project Rover P4 110 - Gone

[High Jetter]

2 minutes ago, SiC said:

Ended up going plant shopping

Dumper? 360?

[SiC]

Just now, N Dentressangle said:

Copycat 😉

Maybe have a go in mine to put you off?

It'll probably make me want one even more and I'll switch into that mode where I can't but think about buying one every moment of the day! A dangerous thing as I end up buying one that inevitably needs far too much work when I need to hold out for a relatively sound example. 

[SiC]

1 minute ago, High Jetter said:

Dumper? 360?

Unfortunately not that type of plant. 

 

 

[High Jetter]

Oh, green

[Noel Tidybeard]

hmmm would an 1850 fit in a spitnothing?🤔

[N Dentressangle]

It would:

https://www.clubtriumph.co.uk/forums/topic/11282-tr7-engine-into-a-spitfire/

but there are better choices. Triumph's own 6cyl if you want stay old tech, or MX5 / Zetec if you'd rather have modern.

Might as well buy an MX5 in the first place, I'd say. Any more power than the 1500 makes would put you backwards through a hedge very quickly, without mucho chassis / brake upgrades too.

[SiC]

The 1300 (and the 1500 with more work) can be made pretty fruity with a hot cam and some light engine work. Iirc 100bhp isn't too unreasonable. At which point you're at the limit of the suspension and chassis setup. Not far off MX5 power too without the hassles of a conversion.

My ideal Spitfire would be one with a GT6 engine setup grafted in. Sometimes see them for sale and they usually fetch a premium because of it. Interestingly they usually go for less than an equivalent GT6. 

[Rocket88]

9 minutes ago, SiC said:

The 1300 (and the 1500 with more work) can be made pretty fruity with a hot cam and some light engine work. Iirc 100bhp isn't too unreasonable. At which point you're at the limit of the suspension and chassis setup. Not far off MX5 power too without the hassles of a conversion.

My ideal Spitfire would be one with a GT6 engine setup grafted in. Sometimes see them for sale and they usually fetch a premium because of it. Interestingly they usually go for less than an equivalent GT6. 

1500 isn’t the best of engines….

[N Dentressangle]

41 minutes ago, Rocket88 said:

1500 isn’t the best of engines….

No, it's not. In some ways it's a shame the heart transplant the Spit gave to the Midget wasn't the other way around. A tuned 1275 is a decent engine with plenty of poke, and coupled to the Triumph O/D gearbox would be fine in a Spit.

[SiC]

3 hours ago, Rocket88 said:

1500 isn’t the best of engines….

No it's not but as said, it's possible to get more (reliable) power out of them with more work than a 1300. Also keeping a 1500 tuned for low end torque as they don't like the revs. Which is actually useful for a road engine (unlike a race engine) as they won't be screaming for long periods.

https://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstuff/performancedata/III_whichengine.htm

 

[SiC]

Hnnnnnng.

Needs some work but that chassis looks superb.

Anyone want a P4 110?

[SiC]

P4 owes me £2750 after new tyres, servo, master and hoses. I'd need to get most of that back to justify being able to change..

[adw1977]

Less than 48 hours after saying you needed to actually get out to shows in the P4, it's up for sale! 

[N Dentressangle]

2 hours ago, SiC said:

Hnnnnnng.

Needs some work but that chassis looks superb.

Anyone want a P4 110?

Why is the sill bolted on in the penultimate pic?

Some parts look v good, others more cobbled together.

It's a project, though, which will take a few months to sort out. Want another project?

[SiC]

7 minutes ago, N Dentressangle said:

It's a project, though, which will take a few months to sort out. Want another project?

That's the major reason it's not winging its way to me already. If it was something simple to sort like this P4 was (e.g. brakes and tune up), then it would have been an easy buy. But I do like something to fiddle with a tad before I go driving. 

There is also this one who wants far too much imo as it's a bit crusty around the edges. Currently on eBay with it still bidding at under 2k but reserve not met. I wonder if the reserve is set realistically. (I'm not quite the highest bidder atm either!)

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/128504523388323/

I wish the weather would sort itself out though as I'd like to give the P4 a proper evening spin. However it's blowing a gale, bloody cold and even hailed earlier too. All of which don't make an enjoyable trot around back lanes. 

