Writing on the wall for some manufacturers?

[Metal Guru]

8 hours ago, TheIsleofShite said:

Subaru, surprised they are still going in the UK

I’ve had a Subaru since 2004. For the first time this year, they never bothered to send me a service reminder. I think they’ve given up already.

Theres only 3 cars in the U.K., all SUVs , close enough that you wouldn’t care which one you had, only with hybrid engine of modest power with a CVT! 
You'd spent 30 seconds in the showroom before saying “nah!”

[sierraman]

I hate to say it but I think Ford are finished. They don’t really actively (apart from the Mach E) seem to come out with a new competitively priced EV, their whole business model has historically been affordable cars for mr average. Maybe they know that it can’t be done and are waiting for the inevitable. 

Vauxhall, why they’re persisting with the brand I don’t know for one country only. Sense would say scrap that and call them Opel as maybe an alternative to Peugeot. But then again that was BL mentality making two brands aimed at the same people so if you were really hard nosed you’d fuck them off completely and just retain their R&D. 

MG, I can’t stand these things, it was just bringing back a brand known to anyone over 35 as a fundamentally crap product. Unfortunately whilst ever the Post Office is open and a shuttle is needed to go from the Doctors to the Post Office to Morrison’s for a Flying Start breakfast then people will keep buying them.

[tooSavvy]

9 hours ago, HarmonicCheeseburger said:

I really think MG should re-make the 1980's Metro, but as an EV for under £10k. 

Kinda lyke.......

 

[artdjones]

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Vauxhall is doomed. There's great brand recognition in the UK, whereas Opel haven't been around for over 30 years. The only additional cost to making an Opel into a Vauxhall is the grille badging. They will just be Peugeot based in future.

[AnnoyingPentium]

24 minutes ago, artdjones said:

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Vauxhall is doomed. There's great brand recognition in the UK, whereas Opel haven't been around for over 30 years. The only additional cost to making an Opel into a Vauxhall is the grille badging. They will just be Peugeot based in future.

Based on the amount of new Vauxhalls around here, I don't think they're doomed. They seem to have covered a lot of bases in their range unlike other manufacturers.

[GeordieInExile]

35 minutes ago, artdjones said:

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Vauxhall is doomed. There's great brand recognition in the UK, whereas Opel haven't been around for over 30 years. The only additional cost to making an Opel into a Vauxhall is the grille badging. They will just be Peugeot based in future.

I think they'll kill off the entire thing, Vauxhall and Opel - Vauxhalls do far better in the UK than Opels do in Europe iirc and I just can't see Peugeot keeping the whole show on the road purely for the benefit of the UK market, especially in a post-Brexit world. Seems sensible to me for Peugeot to kill it off and cannibalise it for R&D, workforce and factories if so desired.

[lesapandre]

3 hours ago, New POD said:

And fake the crash test results?  Actually I'd like to see that. I wonder if they marketed it with, the tag line

If you crash you die, but then you didn't wear a face mask or have the Covid vaccinations, and you had Covid twice and survived, so your probably going to be fine. 

Or 

MG Metro, because you're  lucky and a brilliant driver. 

It's traditional - Autocar's criticism of the 1950's Austin A30 brake performance met with CEO Leonard Lord's response of "Only a poor driver needs good brakes".

[ProgRocker]

I watched an interesting video several weeks ago on a US based YouTube channel about Honda vs Hyundai.

The channel (can't remember it's name) is more geared towards performance but even the crux of it seemed to be that Honda's sports car offerings were losing it's edge whereas Hyundai's were gaining traction. If you pardon the pun.

Iirc, they compared a Civic Type R vs Hyundai i30N. 

[artdjones]

1 hour ago, GeordieInExile said:

I think they'll kill off the entire thing, Vauxhall and Opel - Vauxhalls do far better in the UK than Opels do in Europe iirc and I just can't see Peugeot keeping the whole show on the road purely for the benefit of the UK market, especially in a post-Brexit world. Seems sensible to me for Peugeot to kill it off and cannibalise it for R&D, workforce and factories if so desired.

Perhaps they should kill off Citroen. Opel sold more cars than them in 2020 and reportedly made a profit.

