Why don't I listen to myself?

[Barry Cade]

Valid points, and I also believe emissions targets are bullshit, and the way they are being met is stupid.. and 99% of the reason cars are so unreliable nowadays..  I mentioned earlier how much more fuel our trucks are using with the latest emissions gear.. suppose it was the same with the muscle cars in the early 70s.. once catalysts and smog pumps were fitted the power fell through the floor, but the mpg went down sometimes too so they were burning more fuel for a given distance,  whatever the figures said. The old lean burn Toyota  engines showed us a different way, but were a dead end.  DPF's  just save up the soot to fart it out later,  on a motorway away from kids.. I'd love to do an emissions test on a car whilst its doing a regeneration...

[sofarsogood]

19 hours ago, Barry Cade said:

Lots of interesting replies here, and less VAG love than I expected.. BUT, no real thoughts on why they are still so successful and growing all the time. They sold a car designed by Hitler to the peace loving hippies, sold an air cooled rear engined car long after it's sell by date, built a van with the engine in the back..?? ,  very publically admitted to being underhanded with regards to emissions regulations, built the TT which had a fatal handling flaw then decided to sell the ID3 to customers whilst admitting the software isn't finished. Why are they still so sought after?

Lancia had world beating engineering, rally pedigree to shade Audi, and stunning designs, and bad steel killed them dead in a few years. 

Some people just love the brand/image. I can't figure it out either see Apple, Land Rover etc for further details.

I drive a company mandated Octavia, had 5 of them all TD, 1.9PD to 1.6CR. Its used quite heavily with a decent weight in the boot. Admittedly I only keep them for 3 years. Had a headlight bulb and the most recent fault a year in on my last one was the battery. All of my colleagues drive them. The only major incident I know of was gearbox failure at 8 miles (no oil).

My favourite was the P.D.  1.9 drove from the Midlands to Amsterdam only stopped on the chunnel no refuel completed the job for work and was in the casino for 18:00. Not a bad thing to drive a long distance.

I don't think I would want a used one with all the none DIY able stuff on them though...

[ThisWayUp]

I bought a brand new Golf Mk6 in 2010. A 140 Tdi in GT trim. It was a nice car, the mpg improved nicely with the miles, but at 29k and a year out of warranty the diaphragm spring on the clutch fractured and poked out. This conveniently machined it’s way through the bell housing allowing the gearbox to lose its oil. 
after an initial estimate of £2008 I got that down to £225 with goodwill.

At 60k the EGR valve failed - that wasn’t too cheap. This was a cheating diesel but I avoided the remap as I’d heard bad things. Ironically if it had been remapped it would have been warranted against this. 

in fairness the EGR was possibly a symptom of insufficient miles. 

The headlamps were boggo halogen,  and the bulb holders melted which made them work intermittently. 
Despite regular brake fluid changes the callipers tended to have sticky pistons. I think I replaced 3 callipers by the end. 
I also thought it was quite crap to work on. Nothing was accessible or designed to be serviceable. For example - To remove the oil filter required a pipe to be unbolted and move. No biggy, but that seemed to be the general format. 
I was also running a 2007 Saab 9-3 Aero 2.0T and it was by comparison much nicer to wave spanner’s as. Granted it was more a GM product, but it was better. 
 

Overall, a nice car but let down by poor components and a lack of design. 

[garbaldy]

Vag group are no worse than any other brand, pretty much all cars have faults of some sort,   the two vehicles I've owned with the highest miles where a 91 passat 1.6tdi that had over 600k on it and a peugeot xud with 860k  .  Most of the other vags I've owned had 200k plus on them,  I've also had a toyota petrol that was fucked with only 60k on it.   Its not always the cars fault but sometimes due to poor maintenance.

This guy was thankfully he bought a vag as he walked away.

[Barry Cade]

I'm not allowed to put pictures up, but I've seen horrific crashes of all makes and models. Crash safety is one thing that has got better and better over the years and the " If I was driving anything else I'd be dead" is crap. Every accident is different and no one can say that with any certainty. All modern cars amaze me with how well they survive in accidents, and I'm surrounded by them every day.  That's one thing that goes against " All modern cars are crap".  Some days I'm standing chatting with the driver in front of a mangled lump of metal, a few days after its happened and cannot believe they even got out alive, never mind unscathed. 

