have similar dimensions.

How many suspension parts are interchangeable with the Triumphs I cannot say, but I'm sure the very high torque of the Daimler V8, as well as its different weight distribution and high straight line speeds, necessitated more differences than same parts.

22 hours ago, High Jetter said:

Isn't that (a Daimler V8 powered TR4A)  a SP250 Dart?

Not at all :shock:  Michelotti, the design-stylist of the TR4, would haunt you if he heard such a thing !

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What's often not acknowledged is how much of the Birmingham/Coventry motor industry was sustained by a web of component and other suppliers feeding into the manufacturers. Some of these made small components to order - some of the larger operation had their own r-and-d. It's a fascinating area of study.

The old Motor Show guides often have ads for these companies. The old Earls Court Motor Show used to have the manufacturers on the main floor - but all around on the upper floors were the various support industries exhibiting. The more household names are Girling and Lucas etc. but there were many many others.

Subframes for BMC fwd cars were made by Rubery Owen for example.

This approach had strengths and weakness - particularly where car manufacturers were beholden to the quality control of outside suppliers or when suppliers had long strikes.  

But if you wanted to shop around, like Daimler did, for an off-the-peg car, it was certainly possible.

The body of the Daimler V8, as we're all Jaguars, was made, for example, by Pressed Steel and delivered 'in the white' to Jaguar at Browns Lane.

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No motor manufacturer (not even when they became huge corporations) had the factory space and/or specialist human resources, the product development budget and/or the time, to make everything that went into their full range of vehicles.  Case in point, the Daimler SP250 was developed on the basis of perhaps 100 cars per week production. As it was little more than 2600 cars were sold over a five year period.

But because the motor industry suppliers made their specialist parts, albeit with slight variation, for many customers - their relatively-high volume production numbers kept component part costs low.   Importantly they also maintained back up supplies of spare parts to dealerships and the trade ..for years after any particular model or spec was dropped from the car manufacturer's range.  This in turn helped every car manufacturer develop their overseas market sales, which otherwise would have stifled by a lack of parts to keep those vehicles on the road.       

With regard to quality control, I'd suggest their standards were, on the whole, very much higher than the car manufacturer ..because they were in keen competition with other suppliers. As an example ; Lockheed, Girling, Dunlop and a dozen others had overlapping product lines.  Each were keen to be the OE supplier for any production car builder.  Similarly SU was in fierce competition with Solex, Weber, and other carburettor and fuel-pump manufacturers.  Dunlop versus Michelin tyres ..and how many others ! ?  The commercial competitiveness goes on and on.  Each supply company advertised their race &/or endurance proven reputation to win public support ..and those as well as their in-house product development, their pricing, and the ability to supply-upon-demand was crucial to each company's survival. 

No vehicle manufacturer wanted to pay much for the parts and yet each demanded incredible reliability and longevity - because those products directly reflected upon the vehicle's overall reputation. Very much more so when new and written in to the sales specs, and reported upon by the motoring press. Whether the car's body & doors or its chassis would be peppered with rust in five years only really became an issue in the 1970's when monocoque vehicle construction was recognised as having water traps where repairs were awkward and expensive.  

Still, many if not most of those components were to serve in the harshest of under car / under wheel-arch or in a stifling engine bay environment, with a bare minimum of maintenance.  And 50-years later many original components are still working reliably. Imo, their designers and the production facilities of suppliers to the motor industry are the real unsung heroes of today's classic-car industry.  Those parts may need a wire brush clean up, a fresh coat of paint and some fresh lubricant, but very often those components are easily and cheaply restored and reused.  Certainly within Triumph circles ; the original parts, fit for refurbishment are sought over in preference to modern replacements, whatever resurrected trade logo they are sold under.

Pete 

 

p.s. During the war years things were different because many small engineering works were needed to make weapons or ammunition &/or vehicle and aircraft or ship parts, and even uniforms and equipment for 'the war machine' and its armies.  When told to make something else, many businesses didn't have the necessary expertise or tools, nor the infrastructure for getting supplies in, or for shipping their produce out.  Companies like BSA (Birmingham Small Arms  ..historically experienced in providing arms and with political connections) were given the opportunity to manage or to buy them, with Government financial support.  Daimler and also Sunbeam motorcycles ..which similarly tickle my fancy, and many others were taken under BSA's wings. 