[sierraman]

1 hour ago, GeordieInExile said:

I think they'll kill off the entire thing, Vauxhall and Opel - Vauxhalls do far better in the UK than Opels do in Europe iirc and I just can't see Peugeot keeping the whole show on the road purely for the benefit of the UK market, especially in a post-Brexit world. Seems sensible to me for Peugeot to kill it off and cannibalise it for R&D, workforce and factories if so desired.

I don’t think they’ll be wanting the factories in the U.K. when it can be done cheaper and equally badly in somewhere like Slovakia. 

[tooSavvy]

10 hours ago, carburettor said:

Why the police stuck with the insignia I’ll never know, I think they are awful, diesels with oil pick up pipes not picking up oil?  Crap gearboxes (from Fiat I believe) specced by GM to have bearings made from chocolate.

The thing that I always remember about Peugeot is Chrysler, Coventry. Peugeot took over Roots and Chrysler Europe, made the 206 at Coventry then closed the factory and took it all to France for the 207 if you ask me that’s what they will do with the next Astra, assuming they make another one, I think that will be the end for Vauxhall. 
Ford also, to stop making the Mondeo after this model ends production apparently. They have next to zero investment in EV’s and are relying on VW until their $7bn plan gets some help from the US govt. I think that speaks volumes, along with the $15bn loan they took but 🤷‍♂️ 

Suzuki and Subaru have agreements with Toyota, and exchanged part shares I think. My daughter was building the Suzuki Swace or something it’s called, at Burnaston. It’s a rebadged Toyota Corolla.

oh, and anyone fancy a Sony car? 
im sure I read they they’re getting in on the act, probably for autonomous vehicles but again  🤷‍♂️ 
autonomous cars now won’t they be exciting* (well, they might be when they crash)

The last Alfa was the fabulous 4 collaboration of Saab, Fiat, Lancia and Alfa as far as I (am concerned) was aware, the Alfa 75. Even the pre-facelift 155 was based on an extended  Tipo floor pan wasn’t it?

 I can’t see Renault going bust, the French government owns a large part of them don’t they? 
Not too sure about Infiniti though 😬

I can see something going bang though, too many cheap Chinese imports for some manufacturers to compete with.

New Chinese EV manufacturers  Huawei and Xiaomi have backing from god knows where to start making EV’s. A company called Baidu and Geely automotive (owner of Volvo) have invested $400bn in the EV industry, that makes Ford ($7bn) & GM’s ($11 bn) look like Mickey Mouse money, sadly.

Even more sadly, unless someone (other than the Chinese) can come up with a synthetic and human friendly alternative fuel I think it’s all too late, but I’m 62 this year so 🤷‍♂️ or care, I’m just going to buy something quite soon, fancy an S type Jag, but I think swmbo would kill me.

* these are the mutterings of a man of very close to pensionable age, assuming they don’t keep moving the goalposts.
Further to that they are mutterings and musings of someone who is frequently described as an senile old git, it’s almost 2am and I can’t fucking sleep.

 

Yes...... Weighing up FREE BusPass/Petrol +maint equation ATM*

64.... So *two years SantaPod/badermatic start sequences to enjoy, meanwhile 😎

[carburettor]

4 hours ago, sierraman said:

I hate to say it but I think Ford are finished. They don’t really actively (apart from the Mach E) seem to come out with a new competitively priced EV, their whole business model has historically been affordable cars for mr average. Maybe they know that it can’t be done and are waiting for the inevitable. 

Vauxhall, why they’re persisting with the brand I don’t know for one country only. Sense would say scrap that and call them Opel as maybe an alternative to Peugeot. But then again that was BL mentality making two brands aimed at the same people so if you were really hard nosed you’d fuck them off completely and just retain their R&D. 

MG, I can’t stand these things, it was just bringing back a brand known to anyone over 35 as a fundamentally crap product. Unfortunately whilst ever the Post Office is open and a shuttle is needed to go from the Doctors to the Post Office to Morrison’s for a Flying Start breakfast then people will keep buying them.

When Ford stop making the Mondeo , best sales year they sold 320,000 worst was 2020, they sold 20,000 I think. The problem for me is it’s arguably a very good (for a modern) car. Aren't they all made in Cologne? 
when they stop building it I think they will ship VW hybrid/EV vehicle parts to that factory to enable them to cut some costs.

