Project BX17RD - the further adventures of PBO

[vulgalour]

I'll do a full report at some point but, in short, travel on Friday was appalling (almost five hours to do almost 150 miles was insane), the new head unit is great, car performed flawlessly.  I'm utterly knackered now.

[stuboy]

On 10/25/2019 at 2:43 PM, mat_the_cat said:

Not while they're in your hand, they get warm surprisingly quickly :-o

i assumed vulgs would hold the insulated part of the jump lead

[vulgalour]

I'm not as green as I am cabbage looking, it's true.

---

This weekend just gone was a trip to Lincolnshire to sort out the Princess head and visit an old friend.  The journey is only 140ish miles from here and mostly A1(M) so it's usually a fairly straightforward run.  I'm a bit of a plodder so it usually takes me about 3 hours, 55-60mph is where the car and I are happiest and while I can drive faster and sometimes do, I prefer not to.  Heading out on Friday the weather was pretty poor, and it didn't improve.  For some reason, the A1(M) was sluggish, there had been a couple of accidents and busy exits, and the rain kept everyone's speed down but I can't have averaged more than 40mph on the entire run.  It took nearly 5 hours.  I was grateful of the very comfortable seats in the BX and the very good heater, and very happy I'd fitted the head unit that I could actually use so for the first time in ages I could listen to tape and radio while I was sat in traffic waiting for things to move.

Once we got onto the last 30 miles or so of the drive, the satnav kicked me off onto a road I didn't know.  When I'm driving in Lincolnshire I go by what little landmarks there are, usually, but in the dark I always end up lost very quickly as a result, so the satnav is a bit of a godsend for me.  I have no idea what road it chucked me onto but it was unlit, narrow, and in places flooded.  This is also when I found out for definite that one of my headlights was badly out of adjustment so it was like driving on a single headlight, and main beam was no great improvement.  I can confirm that BXs plow through flooded roads you don't see quite well!  Two pheasants attempted suicide a little further on and I was grateful for the BX brakes since I didn't fancy trying to remove pheasant from inevitably shattered plastic should we have collided.

Then I was kicked back out onto a more main road, again with no lighting, that again I didn't know, and daren't go more than 45mph because my headlight aim had got worse and I could barely see where I was going.  I kept as left as I could and while the traffic behind me had plenty of opportunity to overtake me, they decided to do so just before a very well lit roundabout and didn't go any faster than 45mph once they'd got past me so I did wonder what the point was.  Never mind.  Got to my destination tired and a little frayed, but none the worse for it.  BX seemed to respond favourably to the run, as diesels tend to and it settled down for the night while my friend and I got pizza and caught up on plenty of stuff and things.

Saturday, we sorted the Princess engine out, and did some errands including going to visit a friend of my friend who had a rather lovely bare-metal Riley special to admire (no pictures, though I believe it was going to the NEC in the near future) and come Sunday it was time to head home.  The drive home was much better, the weather was beautiful and while it was a little windy to begin with it soon cleared up and it took me nearer 2.5 hours to get home.  We did some overtaking and some chugging along with trucks, but I was too tired and suffering from some sort of virus I'd picked up over the weekend (still am, not much voice to use), so I couldn't really bomb along that much.  There was a good amount of traffic, but it was smooth moving, so it wasn't a particularly stressful drive home.  Happily, my friend had fixed the adjuster that had stripped the threads on the plastic portion and corrected my headlight aim so when the sun did go down as I approached home and unlit country roads, I actually had some lights to see by.

Today, I'm still feeling a bit grotty so I shan't be doing any outdoor jobs like head swaps or car washing, but I gave the car a check over anyway.  I tried out the new Turtle Wax paste polish a little while ago and I have to say I'm impressed at how much dirt it's kept off the car.  The roads I was going along were pretty disgusting in places with plenty of mud and debris and I followed a lot of trucks but, apart from the wheels looking a little dull, the car really doesn't look that bad and the water still beads nicely.

There was a little bit of bug-maggedon happening, which was surprising for how late in the year it is, and you can see the dirt streaks here.

I did have a couple of minor issues with the car on the trek.  At precisely 62mph something on the driver's corner of the dashboard and/or the driver's doorcard where the electric window switches are, rattles.  My solution was not to drive at precisely 62mph, since I couldn't find where it was.  The exhaust drones above 65mph in a way that's not pleasant, it's one of those drones that you sort of feel in your teeth and cancels out anyone speaking, a strange sort of white noise effect.  I suspect the exhaust is just resonating on something since I know it still needs the alignment looking at, I just haven't found the time to get it done, my suspicion is another worn out rubber hanger.  The most annoying issue though has to be the water in the car.  On the drive it got drier, even going through the rain for several hours, so I'm moderately confident no more water is getting in.  The problem is the last of the water is struggling to get out, so while I have been driving with heaters on and windows cracked open as much as possible, I'm going to have to put some dehumidifier pellets or something in the car to get this last bit out.

All in all, a thoroughly comfortable 300ish miles over this weekend, and an utterly reliable car to do it in.  The new glowplugs have made a huge difference to first start ups and the long run down the A1(M) certainly seems to have done the car some favours.  It did draw a bit of attention to itself mixing with the moderns and going by some of the points from passengers in vehicles overtaking me, some confusion and surprise.  It has one huge advantage over the Rover it replaces in that the rear window is shaped such that even the wankeriest of headlights behind me are somehow mitigated, so night driving is hugely more tolerable.