There was the weekly car meet tonight too. Again not worth the bother going with the weather being so crud. 

[N Dentressangle]

5 minutes ago, SiC said:

There is also this one who wants far too much imo as it's a bit crusty around the edges. Currently on eBay with it still bidding at under 2k but reserve not met. I wonder if the reserve is set realistically. (I'm not quite the highest bidder atm either!)

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/128504523388323/

I can help you there.

I've met the bloke who's selling that - bought a seat base off him a couple of months ago. He's an older guy (60's somewhere?) who had a business restoring Triumphs and has retired. All his stuff's in some old farm sheds near Malmesbury, I've been in them. He seemed very realistic about prices to me, and mostly just wanted stuff out from under his feet now he's retired.

I'd go and have a look and a haggle with him if you fancy it.

[SiC]

I plan to go for a good drive in this at the weekend. Weather is looking good. 

Problem is, as ever, my mind has drifted now this is almost sorted. 🙃

Note almost sorted. Again it's almost all there apart from the throttle linkage sticking on light throttle and that front wing really.

But looking at Spitfires has jiggled that part of the brain that wants them. It wants them so badly (always has done but it's reminded me even more so). 😬

I'm in no rush as I haven't found bought a replacement yet, but I guess it's effectively up for sale. Certainly stuff I may jump on if this did sell. I imagine there may not be a huge amount of interest from here though. 

[Zelandeth]

Oh there's quite a substantial amount of interest - at that price I'd have (assuming I didn't hate how it drove, which I highly doubt I would) had your arm off, but I absolutely completely totally don't have space!

Anything that comes in now needs to fill the role the Caddy is currently doing but in a more comfortable way.  Which means it also needs to be something I can comfortably hand out to non car-enthusiast family members for occasional >150 mile runs to their office.  I suspect if I handed them the keys to this I'd wind up sleeping in it.

Which is a shame as I'm finding in the last few years that there's a real strong want growing for a proper old British classic.  Knowing someone as thorough as you has already been through this one would mean I'd happily buy it in a heartbeat if I had somewhere to put it.

I don't even mind it being a little shabby outside, just means I'd not be afraid to park it in a supermarket car park.

Absolutely can understand the want for a Spitfire too.  I've had a major hankering for one since I had a go of a friend's one back in 2005 or so.  It's got to be in a bright colour though.  They're one of those cars which looks wholly unimpressive on paper, but just manages to be a huge amount of fun to drive in the real world.  Again, if I had the room there would probably be either one of them or an MGB already on the drive.

[83C]

There would definitely be some interest from me, wish I'd been quick enough to jump on HMC's P4 when he sold it. 

[camryv6]

Correct me if i am wrong, but i think you like to work on these cars more than driving them 

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Which means it also needs to be something I can comfortably hand out to non car-enthusiast family members for occasional >150 mile runs to their office.  I suspect if I handed them the keys to this I'd wind up sleeping in it.

Surely the Renault 25 can fill that role, I can understand them not wanting to have to deal with the Lada Riva, but the R25 should be lovely to drive for anyone from any background enthusiast or not  

(or is the problem there that no one trusts a 35 year old french car?)

 

I think it would be awesome if you got this Rover P4!  again like the Caviler it would also give you a 4 door vehicle that is Historic Vehicle taxation class and means it would be exempt from a lot of things! nice stress free ownership in that regard, no costly road tax, no MOT and no emission zones to worry about  

[SiC]

1 hour ago, camryv6 said:

Correct me if i am wrong, but i think you like to work on these cars more than driving them 

Yes! I use the analogy of my wife baking cakes.

She loves baking cakes and is very good at it. She'll happily bake and make cakes for friends and family. While she doesn't mind eating them, she isn't that bothered about eating the ones she has made for friends/family.

Me and old cars is just like that. I enjoy fixing cars and getting better at it (baking the cake). I don't mind driving but I don't enormously love it nowadays (eating the cake). 

I bought this as the engineering interests me the most. Figuring out how and why things are put together on this facinates me. Problem solving issues that it has and solving them tickles the dopamine receptors.