BSA's management pulled things together by providing necessary equipment, staff and raw materials wherever most needed (they had a lot of weight with the war office) and of course managed transport from one factory to another.  Under strong leadership BSA became a huge group with over 50 separate factories, many of which were relocated to the countryside to avoid factory bombings.  As the war ended - BSA were faced with cancelled war office orders and yet a responsibility to thousands of employees. The war did however concentrate companies, well equipped and staffed, specialist part makers. The parts they made usually had commonality (for use on different pieces of equipment) and made to war-office high standards. The best of those became the major suppliers to the post-war motor and motorcycle industries.

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  • 2 weeks later...

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I'm not moving very fast on this, not least because I've been fitting ram pipes within the air filters of my TR4, Katie  < here > and then also swapping out her seats.  But the plan for tomorrow is to drive up to nr. Downham Market, where those Norse Folk live, to see my friends Mathew and Justine.  Mathew loves his Triumphs and Justine is supportive to the point of her even coming to our Triumph Sports Six Club meetings and being socially active. She's one special lady.   Mathew has kindly offered to help me tidy the Daimler up - so I'm hoping to drive, pending floods and other obstacles, the 65 miles so that he can have a look. 

...But as the car's windscreen rubbers leak ! and because of the present weather situation - I really wanted to have a go at sealing around the windscreen today.  Rain water dribbling down the back of the walnut veneered dashboard and onto my right ankle isn't what one expects when driving a distinguished motor car.  monocledemoji.jpg.69df292fff7bf4c5fb5ecd663b4cf057.jpg

so . . .

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^ I eased open up the rubber windscreen seal to vacuum out the soil deposit., having previously been shopping for a suitable sealant which I found at my local, and extremely helpful windscreen replacement specialist - Gold Windscreens, Martlesham, Ipswich who very kindly provided a tube of the above, together with a spray pot of appropriate glass cleaner, and copious lashings of helpful advice.

The task of oozing said sealant inbetween the rubber seal and the windscreen glass went well enough. As a novice, the technique I used (but did not take a photo of ..because I had my hands full) was to draw an old n' rounded flat blade screwdriver along the rubber to open up the seam, and to immediately follow along behind that with the nozzle.  It would have been very much easier with two persons !   Job done and the excess firstly scraped and then wiped away (on industrial blue paper toweling) and then the residue was cleaned up with the solution provided.  I did another run with the sealant, this time very tightly into the corner, because somewhere along the past 55 years - the old window rubber had lost it suppleness, so having been pulled away it was not pinching tightly closed again.  

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Job neatly done.   Hopefully tomorrow will be dry and bright anyway B)

Pete

 

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Ooh I need to do this. Both my front and rear screens leak on supposedly new rubbers (not fitted by me). I'm in no rush to start taking screens out!

Please let us know how successful it was after tomorrow's drive Pete. Both cars are looking stunning. Daimler for me if you find yourself giving one away 😄

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I'll let you know Matty, how well the screen is sealed.  I've only done the sides and across the bottom, but I think that should sort out 99% of the trickle.  Let me restore the Daimler for you before I give her away !

Pete

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How kind! It doesn't look like it needs much, although having read a lot of the thread it will no doubt be perfected.

I hope the screen sealing works as then I will definatly be copying. Good luck for the trip in this weather!

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Nice., Very.

 

My first  car was a 2.5 my auto did about 20 ish mpg

 

A superb sounding and really understressed engine. The manual is a real rarity as well - I think thay barely made it into double digits with them fitted.

From my reading Jag bought Daimler for purely production capacity. Both  the 2.5 and 4.5 engines were better (imho) then the Xk 6 pot. There is the oft told story of a 4.5 being put into an XJ6 and out performing the straight 6 around the mira track, being substantially lighter then the honking big cast iron Jag lump.  And that it woukdnt do for a a non Jag engine  to be used .  

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21 minutes ago, Low Horatio gearbox said:

Nice., Very.

 

My first  car was a 2.5 my auto did about 20 ish mpg

 

A superb sounding and really understressed engine. The manual is a real rarity as well - I think thay barely made it into double digits with them fitted.

From my reading Jag bought Daimler for purely production capacity. Both  the 2.5 and 4.5 engines were better (imho) then the Xk 6 pot. There is the oft told story of a 4.5 being put into an XJ6 and out performing the straight 6 around the mira track, being substantially lighter then the honking big cast iron Jag lump.  And that it woukdnt do for a a non Jag engine  to be used .  