 

[SiC]

5 hours ago, 1duck said:

I also don't think cheating emissions is that big of a deal, it's not like cheating crash safety tests or something like that.

No, it's worse than cheating crash safety. Far more people are dying from the effects of harmful emissions than those die on the roads every year. 

[garbaldy]

I dropped a modern 4 foot of the forklift and it caved in that thing hurled it's self over a bridge which will be 40 odd feet and the door still opened, pretty impressive and if he'd been in the vehicle I dropped he would be dead that I  am sure.

Said vehicle bellow, yes it's cheep car but I was shocked at how easily it caved in. It was also fucked engine at 70k.

 

[FakeConcern]

6 minutes ago, SiC said:

No, it's worse than cheating crash safety. Far more people are dying from the effects of harmful emissions than those die on the roads every year. 

Because of this I don't understand why VW were expected tp pay compensation to the owners, it should be to society surely?

[SiC]

Just now, FakeConcern said:

Because of this I don't understand why VW were expected tp pay compensation to the owners, it should be to society surely?

US authorities got $25bn off VAG fines, penalties and restitution. Small beans for a company the size of VAG. They got fined even less in Europe.

[garbaldy]

Yes the owners benefited from years of cheep or free tax so let's sue and claim them more money.

I'm sick of hearing the advert for rounding up more owners to claim against mercedes deiselgate too.

[Barry Cade]

7 minutes ago, garbaldy said:

I dropped a modern 4 foot of the forklift and it caved in that thing hurled it's self over a bridge which will be 40 odd feet and the door still opened, pretty impressive and if he'd been in the vehicle I dropped he would be dead that I  am sure.

Said vehicle bellow, yes it's cheep car but I was shocked at how easily it caved in. It was also fucked engine at 70k.

 

Different impact. If there had have been a small wall or log where the VW fell it may have been a different story. You also have to take into consideration the age of the design, not just the year of the car. Crash safety is designed into the structure,  so with every new model crash safety improves by a huge margin. That sportage will be a 12-15 year old design?

[garbaldy]

True but the sportage didnt fall on a log or wall either,  that shape of golf is fair old age design just with a good few facelifts but pretty similar to the old mk5/6 or whatever mk they where.

 

So are you gonna take the toledo back and find him another or just keep fixing it ?

[Barry Cade]

Its fixed, for now, and probably where it should be to have sold him it with a clear conscience. Anything else now will be out of warranty 😄. He's sold his Mazda 2 which theToledo was the replacement for which was totally trouble free, as was the Suzuki he had before it. And the Honda Civic before that. He did buy a Lupo ( nothing to do with me) before the Mazda which lasted 3 days... 1.4 16v which sounded like a toolbox falling down the stairs.. Long story.. 

 

I'm really not sure about these huge glass roofs either.. my nephew was killed (ironically in a mk 3 golf gti) where a fence post came in through the sunroof when it rolled.  Would a non sunroof car been any different? Who knows, but its stuck in my mind. Accidents are pure  chance..

[Barry Cade]

28 minutes ago, SiC said:

US authorities got $25bn off VAG fines, penalties and restitution. Small beans for a company the size of VAG. They got fined even less in Europe.

I think it still hurt.. talk of selling off lambo and Ducati. And the downturn of Diesel after that must have cost them millions too. And the recall cost and buying back cars. Then 2020.. 

[garbaldy]

Yes I'm not a fan of these panoramic roofs as that's a hell of a lot of glass above your head where I prefer tin.

That reminds me of coming across an astra that had slid of the road and a fence rail was sticking out the tailgate glass having travelled straight threw the cabin where his head should have been,  you sure do not forget those image's.

 

 

Was the diesel cheat just the bonnet open switch not allowing the car full fuel or throttle ?

[bigfella2]

I have found one design feature about Mk5 golfs, Passats MK3 caddy's etc that I like. 

That you can replace the front wheel bearing yourself just by unbolting them from the hub, just using four bolts, no need for a press or anything like that. Great for the DIY mechanic. 

[1duck]

35 minutes ago, SiC said:

No, it's worse than cheating crash safety. Far more people are dying from the effects of harmful emissions than those die on the roads every year. 

