Ambitious towbars

[Faker]

1 hour ago, Talbot said:

Very interesting that on that form, from a pull at the side of the road, the only thing they are checking is axle loads, vehicle weight and train weight.  At no point do they consider the trailer weight as a separate item.

You are flogging a dead horse Talbot… it really isn’t that difficult to subtract one number from another chief

you will also notice that there is no combination weight available under section 5. 

[loserone]

13 minutes ago, Faker said:

You are flogging a dead horse

I don't think there's been anything sourced which says as such yet though?

[LightBulbFun]

47 minutes ago, Faker said:

You are flogging a dead horse Talbot… it really isn’t that difficult to subtract one number from another chief

but show me where that is legally defined? show me where it explicitly says for example "a vehicles max towing weight, regardless of actual laden weight of the towing vehicle, is defined as the Max Gross Vehicle Weight subtracted from the Max Gross Train Weight as shown on the vehicles ratings plate"

 

for example I can state, that an Invalid Carriage weighing no more then 306kg does not require an MOT regardless of age etc and someone could call bollocks 

 

but I can back up my claim by the V112 form, which states such

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6761486f1ca3ec0a49e18fa0/v112-declaration-of-exemption-from-mot.pdf

which I can then further backup/prove by going to the source for that, which is Section 6 of The Motor Vehicles (Tests) Regulations 1981

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1981/1694/regulation/6

which states

Quote

Exemptions:

(x)a vehicle (including a cycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power) which is adapted, and used or kept on a road, for invalids, and which—

(i)does not exceed 306 kilograms in weight unladen, or

(ii)exceeds 306 kilograms but does not exceed 510 kilograms in weight unladen, and are supplied and maintained by or on behalf of the Department of Health and Social Security, the Scottish Office or the Welsh Office;

ergo its an *indisputable* fact when I say "an invalid carriage weighing no more then 306kg is an MOT exempt vehicle"

 

 

this is what I and @Talbot are looking for with regards to this whole towing thing, and additionally im looking for what the rules n regs are for old vehicles which pre-date the whole "ratings on the chassis plate" thing

[Faker]

I haven’t had the time to sift though the documentation for the fine print or subsections (work and all that stuff) but I will produce it.

[Faker]

19 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

this is what I and @Talbot are looking for with regards to this whole towing thing, and additionally im looking for what the rules n regs are for old vehicles which pre-date the whole "ratings on the chassis plate" thing

There’s towing legislation going back to 1912! I’m not going back that far!! 🤣

 

 

[chaseracer]

Just a thought...

...any difference in the regs (or interpretation thereof) in Norn Iron and the other devolved parts of the UK?

[The Old Bloke Next Door]

Mine could carry 1.7 ton, fully loaded with a trailer attached the combined extra weight of trailer and its load was 1.5 ton.    With the truck unloaded it would pull a trailer and load upto 3.2 ton, assuming I've done the maths correctly.

There was only one time I thought I might get a pull, in the slow lane on the M6 from Stafford heading towards Walsall, with a series 3 109 Station Wagon on the back. A jam sandwich passed slowly and plod in the passenger seat gave me and the truck an eye-balling then sped off.

[warninglight]

I remembered having a similar chat a few years ago, linked above.

I managed to find this snippet on gov.uk, I'm sure it'll be searchable! 

[Talbot]

4 hours ago, Faker said:

You are flogging a dead horse Talbot… it really isn’t that difficult to subtract one number from another chief

I know it's easy to subtract one number from another, but it's also easy for a VIN to explicitly show a Gross Vehicle Weight and a Gross Trailer Weight, but it doesn't.  You've not shown anywhere that legislation requires you to subtract one figure from the other, and that you would in fact be breaking the law by towing an "overweight" trailer, despite being within both the Gross Vehicle and Gross Train weights.

This is entirely my point.  If I have a trailer of 2200kg attached to my car weighing 2000kg I am within all 4 of the stated weights on the rating plate of my car.  Absolutely nowhere (both in the handbook and anywhere in legislation) does it state that I have to do any calculations or stay within any other weights.

I'm not flogging a dead horse... I'm working to the letter of the law, and I believe your interpretation is not correct.  Much like many other websites and towing associations.  Yes, it's very easy to do that subtraction, and many people do so to get a trailer weight, but that doesn't make it right.