The strange decisions that killed the British car industry. If you own the company that produces the engine, it's your engine surely. Sadly believable though

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On 02/11/2023 at 21:22, Low Horatio gearbox said:

Nice., Very.

 

My first  car was a 2.5 my auto did about 20 ish mpg

 

A superb sounding and really understressed engine. The manual is a real rarity as well - I think thay barely made it into double digits with them fitted.

From my reading Jag bought Daimler for purely production capacity. Both  the 2.5 and 4.5 engines were better (imho) then the Xk 6 pot. There is the oft told story of a 4.5 being put into an XJ6 and out performing the straight 6 around the mira track, being substantially lighter then the honking big cast iron Jag lump.  And that it woukdnt do for a a non Jag engine  to be used .  

Yes a 4.5 was put in the 420G. I think the reason not to proceed with it would have been more complicated than 'embarrassment'. William Lyons was a shrewd businessman. They were up to capacity on the number of Daimler engines they could make overall - so plumped for the 2.5 over the bigger 4.5 which probably made marketing sense. By that point Jaguar were getting their own V12 ready. Companies only have so much development and production capacity.

There would be other factors like the Daimler engines ability to meet the US smog regulations, the overall cost of production of each engine and the longevity of the 4.5 in service as well as the cost of modifications to the existing  Mk2 or MkX body tubs. Also to avoid any warranty problems again Jaguar decided to keep with the tried and tested XK unit in the new XJ6. 

Wikipedia gives 220 bhp for the V8 and 250 for the MkX. 

All a long time ago. Jaguar were never a very big company and their resources were limited and stretched thin - hence the merger with BMC.

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I think there's a lot of good sense in what you've said and these may have been contributing factors but.. in my and many others opinion, the following says it all . . .

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In short.., long before Daimler was bought by Jaguar in 1960, Jaguar cars already had a long and highly respected racing heritage. Le Mans may have been the pinnacle in Northern Europe but in the mountain ranges, in the USA, and on each continent they also had legendary rally & saloon car race success. And when you've spent decades creating an icon you don't simply say "hey that engine has potential, let's change !"  ..especially when Jaguars were built to a price and the Daimler V8 twin-cylinder-head engine possibly cost 20-25% more.  

Furthermore, it’s surely a little unfair to back-to-back compare the Daimler with the Jaguar engine, when the former is 4.5 litre and the latter 3.8 litre ?    Even then it may also be remembered that the Jaguar’s XK engine still had room for development ..as was forthcoming in the 4.2 litre ..whereby the development, tooling and manufacturing cost of that upgrade / spec change was minimal.  Subsequently the Jaguar’s 4.2 ltr XK engined Mk.X gave superior acceleration than the Daimler 4.5 litre.

Just perhaps too, William Lyons appreciated that their 150mph 3.8 litre was quite quick enough for 1960’s roads. Despite the first 8-1/4 miles section of UK motorway being opened around Preston in December 1958, it would still be a ten year program before the M1 London to Leeds was complete, and many years later still before an extensive network of motorways were built throughout the UK.   In the USA., the Harley police motorcycles vibrated alarmingly at higher speed ..so they blanketed the country with 55mph speed limits  :ph34r:   :lol::lol:

There were two other factors. The first you mention above ..and that is production numbers. Jaguar had long before committed to and tooled up for the production of the XK straight-six engine with a range of capacities ;  2.4,  2.8 (later),  3.4,  3.8,  and 4.2 litre (later).  This was a useful range for their performance-related mid to upper sized saloon cars. Whereas the Daimler engine came only in two capacities and few parts were interchangeable between them.  Until the XK engine’s tooling was worn out, or considered obsolete, it simply didn't make economic sense to invest in the another.   Of course this same 'economic sense' equally applied to worldwide stocks of spares and service items, and their training of mechanics.

A lesser discussed topic is that automatic gearboxes do seem to work particularly well when coupled with the power delivery characteristics of  V configured engines (.. V6, V8 or V12’s). Possibly this is why so many of the best classic American cars and trucks are V8 automatics ? ..and similarly why classic Italian V12 saloons have their fair share of automatic gearboxes ?   Daimler cars and limousines were generally sold with automatic boxes whereas Jaguar owners mostly favoured manual gear-changes. According to Wiki ; “All 4.5-litre V8 Daimler models sold were automatic, which makes connection to a manual transmission difficult.”  The manufacturers undoubtedly could have coupled manual gearboxes to the Daimler 4.5, but Jaguar simply didn’t need it ..or perhaps because the gearboxes, diff's and drivetrains would also have to be upgraded.?

