F**ked Black Rover 827 SLi - The Mistake Machine

[Noel Tidybeard]

6 minutes according to google foo 🤣

[St.Jude]

So all credit to @Noel Tidybeard and @Lankytim who came over today and gave me a hand.

Thanks to them we have worked out a few things.

1) The starter relay does work, but there is no power going to it to energise it.

2) Bypassing it cranks the engine. The starter engine works.

3) Using easy start it will not start. There is a spark. Kind of can hear a burble from the back and there is a smell of petrol there too from the exhaust.

4) Fuel is going to the engine.

So it’s cranking but not starting, and something is stopping the starter relay engaging. @Lankytim took the cap off of it, so you can touch the side of it and it’ll start the car.

But we are further forward now. I may now go to change the fuel pump (as there is a spare) to see if that does anything. I will need to see if I can check the strength of the spark.

[Mr Pastry]

1 hour ago, St.Jude said:

1) The starter relay does work, but there is no power going to it to energise it.

2) Bypassing it cranks the engine.

Inhibitor switch then.

[Matty]

This place top men etc etc. Sometimes you can be that close to a problem you can't see the wood for the trees. Brilliant that the boys came over and mucked in. It's got to be a gnats pube away from running! Top men again 👏 

[grogee]

IT WANTS TO LIVE

[Noel Tidybeard]

nice to meet da boyz👍

a little frustrating that the rover is still being a french surrender monkey though

 

 

 

i've still got a can and a lighter- just saying!🤣

[Noel Tidybeard]

i saw the lamb bhuna! 🤭

[Noel Tidybeard]

22 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Inhibitor switch then.

the wiring diagram points at that as a definite culprit

[Lankytim]

There’s a live at the relay that’s switching on and off with the ignition key, along with a permanent live and presumably an earth (should’ve checked the continuity on that tbh) and the switched live going to the starter solenoid. It’s odd, maybe the incorrect relay is fitted? Holding the relay closed operates the starter.

There’s a spark at the king lead and then at the plug end. We should’ve removed the plugs to inspect/clean. 
 

A fuel union was undone on the filter and fuel dribbled out. With the ignition on fuel was slowly pumped out. Should be it be high pressure?

A bit of progress at least! 
 

Greet meeting fellow shiters and finally meeting the beast! 

 

 

[Matty]

Such a good looking car as well @St.Jude. Tbh as the patron Saint of lost causes I'd expect nothing less than a good result!

[Mr Pastry]

25 minutes ago, Lankytim said:

There’s a live at the relay that’s switching on and off with the ignition key, along with a permanent live and presumably an earth (should’ve checked the continuity on that tbh) and the switched live going to the starter solenoid. It’s odd, maybe the incorrect relay is fitted? Holding the relay closed operates the starter.

Not the inhibitor switch in that case, as the relay is fed from it.   On the diagram posted earlier the white/black from the starter relay coil is shown as feeding a "burglar alarm."  This has to provide the earth for the relay.  It should be safe to earth the white/black directly.   Nearly there, anyway.

[Bren]

Good progress. Well done to all involved.

[Noel Tidybeard]

the big fook off relay under the dash deffo need proving yay or nay

[Noel Tidybeard]

do we think it's this mofo?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/304808279369

[Noel Tidybeard]

https://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~relay~assy~39400-sd4-003.html

[Noel Tidybeard]

well fcuk me does this sound familiar?

 

[SEATMad]

@St.Jude Just think how good it'll feel when you've finally got this running and are finally able to drive it. It'll all feel worth it. Great job so far, good to see such positive progress being made! 

[Noel Tidybeard]

lings have it in stock but a bit spendy

https://hondaspareparts.co.uk/products/39400sd4003

[Lankytim]

I’m still wondering if the fuel pressure is too low. Releasing a union should provide a spray of fuel as the system depressurises should it not?  There was fuel there but it simply dribbled out, which turned into a slightly more pronounced dribble with the ignition on. 
 

I’d look at running a live feed to the pump to see what it does and if that doesn’t do anything, fit the spare pump in the boot.

That said we still don’t know if the injectors are opening and closing (maybe not if there’s no fuel pressure)

 

[shampooefficient]

8 minutes ago, Lankytim said:

I’m still wondering if the fuel pressure is too low. Releasing a union should provide a spray of fuel as the system depressurises should it not?  There was fuel there but it simply dribbled out, which turned into a slightly more pronounced dribble with the ignition on. 
 

I’d look at running a live feed to the pump to see what it does and if that doesn’t do anything, fit the spare pump in the boot.

That said we still don’t know if the injectors are opening and closing (maybe not if there’s no fuel pressure)

 

Never worked on one of these but if the fuel filter is accessible, worth having a look to see if its a rusted pile of profanity? 