And far more people exist on earth due to modern transport and the advantages it brings than ever at any point in history, especially road haulage in the form of the modern diesel engine which provides access to cheap food/medicine/science etc etc.  Which is why we're all living far longer than our previous generations. 

Really shy of a few very high concentration spots, the air has never been cleaner, we're hardly living in smog filled 1900s coal burning London. Just now we've reached a point where we bother recording deaths from those emissions. 

Also your statement is just a real celebration of how far crash safety has come, we should all be writing cheques to VW and co. as a society. Thanking them for their hard work, rather than hitting them with retrospective punitive fines.  Their modern crash avoidance laser stuff is frankly amazing. 

Anyway it'll make sod all difference in the long run when we all wind up with lithium powered electric cars, where all the carbon footprint will be in the massive mining operations dragging the lithium out the ground. Probably by huge diesel diggers running no cats/dpfs etc.  It's okay though because it'll be in Chile/Australia so fuck it. 

 

[garbaldy]

3 minutes ago, bigfella2 said:

I have found one design feature about Mk5 golfs, Passats MK3 caddy's etc. 

That you can replace the front wheel bearing yourself just by unbolting them from the hub, just using four bolts, no need for a press or anything like that. Great for the DIY mechanic. 

Binis are the same as are navaras and I bet a fair few others too.

[Barry Cade]

4 minutes ago, garbaldy said:

Yes I'm not a fan of these panoramic roofs as that's a hell of a lot of glass above your head where I prefer tin.

That reminds me of coming across an astra that had slid of the road and a fence rail was sticking out the tailgate glass having travelled straight threw the cabin where his head should have been,  you sure do not forget those image's.

 

 

Was the diesel cheat just the bonnet open switch not allowing the car full fuel or throttle ?

The software seemed to know when the car was in a workshop environment,  revving whilst not moving etc, and used a different map. All hidden in code.

 

This kinda opens your eyes to what goes on.. from the New York Times..

New high-end cars are among the most sophisticated machines on the planet, containing 100 million or more lines of code. Compare that with about 60 million lines of code in all of Facebook or 50 million in the Large Hadron Collider

[Split_Pin]

Good because I've been ignoring the NSF bearing on our Bini on sweeping right handers for a while now! It's on my shelf, no excuse now.

[Barry Cade]

12 minutes ago, garbaldy said:

Bin is are the same as are navaras and I bet a fair few others too.

Pretty much all cars have bolt in hubs now, even my old Saab 9-5. 

 

Speaking of Saabs #1duck I remember the ad for the saab 9000 in the late 80s. They drove it through the centre of London, and the air coming out the tailpipe was cleaner than the air going in the air filter. Cars were improving the environment.. and that was 30 years ago.

[vaughant]

Almost ALL manufacturers cheat emissions, hence why after the vw scandal there were so many recalls. 

They only hit vw as 80% of Derv cars sold over there were vw and it was killing their 25mpg 100bhp shit they were selling. 

They got caught, that's all, unlucky really, pull any derv car of that era in and it will fail too. 

[bunglebus]

46 minutes ago, garbaldy said:

Was the diesel cheat just the bonnet open switch not allowing the car full fuel or throttle ?

I believe it was when the car was "driving" but not detecting any movement from the steering angle sensor.

We used to get customers complain of mystery lack of power faults when driving on the motorway, never any stored codes - I think they were inadvertently triggering the cheat mode

[bigfella2]

55 minutes ago, Barry Cade said:

Pretty much all cars have bolt in hubs now, even my old Saab 9-5. 

I've never seen it before, I feel quite daft now. 🤔

[1duck]

1 hour ago, Barry Cade said:

Speaking of Saabs #1duck I remember the ad for the saab 9000 in the late 80s. They drove it through the centre of London, and the air coming out the tailpipe was cleaner than the air going in the air filter. Cars were improving the environment.. and that was 30 years ago.

Im sure there was an ad for a Kia or maybe a Hyundai where the guy tried to gas himself in his garage and failed as the emissions were too clean. Think it got banned pretty quickly, which is the only reason I even remember it. Pretty dark, but all publicity is good publicity?

[Rod/b]

4 hours ago, Barry Cade said:

Different impact. If there had have been a small wall or log where the VW fell it may have been a different story. You also have to take into consideration the age of the design, not just the year of the car. Crash safety is designed into the structure,  so with every new model crash safety improves by a huge margin. That sportage will be a 12-15 year old design?