Pete

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From Friday ..   no rain to test the windscreen sealant but I'm sure there will be before too long. . . 

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^ Norfolk where the land is flat and the blue skies have a particular expanse.                         ^^  In overdrive top, just poodling along behind lorries. 

 

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^ View down the (un-polished) bonnet as I picked up the pace along the clear roads skirting the ever beautiful Thetford Forest.  I love driving through sunlit woodland, especially as their colours turn autuminal.

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^ Back to my enjoying driving through Suffolk countryside.

"since the last MOT in 2017 - the car was only driven a further 200 miles before I bought her."   She's now clocked up another 435miles ..in two weeks.   I've discovered she's not so handy where the roads have roundabouts every half a mile, but for all else -  I like B)

Pete

 

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Not much happening this week, but I had noticed how very insecure these cars are, what with both front and back opening quarter-tlight windows and locks which are of brass and so badly worn that any old car key can be wiggled to open the doors.  So for when the car is being left in a vulnerable location I've just bought one of these. . .

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This steering wheel immobiliser is the higher security Pro  model of the Stoplock range, which gets good reviews (NB. the Elite model of the same device has a deep offset for fatter steering wheels). After looking on-line, including for a second-hand one, I bought this new (with 2 keys) from Halfords. They presently have them with a £10 off RRP, and then another 10% off when buying on-line and free postage over certain order value. In total it cost just a few pence under £35 delivered.  

Either or both are of course only a deterrent, especially when steering wheels on classic cars may be wood rimmed with easily snipped through aluminium spokes, but it is quick n' easy to use, and an obvious nuisance to would be joy-riders.

Even though you may otherwise also have an ignition immobiliser, that's not known about until the vehicle is broken / smashed into and tried to be started, and then the dashboatd ripped out to be hot wired. Better to move them onto another, quicker and easier target because of a deterent I think.

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Because it's universal fitment - it also means that I can use it on other cars. Who knows I might even configure it around the frame and through the spokes of my motorcycle.

I'm sure many of use have cars parked up and left unattended, possibly for weeks on end.

Food for thought perhaps ..and a great price from halfords. 

Pete

p.s. I’m not telling the insurance company because they’ll insist it’s always on the car when parked.

 

 

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Here is something you don't see very often 😎 .. Two Daimler 250's, 1968 and 1969 respectively, each in black with red leather, each with less than 90k miles on the clock (genuine), and each with manual / overdrive. Tony's owned his for some 20 years now, and I've own mine for some 20 days now.  His is in very beautiful and original condition complete with chrome wires and PAS ...but I'm still delighted with mine (..the one with the lesser shine).  I've just met Tony through a Facebook Daimler group, and so this was our first rendezvous to talk about these cars over a cuppa.  He very kindly agreed to take me out in his (I asked, as he seems very modest) ..so I might know what to expect in terms of ride, comfort, driver response, noise levels, oil pressures, etc., etc.
 
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The steering wheel is an aftermarket one, but it's a nice compliment to the Daimler's original wooden dash and A-post trim.
Pete
 
p.s. on the way home I stopped to take this village green photo of my car . . .
 
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I certainly don't mind the steel wheels on the Daimler, so have no plans to change them. ;)   I'm happy for those who have Jagwaars to keep their spokes.

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2 hours ago, Bfg said:

I certainly don't mind the steel wheels on the Daimler, so have no plans to change them. ;)   I'm happy for those who have Jagwaars to keep their spokes.

That thought came to me earlier, looking at the 2 side by side. Daimler was the more refined brand.

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I don't think the Daimlers were originally sold with wires - it may not even have been an option? The average Homburg-hatted Daimler owner would have considered that too racey.

Likewise the MK2 Jags - fewer were sold on wires...but...

When values of Mk2's moved from the 100's of £'s to the 1000's of £'s - 1980-90 - the trade tarted them up with wires to increase their value - that - some chicken wire, wob and a blow-over in lipstick red. 😂

Owned by bank robbers innit.

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