I'd love to be a mechanic. But unfortunately the profession is both poorly paid and tough on the body. So I chose a different route that allows me to do it as a hobby. 

With driving it's has to be the right quiet road at the right time of day then it's ace. But the majority of the time it's to get from A to B while avoiding the amount of idiots on the road trying to kill you. All that makes driving often terribly boring and stressful.

[camryv6]

The above makes a lot of sense, and speaking as a mechanic now doing mostly MOT's you made the right career choice, but if i had your choice of cars i would still love to drive them a bit more

[dave j]

3 hours ago, SiC said:

Yes! I use the analogy of my wife baking cakes.

She loves baking cakes and is very good at it. She'll happily bake and make cakes for friends and family. While she doesn't mind eating them, she isn't that bothered about eating the ones she has made for friends/family.

Me and old cars is just like that. I enjoy fixing cars and getting better at it (baking the cake). I don't mind driving but I don't enormously love it nowadays (eating the cake). 

I bought this as the engineering interests me the most. Figuring out how and why things are put together on this facinates me. Problem solving issues that it has and solving them tickles the dopamine receptors.

I'd love to be a mechanic. But unfortunately the profession is both poorly paid and tough on the body. So I chose a different route that allows me to do it as a hobby. 

With driving it's has to be the right quiet road at the right time of day then it's ace. But the majority of the time it's to get from A to B while avoiding the amount of idiots on the road trying to kill you. All that makes driving often terribly boring and stressful.

I know the feeling. After spending quite a few years restoring my Beetle I am enjoying driving it but there nothing else to do to it other than clean it! 

Luckily the camper needs bodywork to give me something to do but I am tempted to flog the Beetle and get another project

[SiC]

There is something I've found that I'm quite tempted with and I simply have too many cars to be able to keep this too - last in, first out. So if there is serious interest on here then its for sale.

On the open market I'd thought it'd sell reasonably easily for £3250 which is about what it owes me.

If it doesn't sell and I miss out, it's not the end of the world. It won't stop me looking as I now have Spitfire in the brain. 

[SiC]

Bugger. I was hoping to go to this tomorrow morning for its first proper decent long run out.

I'll just have to go for a merry potter later this evening when the roads have quietened off. 

 

[SiC]

I hoped to get some time on this and maybe a drive during the day. However my sister, nephew and brother-in-law came over so I (had to) spend some time with them.

My nephew loves cars but had no interest in the Rover (he loves my MGB). Instead he pushed all the buttons in the TT and said it was a fantastic car. 🤣
(Everything is fantastic to him at the moment though...)
Thinking about it, the TT is an older car than my MGB would have been at the same age. I iz old.


Anyway I wanted to get the throttle linkage sorted ready for a drive tomorrow. That meant some night fettling.

The plan this time was to increase the tension on the linkage by preloading the pedal spring. It probably was set up correctly before but I had this all undone when I took the carb off to get to the brake servo.

Getting to the carb linkage required removing the air cleaner assembly. Only two nuts on the carb but they're fiddly ones to get to.


Once off, I set the pedal to slightly on and reset the bolt. The connection between the carb and pedal is basically a spring type thing in that black plastic tube. So the pedal off keeps tension to hold the throttle closed. It took a couple of attempts to give enough tension while allowing full range of movement on the pedal.


There is also a spring on the pedal linkage. I moved it down a hole to provide a greater tension on the spring.


Starting it up and it seemed to work fine now. No hanging throttle when pressed lightly. Also reminded me how utterly quiet and smooth these engines are. Genuinely smoother and quieter next to it than the TT 1.8t.

However it was pretty smokey out the back. I dismissed it as just condensation from all the wet we've had. However after shutting the engine off, there was a steady stream of fuel out the carb.


As the float bowl wasn't overflowing, it meant that the float needle must not be shutting off fully and properly. Removing the lid of the carb to get to the needle is easy enough. Basically one big banjo bolt on the top.


Blowing through while holding it shut found that sometimes it let a tiny bit of pressure out. So needle assembly.

I pulled it apart and the whole thing is a bit manky. The needle valve itself actually looked okay. My experience is they get a ridge and stop working properly. However this looked brand new. There was shite inside the lid and needle seat though.