Totally agree with MG, I’ve seen 6 in the car park at the same time MG ZS comes with 3 years free servicing full English breakfast sat Morrisons at the special finance rate of 4.9%. Its arguably better than the Sangyong man pong (Tivoli) or whatever it’s called.

 

 

[AnnoyingPentium]

There's a fair amount of ZSs here, one is an EV too and belongs to the father of a lad I went to school with.

[carburettor]

13 minutes ago, tooSavvy said:

Yes...... Weighing up FREE BusPass/Petrol +maint equation ATM*

64.... So *two years SantaPod/badermatic start sequences to enjoy, meanwhile 😎

My dad, at 87 years old sold his (long range) Enzian Rheintochter  Mercedes last summer. No word of a lie he has with lots, and lots of help from me purchased 3 electric disability scooters, an open small wheel one, a tricycle (absolute death trap) and he now has a covered scooter which is an a nightmare, no heater so condensation builds up lovely in the light rain meaning he cannot see out of the Perspex windows, there is no suspension so he feels every bump and the H-D batteries were apparently at 140% when he bought it 3 months ago, now they are on 110% . How this is even possible is totally beyond my comprehension.

Fuck it! Do not give up your freedom, ever! Well, not until you kill someone*

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Vauxhall are strange. We had an Astra turbo on loan a couple of years ago, which replaced a loaned Hyundai Tucson. The Hyundai was awful - cheap interior plastics and bargain basement carpets, woefully underpowered, asthmatic petrol lump and generally ungainly. 

I assumed I'd equally hate the Peugeot  Vauxhall Astra which replaced it.

But I didn't.

Yes, the build quality was worse than the Hyundai. Yes, it's not even a 'proper' Vauxhall any more. What surprised me though was the way that thing drove, along with the toys on board. Heated everything, full leather and boy did that car shift. It was only a little 1400 turbo if I remember correctly but it reminded me in many ways of my old Cavalier Gsi from years before but looked more of a sleeper. Handling was sublime too. 

I genuinely didn't want to give it back, which was quite the turnaround from my initial assumption of 'all modern Vauxhalls are shite'. Brilliant little cars!

[New POD]

11 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Vauxhall are strange. We had an Astra turbo on loan a couple of years ago, which replaced a loaned Hyundai Tucson. The Hyundai was awful - cheap interior plastics and bargain basement carpets, woefully underpowered, asthmatic petrol lump and generally ungainly. 

I assumed I'd equally hate the Peugeot  Vauxhall Astra which replaced it.

But I didn't.

Yes, the build quality was worse than the Hyundai. Yes, it's not even a 'proper' Vauxhall any more. What surprised me though was the way that thing drove, along with the toys on board. Heated everything, full leather and boy did that car shift. It was only a little 1400 turbo if I remember correctly but it reminded me in many ways of my old Cavalier Gsi from years before but looked more of a sleeper. Handling was sublime too. 

I genuinely didn't want to give it back, which was quite the turnaround from my initial assumption of 'all modern Vauxhalls are shite'. Brilliant little cars!

Can I marry you. 

[Bren]

I have never had a brand new car. And never will. They are soulless and far too expensive.

It's difficult to say which companies will flounder - I will say when a company like ford stops producing the mondeo then things are not good.

As for EV's for around £10k it will never happen - the cost of raw materials will keep on going up.

[Crackers]

8 hours ago, New POD said:

I honestly hope Honda die.  I have nothing but hatred after owning an accord. 

Bit strong coming from a man who thinks the answer to every "what car should I buy" is an Astra J, when it invariably isn't.

[angle]

19 hours ago, Timewaster said:

There used to be two Honda dealerships (Reading and Newbury) near me but they closed the Newbury one a while back. That doesn't seem like a brand that's thriving.

I live in Bristol. Its the biggest city in the Southwest, and one of the biggest in the UK. Its only Fiat / Alfa / Jeep dealer went bankrupt in 2019, and hasn't been replaced. If I was mental enough to buy any of those brands new, I'd have to go to Wales now. 

And yeah, lots of people in this thread saying young people buy Fiats. They do, from Motorpoint, 18 months after they've been sold onto rental fleets at a massive discount. Is there any Fiat or Alfa that anyone sane would buy new with their own money without a gigantic discount? I mean, the Giulia Quadrifoglio is nice, but would you buy a new one at £70k?