[Talbot]

https://www.thettcgroup.com/news/guidance-towing-trailer-car-van-basics/

https://www.barlowtrailers.co.uk/the-basics-of-towing-a-trailer-or-van

https://fbhvc.co.uk/news/article/dft-guidance-towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van

https://tfmtrailer.com/onewebmedia/Towing.pdf

All of the above sites quote the DfT guidance, stating the same claue 7.3 about Gross Combination Weight above.

[Faker]

5 hours ago, chaseracer said:

Just a thought...

...any difference in the regs (or interpretation thereof) in Norn Iron and the other devolved parts of the UK?

British legislation in NI

[Faker]

8 hours ago, The Old Bloke Next Door said:

Mine could carry 1.7 ton, fully loaded with a trailer attached the combined extra weight of trailer and its load was 1.5 ton.    With the truck unloaded it would pull a trailer and load upto 3.2 ton, assuming I've done the maths correctly.

There was only one time I thought I might get a pull, in the slow lane on the M6 from Stafford heading towards Walsall, with a series 3 109 Station Wagon on the back. A jam sandwich passed slowly and plod in the passenger seat gave me and the truck an eye-balling then sped off.

You can’t tow 3.2t when the truck bed is empty! 

[Faker]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/pdfs/uksi_19861078_en.pdf

[Barry Cade]

5 hours ago, Faker said:

You can’t tow 3.2t when the truck bed is empty! 

I see that every day!

[The Old Bloke Next Door]

6 hours ago, Faker said:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/pdfs/uksi_19861078_en.pdf

Had a quick scroll through that, can't  see any reference to what  the maximum weight of an  attached trailer and load  is legal when the the towing vehicle is unloaded. Although the amount of content will probably take me all day to read it, typical government rules and regulations.

The only visible differences between mine and a standard 3.5 ton was an extra leaf or two on the rear road springs, safety guards under the load bed to I assume prevent pedestrians from falling under the truck, a custom made dashboard that incorporated a tacho, under the bonnet it had twin batteries, either side of the engine bay and a battery cut off switch in the cab.

[Talbot]

I suspect very much that the reason most motoring organisations promote the "GTW-GVW" to get a trailer maximum weight is that they can never be wrong and are in fact erring on the side of caution, with a simple calculation for the general motoring public.  Promoting the (more complex) letter of the law, which allows towing a heavier trailer if the vehicle is not at GVW, is promoting something that is less safe and less stable.   It's blatantly obvious that (using W210 weights, as I am familiar with them) a car at 2300kg towing a 2100kg trailer is more stable than a car at 2000kg towing a 2400kg trailer.  Taking that to the extreme, I could be a car at 1800kg towing a trailer of 2600kg.

No motoring organisation is going to suggest that's a good idea, they are always going to say that you shouldn't exceed the (GTW-GVW) figure (2100kg in this instance) to avoid people removing weight from a towcar to tow a heavier trailer, despite legislation allowing it.

This has apparently also been taken up by the DfT guidance, as the wording above (clause 7.3) is no longer on the DfT website, they've changed it for the less clear statement that has been banded around here of "the GTW is the combination of fully loaded car and fully loaded trailer" which, whilst correct, doesn't accurately represent the actual law.

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, The Old Bloke Next Door said:

10 hours ago, Faker said:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/pdfs/uksi_19861078_en.pdf

Had a quick scroll through that, can't  see any reference to what  the maximum weight of an  attached trailer and load  is legal when the the towing vehicle is unloaded. Although the amount of content will probably take me all day to read it, typical government rules and regulations.

here it is in a somewhat more digestible form

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/contents

 

also here is directly from the Department of Transport the clause @Talbot is quoting via the websites he linked to above

sadly that whole section of the Gov.uk website has been enshittified, so I have to fetch it from the Web archive, but @Faker it *is* something the Department of Transport very much said in a publication which you can read for yourself in the link below

https://web.archive.org/web/20210917050529/https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van/towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van-the-basics

 

 

[Barry Cade]

On 14/03/2025 at 19:56, sheffcortinacentre said:

 

How is the towing limit of a vehicle arrived at? 

I presume there must be a formula/regs etc that manufacturers have to follow?

I found this for the American market , not sure how we do it..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J2807

[IronStar]

[sdkrc]

That Daewoo is fucking amazing. 

[Stuew]