Older than it - was out in 2004 so at least 16 years old, plus development time. 

[Burnside]

I've mixed feeling when it comes to VAG products. Although despite never owning one, I've driven a various Golf/ Passat's over the years and more recently Transporters and Caddy Vans. 

I remember back in 2001 two of my friends brought MK2 Golf's. One was a 1.3 and the other a 1.6. 

There were certainly better finished / screwed together than the MK4 Escort I owned though years later.

One of them went on to get a rather nice 1 owner 1.8 GTI 8V too, which was great car.

My Mum's current car is also a late 06 MK4 Golf 1.9 Derv Estate which her partner brought new. It's currently on 201,000 miles and hasn't [touch wood] had to have any major work apart from a new dmf clutch this year at a 198,000. It's picked up a few battle scars etc, but it's still has plenty of get up and go. Hopefully it still has a few more years to give too. I've driven it a fair few times over the years and also other MK4's and found them all to be decent cars.

An the same with my Grandad S reg Passat 1.9 Derv Estate which currently resides with @cort1977 which was again, a trouble free car and which I enjoyed driving on the rare occasions.

But would I buy one? No.

Although despite liking the MK2's my friends had styling wise. I personally found them to be rather dull and heavy to drive.

An neither Golf was that reliable either, they were always both needing something repairing. The heater matrix exploding one night while one of them was trying to pull some ladies was a particular amusing highlight.

In comparison though my first car was a older £130 1986 Talbot Samba Style with various dents and rust patches. Which despite the ribbing for having a crappy looking old French car. Had 0 breakdown's or major fails in 5 years. Even despite my enthusiastic driving and only basic servicing.

I know of someone who had a 2012 Passat when barely 2 years old and it was just problems all the time, including rust which took ages for VW to agree to put right. Yet he still went back and brought another Passat a few years later from the same VW dealer! 

Then it a similar story with my Uncle, who has two T5 Transporters. There always giving him trouble yet he won't have a bad word said about them.

Unfortunately I don't find any of the modern equivalents from Vauxhall or Ford etc particular appealing either. There all over complicated with tech and cheaply built with crappy eco engines. I doubt many will last the course either like the previous generations of Cavaliers or Mondeo's.

But then it's way past my bedtime and I could be talking utter tosh. 

 

[davehedgehog31]

Volkswagen have continued to trade off the public's misconception that build quality is directly proportional to the quantities of squishy plastics in an interior. 

Their reputation for quality was certainly well earned, but years of producing substandard, turgid shite seems to have done little to diminish it. 

I don't think their cars are entirely without merit to us on here, they can still make acceptable transport. It's the public's perception that they're somehow intrinsically and massively better than other mass market European manufacturers and worth a "premium" that confuses me.

[Cavcraft]

How can you tell someone is vegetarian owns an old Poxwagen? They'll tell you.

[leanycan]

12 hours ago, 1duck said:

I didn't realise the TT issue was that widespread, but they did remedy it.

cheating is cheating, but when nearly all the manufacturers are at it you have to ask yourself...are they at fault or is the test? The whole emissions thing was pretty bullshit anyway, when you consider the energy put into building a car, then a car that can do 200k miles before being scrapped in my mind is better than a more efficient car that can only do half that mileage before it's uneconomical to repair. The whole diesel-gate thing was in my mind backed by america who were watching VW grow at a rate of knots and shitting themselves over the future of their own car manufacturers. They decided they had to hobble the competition, if ford had been playing the same game, would they have got the same punishment? i very much doubt it.

It is a bit like when BP had the deepwater horizon oil spill off the coast of florida, which was caused largely by their use of american contracting firms if that had been exxon mobil i don't think they'd have got buggered as badly as they were....but because it was a foreign company they were more willing to play hard ball and make an example.

I firmly believe the VW diesel scandal is what sounded the death knell for diesel cars and has brought on the current wave of lets buy electric cars pish. Yes, saving the planet and all that is a must and clean renewable energy has to be better than diesel for sure but look at what company has benefitted from that massively, Tesla... an American corporation. Does make you wonder. 

Anyway as a side note... anyone else think the govt will have to backtrack on the banning sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2030...