[carburettor]

57 minutes ago, Bren said:

I have never had a brand new car. And never will. They are soulless and far too expensive.

It's difficult to say which companies will flounder - I will say when a company like ford stops producing the mondeo then things are not good.

As for EV's for around £10k it will never happen - the cost of raw materials will keep on going up.

Moar child Labour from sierra lonesome and chop suey Micky blue eyes land

i had a brand new Cinquecento in 1993, a Cunto in 1996 and a bMw  in 2017, all brand new.

the most efficient was arguably the bMw. with an 18% discount it was less than £21000, after extras and the (compulsory to get the discount 😕) finance it came to £25000. Upon selling I got £12000. So I lost more than the total price of a new in 2011 Fiat Cunto. 
Waste of money I hear you say? No, the prestige was totally awesome and the ultimate driving machine was so very ultimate it was an absolute pleasure*
What an utter and total waste of money.

a Manuel (que?) 1.8 (118d) I’d buy another one soon, as soon as hell freezes over twice and I win the lottery 3 times in a week. 😬

[Fumbler]

While pondering this I rembered that two local Honda dealerships closed- both we bought from recently. There was Collins Honda in Herstmonceux, then there was Redhill Honda in, erm, Redhill. They both closed about a year ago, just after having a refit, too.

[carburettor]

32 minutes ago, Fumbler said:

While pondering this I rembered that two local Honda dealerships closed- both we bought from recently. There was Collins Honda in Herstmonceux, then there was Redhill Honda in, erm, Redhill. They both closed about a year ago, just after having a refit, too.

Apparently in 2020 Honda spent €140 million on their F1 engine, im not sure if it was the internal combustion engine, I would have thought so because the whole “ lump” is called a power unit so I’m told. It seems pretty daft to me whilst closing branches, but then maybe General Motors was right, this country is fu**ed and so is europe, because of cheap imports.

[Fumbler]

2 minutes ago, carburettor said:

Apparently in 2020 Honda spent €140 million on their F1 engine, im not sure if it was the internal combustion engine, I would have thought so because the whole “ lump” is called a power unit so I’m told. It seems pretty daft to me whilst closing branches, but then maybe General Motors was right, this country is fu**ed and so is europe.

I don't know if both departments draw money from the same pool. Either way, I think it's reflective of poor sales they've had in my area. Both dealerships were modestly sized, one of them a few miles outside town as well which didn't help. In fact, the closest Honda dealership to my house is quite a large one in an industrial estate, so I suspect that's probably where most of the sales are happening.

[Poweredbyhopealone]

19 hours ago, grogee said:

Alternative views are available:

The Jazz customer base is getting larger, at least in the UK, USA and Japan where the population is trending towards older people. My stepmum's had three and is certain to have another as they gave her a bunch of flowers with her most recent one. It's the little things and all that. 

Civic spaceship was a backwards move compared to the predecessor which was genuinely innovative without being flashy. Spaceship one pissed off the customers with its split rear screen and bonkers instruments. And it was demonstrably less reliable. 

I don't know enough about the E sales to comment, but it looks nice.

EVs may not be a panacea for motoring's sins, but at least the infrastructure is already there.

Hydrogen isn't happening, it's always "ten years away". As Honda keeps proving!

Synthetic petrol won't burn clean enough for future requirements, CO and NOx are unavoidable with ICE engines unfortunately.

Just to wade into the Hydrogen fuel debate here because its one I have a vested interest in.

The technology is there, it works and its not a great deal more expensive than battery tech however, the lack of infrastructure and the lack of "green hydrogen" production means that at the moment its not viable for passenger cars on a large scale.

It already works with fleets of return to base vehicles as TFL are proving with their hydrogen bus fleet, because they have their own infrastructure and although not green, they buy hydrogen produced as a by-product from chemical production which isnt as bad as in terms of emissions as from other sources like methane reformation. Hydrogen vehicles will almost certainly take the HGV roles because the fuel is more energy dense than batteries at the moment. Hyundai (of course) are testing some at the moment on a large scale. I know Elon has the electric semi truck but unless he has found some workaround to the laws of physics which i'm not aware of the performance is going to be limited.

The synthetic fuel idea is a non-starter because whenever you burn anything in air you get NOx which we are realising recently is a great deal more damaging to the environment than we thought.