Raiding my new parts box for the Midget found one of two float needle kits. Only problem is that the Midget is spring loaded and according to SU carbs website, the P4 isn't spring loaded.



But guess what? SU put the wrong needle assembly in the packaging! So despite being the wrong packet, it's actually the needle I needed. Also replaced the float chamber gasket with a supplied new one.


Turning the ignition back on had the usual reassuring clicks from the SU pump and then it held a pressure. A good minute or two at least it held.

Hopefully this is the carb now sorted. Previous owner did say he had carb flooding and put it down to the float having a dent in it. I don't know if he replaced the float or not but it seemed to float just fine for me. Not easy to remove as Brass (not magnetic) and no way of pulling it out without removing the carb and flipping upside down.

Next set on changing the grille. The one on the car sticks out from the front. Looks ugly and wrong. Also held in by a modern torx screw.


A replacement was supplied with the car, so just a case of 4 bolts to fit this new one.



Fit is much better.


While I was under the bonnet, I remembered I needed to check which rotor arm and condenser was in the dizzy.



Garbage.

Replaced with genuine Distributor Doctor parts.


Anyone reading any of my posts regularly will know my hate for these condensers with the rubber bung at the end. Sold everywhere and under different brands, they give classic British cars an unnecessary bad name for unreliability. There is a metal disc behind this rubber seal and it relies on the seal to provide pressure for electrical contact. But it doesn't work properly. You can pull the end and see contact being lost and going open circuit.

Distributor Doctor has soldered terminals at the end instead. Works far better and pretty much never gives trouble.

These cheap generic condensers basically aren't if they are going to fail but simply when. The first time I realised how awful they are was when I broke down in a dodgy area of Bristol in my MGB.


Fingers crossed the weather will be pleasant tomorrow. I'd like a drive and then give it a good clean with t-cut polish. Try bringing back some of the shine to it.

[SiC]

I went out early to start this and to give it a quick run around before tidying up the garage.

Churn churn churn churn ...
No start.

Hmm.

More choke?

Churn churn churn churn

Nope

Outside smelt very petrol like.

My neighbour came back from wherever he had been and, despite no real car knowledge, giving his verdict that it's moisture. Tbh given it was raining it wasn't a bad diagnosis.

Stuck the plug tester on and cranked the engine while my neighbour looked. Weak spark apparently.

Well at least there is one.

Looked under the dizzy cap. All dry.
I did try the old rotor arm just in case but no difference.

Hmm.

Check the plug connections. All look dry.

Check the king lead connection. That's pretty awful.


I took the screw out and gave it a good sand. Also cut the king lead connection and make a fresh connection.

Checked the plugs. Pretty carbon up but dry.


Cleaned them all up and tried starting again.

Nothing.

FFS

Well I know there is a spark for sure. So time to check the carb.

Took the air cleaner assembly off AGAIN. Only those two nuts but only a small bit of room to undo a tiny bit at a time. Also the other has the stud come out with it making it more of a pain.

With the air cleaner off, the mouth of the carb seemed fine.

Time to quickly check the float bowl


Ah! Completely empty

Looking at the float needle assembly, the needle was stuck in. Was the new needle faulty? While I've found SU parts good quality (unlike most new classic car parts), we really can never dismiss faulty parts. Not least they managed to package it incorrectly!

Put it all back together and turned the ignition on. No clicking from the pump.

Hmm!

Took the float bowl lid off and it's still empty.

Then a light bulb lit in the old nogging and I realised that the metal bracket that pushes against the needle valve I bent slightly when putting it back on.

This is how it was


I bent it roughly to the same shape as was before in that photo. I probably should have been more accurate as the level is quite important but often these things you can get away with...

Put it all back together and tried again.

Success!

Only two hours wasted.

Decided to hoover the inside. The carpet is very thread bare but it fits the style of the car. Unfortunately the last owner stuck the back carpet in the washing machine with the inevitable expected outcome. So it's missing one.





I was now ready for a drive. Except the indicators stopped working. Not lighting at all.

It's not my day.

Anyway I checked the clacker. Took a while to locate it. I thought it was behind the dash so I undone all that again but couldn't find it. While doing that the screwdriver rolled off.
Picked it up and looked up.