[Mr Pastry]

1 minute ago, Lankytim said:

I’m still wondering if the fuel pressure is too low. Releasing a union should provide a spray of fuel as the system depressurises should it not?  There was fuel there but it simply dribbled out, which turned into a slightly more pronounced dribble with the ignition on. 
 

I’d look at running a live feed to the pump to see what it does and if that doesn’t do anything, fit the spare pump in the boot.

That said we still don’t know if the injectors are opening and closing (maybe not if there’s no fuel pressure)

 

Agreed.  I think you ought to be getting full fuel pressure with ignition switched on.  The pump is working a bit, so the relay is doing something, suspect the pump.  Try a live feed or bypass the relay and see what happens.  Not intending to be critical of what you guys are doing btw. we all work different ways and I wasn't there.

[Lankytim]

21 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Agreed.  I think you ought to be getting full fuel pressure with ignition switched on.  The pump is working a bit, so the relay is doing something, suspect the pump.  Try a live feed or bypass the relay and see what happens.  Not intending to be critical of what you guys are doing btw. we all work different ways and I wasn't there.

As I understand it the 827 came from the seller with a spare fuel pump rattling around in the boot (along with some other bits) That would make me suspicious straight away,  was there already a question mark over the fuel pump and a spare was obtained before the Rover was sold? 

The previous owner of the Rover removed the air box from under the battery tray, maybe there was an earth from the starter relay that was unbolted too? He mentioned something about arcing? 

I wish I could’ve hung around a bit longer and got stuck into it more. I love getting to the bottom of my mysteries like this.

I was reading this thread, similar symptoms but no spark and it still cranked on the key., turned out to be a bad fuel pump. 

 

https://www.mg-rover.org/threads/1989-sterling-827sli-crank-no-start.874076/page-2?nested_view=1&sortby=oldest

 

[Mr Pastry]

1 minute ago, Lankytim said:

As I understand it the 827 came from the seller with a spare fuel pump rattling around in the boot (along with some other bits) That would make me suspicious straight away,  was there already a question mark over the fuel pump and a spare was obtained before the Rover was sold? 

Quite possibly, but I always tend to assume the previous owner was an idiot until proved otherwise!

[Lankytim]

27 minutes ago, shampooefficient said:

Never worked on one of these but if the fuel filter is accessible, worth having a look to see if its a rusted pile of profanity? 

The fuel filter is on the bulkhead (or I think that’s what it is) it looked fine but might be worth checking again. It was the banjo bolt on top of the filter I unbolted to see if any fuel was present. 

[Schaefft]

Fuel pressure would definitely build up with ignition on and spray out the fuel line. Just jump the fuel pump relay and see how much is coming out. Perfectly possible the pump is close to dead, or maybe it just needs fuel!

[Mr Pastry]

20 minutes ago, Lankytim said:

The previous owner of the Rover removed the air box from under the battery tray, maybe there was an earth from the starter relay that was unbolted too? He mentioned something about arcing? 

Diagram suggests connector C46.  Might respond to contact cleaner, or just run an new earth..

 

[Noel Tidybeard]

strange that it wouldn't run on the Cosby-in-a-can

[stuboy]

Slightly off topic.. but stole pics from fb's page cydsam.. in Wiltshire...

[Zelandeth]

6 hours ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

strange that it wouldn't run on the Cosby-in-a-can

I have come across engines which just don't play well with it before.  No idea why, but some just don't.  Have seen it both on petrol and diesel engines, and never really understood it.

It's a shame this is just a little too far to be easily get to/from without needing to book it into the diary as a major event, as this is exactly the sort of mystery that I quite enjoy trying to get to the bottom of.  

Regarding the lack of fuel pressure - it may seem a daft question, but we are sure that there's actually fuel in the tank aren't we?  If there is, whether it's still flammable is another question if it's been in there a while.

The injectors may well be gummed up a bit, though that's not an issue I've ever personally run into unless it's been on engines which have been sitting for many, many years - though that was mostly during tinkering on things prior to the arrival of ethanol in our fuels, admittedly.

It really does sound like progress is being made now though.  A second set of eyes can sometimes prove bloody invaluable, especially if you've fallen into a rut in the enthusiasm department on a project.

[Lankytim]

10 hours ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

strange that it wouldn't run on the Cosby-in-a-can

I was expecting something to happen, usually I get burnt eyebrows at least. Perhaps it was flooded and the plugs weren’t producing a spark. 
 

The fuel exiting the fuel filter at least tasted like petrol. Degraded fuel smells a bit of lemons and has an odd colour and it certainly looked /smelled fine.