BEV's are pretty shortly going to be hobbled by materials costs. Lithium in particular is going stratospheric in price and of course it's not just vehicles which use this type of battery so honestly, like everything its going to come down to costs and what supporting infrastructure gets built first.

 

I'm doing an MSc in Renewable Energy Engineering,  AmA

[grogee]

10 minutes ago, Poweredbyhopealone said:

Just to wade into the Hydrogen fuel debate here because its one I have a vested interest in.

The technology is there, it works and its not a great deal more expensive than battery tech however, the lack of infrastructure and the lack of "green hydrogen" production means that at the moment its not viable for passenger cars on a large scale.

It already works with fleets of return to base vehicles as TFL are proving with their hydrogen bus fleet, because they have their own infrastructure and although not green, they buy hydrogen produced as a by-product from chemical production which isnt as bad as in terms of emissions as from other sources like methane reformation. Hydrogen vehicles will almost certainly take the HGV roles because the fuel is more energy dense than batteries at the moment. Hyundai (of course) are testing some at the moment on a large scale. I know Elon has the electric semi truck but unless he has found some workaround to the laws of physics which i'm not aware of the performance is going to be limited.

The synthetic fuel idea is a non-starter because whenever you burn anything in air you get NOx which we are realising recently is a great deal more damaging to the environment than we thought.

BEV's are pretty shortly going to be hobbled by materials costs. Lithium in particular is going stratospheric in price and of course it's not just vehicles which use this type of battery so honestly, like everything its going to come down to costs and what supporting infrastructure gets built first.

 

I'm doing an MSc in Renewable Energy Engineering,  AmA

Interesting points, to which I'd add a couple of things:

1) there's very little lithium in li-ion cells, despite the name. Although a rise won't be good news for manufacturers, it will create more demand for lithium which in turn may encourage more/better recycling of used cells (something the world is largely ignoring at present).

2) What you say about hydrogen is true. Unless it's generated by splitting water using 100% renewable energy, it's just shifting the problem somewhere else. Which brings me to

3) Infrastructure for electric cars is a short hop away from complete. After all, how many homes don't have electricity? Or electric street lamps outside? 

It's tricky for cities and flat dwellers I admit but not insurmountable. In contrast, hydrogen is a non-starter in terms of useable, ready infrastructure. There's a handful of pilot schemes like TRL and Honda and that's it. Why would you choose to invest in supplying hydrogen, when you could invest in the already accepted electric infrastructure?

Nobody can go and buy and use a hydrogen car today. Everybody can buy an electric car today. Some can even use it if they've got a suitable charge point to use. 

I readily admit that electricity production has its own environmental cost, but it does at least move the local NOx problem away from city centres. EVs are a step towards greener transport that are fully compatible with any future improvement in renewable supply. 

If only our twattish government would persue renewables...

[sierraman]

The problem you’ve got is that China control something like 50% of the worlds lithium production. That’s to say lithium is mined in all sorts of places but the controlling company is usually Chinese. Obviously this is likely to mean they’ll completely monopolise the supply at some point meaning they’ve pretty much got the supply aspect by the bollocks. Which is not good. 

[Timewaster]

17 minutes ago, grogee said:

3) Infrastructure for electric cars is a short hop away from complete. After all, how many homes don't have electricity? Or electric street lamps outside? 

I would say it is at least a fair jump rather than a short hop. In cities the capacity is probably there. But many cities underground cables are old and close to if not over capacity. 

I think the street light idea is a non starter. 

They run a 16a fuse from pretty small cables often daisy chained over great distances.  Households with 60a fuses are needing an upgrade to supply a car charger. 

I've seen some street lights running off little more than bell wire. 

[sierraman]

The Government are perpetually at ends to tell you how easy it will be and  how the National Grid will have no trouble coping. I couldn’t for a second imagine they’d be lying, I mean there’s no way they could be telling us any old shit to keep people happy. 

[DVee8]

6 hours ago, sierraman said:

I don’t think they’ll be wanting the factories in the U.K. when it can be done cheaper and equally badly in somewhere like Slovakia. 

Ummm, JLR are moving  some production from Slovakia back to the UK. 

[sierraman]

3 minutes ago, DVee8 said:

Ummm, JLR are moving  some production from Slovakia back to the UK. 

Interesting stuff, what’s the thinking behind that?