Ah! There it is.

Shorted the terminals and it lit dimly. Reconnected the clacker and it started working again. Success!

Buttoned the dash back up and set off for a drive. Except the flasher unit stopped working again.

I didn't have a three pin unit to hand but I did have a two pin unit. Connecting the flasher module didn't do anything. Also shorting it didn't do anything either.

Consulting the wiring diagram I had in an Autodata book showed the fuel gauge, brake light and reversing light are on the same circuit. Stuck it in reverse and no light. Fuel gauge wasn't on the bottom peg either. I think the float is broken but the sender is okay so it just shows minimum. I'm waiting for the fuel to get lower before I take the sender out to investigate.

Anyway next stop is the fuse box.


Okay well that's obviously the problem. Not completely clear from the photo but the fuse isn't in the holder. The holder was all misshaped too. I bent it back to shape with pliers. Then dropped and broke the fuse.

The fuse in there was a 35a but I only had 20a fuses. Given what was on the circuit, I think 35a is too high anyway.


With it all working I gave it a run up and down the road. Everything seemed good. Especially with the throttle pedal working properly now and not sticking.

[SiC]

At this point it was 6:50pm. The roads were starting to quieten off from the Easter mania. The road near mine tends to be a cut through when the motorway is shut or gridlocked. Not somewhere you want to pull out onto with an unknown (to me) car. But once off that road I can potter around in my own time on quieter back lanes. Again it can get busy with people racing around but on a Sunday night, it's far less likely to come across someone else.

I checked the tyres and they were all spot on except the front left which was 20psi rather than 36psi. Front right was 36psi. Rears 30psi. What is weird is that I asked the garage to do all 30psi and I don't remember correcting the pressures. Except they're almost all perfect given the location...
However that front left is either leaking or hopefully not pumped up enough originally. I'll keep an eye on it and if it keeps leaking, go back and ask for it to have some tyre sealant on.

With that all done, I went out for a jolly good drive.




Seemed to be running very well. After driving so many old cars that rattle like a ball in a tin can, it's weird to have such a smooth and quiet unit in an old lump.

I think the car is quite imposing when approaching others. At least several SUVs I approached all pulled in when I was barrelling towards them!

Gearing is a bit weird. First is the usual old car super short. Second being what a modern first would be. Third just seemed to be a gear existing solely to get to forth. Basically you can drive around in fourth almost everywhere. Overdrive worked great too. Only engaged in fourth gear which is normal. Also when you let off, there is a switch on the pedal to disengage the overdrive. Many disable this as it's a bit annoying but mine is still active. Gear locations are a bit difficult to find. Not helped by the complex and long linkage these have. All slot in nicely but don't like to be rushed. Especially 4th gear needs a half second pause before slotting in to not crunch it. She's 60 years old after all.

Gearing seems to be 10-20mph is for 3rd gear. 30 to 40mph is 4th. 40mph+ is overdrive. No rev counter so going by what the engine note was. Speeds are very approximate as the needle swings about a fair old bit.

Handling is surprisingly good. I mean there is zero feel through the wheel but you can hustle it around surprisingly well. You have to watch out when turning on sharpish corners (i.e. into a junction) as you can run out of wheel turning. Basically you need to wheel shuffle otherwise you'll find your hand running out of ability to turn the wheel around enough.

Reasonably sprightly old girl. Hills are managed okay. Not as good as I expected but then there is 120bhp to shift 1500kg and that was from new.

If you listen carefully to this video you will hear a slight miss/stumble every so often. Not entirely sure what's causing that. Perhaps those old plug leads don't make great contact?

Also there is a blow from the exhaust. I already knew this as when it was burning brake fluid, it was smoking out of the hole in the silencer. I'll have a look sometime but I might just chuck some exhaust putty on for now.

So the verdict?
Put it this way, if someone offered the right money under my nose to buy it I wouldn't say no. However I can wait just that bit longer for a Spitfire.
I'm quite content with this old bus for now.

[N Dentressangle]

Nice burble to the old Rover IoE six. Wonder if it's any less thirsty when it's not in a LWB Series?