[vulgalour]

Right then, a minor update.  For the most part, there's nothing of note to report, the BX continues to be excellent at being A Car while also not boring me, which is quite impressive.  I have almost no complaints.  Most of the interior is staying perfectly dry, even with all the rain we've had, but I still have water getting into the driver's front footwell somewhere and it's getting in through the driver's side of the boot somewhere, neither of which I have been able to successfully locate.  It's not an alarming quantity of water, it's now a persistent and irritating leak somewhere that's proving elusive and the constant wet weather lately is certainly not helping.  I need to get the car dried out fully so I can let the water leak appear more slowly and help me locate it.  My suspicion at the front is the inner arch seam because the moisture is along the inner sill and no higher than I'd previously sealed, so I must have missed a tiny little hole somewhere.  At the rear it's more difficult, I've had the carpet out and there's no ingress between floor and inner wing but the carpet in the storage cubby in the boot gets damp when you've been driving a long time in the rain, so I'm guessing there's another tiny little hole in an arch seam where two or more panels meet.  I can resolve these with time, for now I just have to put up with a bit of fogging up while I try and dry the car out, and I've been keeping dehumidifier granules in the car to get as much moisture out as I can that's already trapped inside, which is helping slowly.

The other issue is a mechanical one and it's an intermittent one.  I'm yet to find what the common cause is beyond it only happening on the first start of the day. Sometimes, you go to start the car in the usual fashion and it idles incredibly lumpily and, eventually, dies.  Sometimes you go to start the car in the usual fashion again and it's fine.  Other times, you go to start in the usual fashion and it can take three of four attempts before it stops being lumpy.  Once you've got it started, usually with a big cloud of grey smoke, it's fine for the rest of the day, sometimes for several days.  Today it was slightly different in that on the second start it required a good amount of throttle to un-lumpify, coughed out a big cloud and left a black mark on the floor from the tailpipe, and has been perfectly well behaved ever since.  My suspicion is clogged fuel filter and/or a priming issue.  I haven't yet replaced the fuel filter/s and don't know when they were last done.  Fuel consumption isn't higher or lower than I'd expect, there's no leaks around the injectors, and the glowplugs are brand new and since the car behaves itself after it has one of these grumpy first starts, my gut feeling is that it can't be something more serious since it's not a regular issue and not one I can get it to repeat.

I'm not that far off a year of ownership with this one now and, since acquiring it, I've not been tempted by anything else.  It does exactly what I want a car to do, when I want it to do it.

[dean36014]

I did the fuel filters on it so they shouldn't be that old. Sounds more like an air leak. I can't remember but think it has the fuel filter housing with the primer button on the top. These are notorious for leaking. Try priming the filter before you start it and see if it starts better.  Check the injector leak off pipes too for cracks.

[Jimbob McGregor]

Have you checked the valve clearances recently? I seem to remember a cold starting issue with the XUD where one or more valves closes up a bit, causing some lumpiness/unburnt fuel on a cold start. 
Once there is some warmth in the engine things resolve themselves.

[vulgalour]

Had a look at this today and tried priming before starting.  The only thing this did was create an awful lot more smoke.  I had another look over the various fuel pipe I could see and noticed something I hadn't before which was some splits around the clamp on the hose that goes to the fuel pump.

I bought some new hose, which turned out to be too small, so resorted to chopping off the split bit of hose and reconnecting everything since there was just enough length to do that.  It wasn't until I removed the hose that I found a stamp of 7.6mm, and that's a size I've not yet been able to find, I'm not even sure what the imperial equivalent is other than that I know it's ever so slightly larger than the 1/4" hose I bought that looked the same size until I tried to fit it.  Ah well, hose spares for the spares pile with that one.  As soon as I can find some suitable diameter hose, I'll order some and replace this whole length, for now there's no other signs of cracks or damage so I'm hoping the end trim will be adequate.

The car behaved the same way it does all day, both before and after this intermittent starting problem began, so I have no idea if this has helped or not yet.  I did give the leak off pipes another inspection and I cannot see anything amiss, in part because they're covered in braiding.  Everything around there is dry and moving the hoses around while the car is running and idle doesn't make any changes or cause any diesel to leak out so I assume these are still good.

I'll see what happens when I go to start the car tomorrow and this time I shan't prime it.  Maybe it's fixed?  Maybe it's not.

[Lacquer Peel]

8mm bore hose should do the job.
I wouldn't be surprised if the primer itself is the problem.

[vulgalour]

If it is, do you know how easy that is to replace/repair?

[dean36014]

Looking at the picture of the leak off pipes reminded me that I changed those so I doubt they are the issue. I'm also pretty sure I replaced that splitting fuel pipe with a new piece, shows you how crap modern rubber pipes are.

[vulgalour]

The pipe I trimmed has 2017 stamped on it, presumably date of manufacture.  You'd expect to get a bit more than 2 years out of fuel hose, but such is the world we live in that you often don't.

[vulgalour]

I tried something new on the first start today after doing some reading last night and a little more today about the sort of starting problems I've been experiencing.  Generally it seems to be a blocked fuel filter, split fuel hoses, split leak-off hoses, worn fuel pumps, air getting in, and dodgy fuel pre-heat blocks.  Now, I know when I sit waiting for the glowplug light to go out that if I wait a bit longer, there's a click of some sort of relay that isn't the glowplug relay which, I assume, is the fuel pre-heat relay.  Today, I turned on the ignition, waited for the glowplug light to go out and the presumed preheat relay to click, then turned the ignition off and repeated the process.  The second time the relay click happened I turned the key and the car started up with no smoke, no stumbling, no bother at all.

I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from this other than that for today at least, I've found a way to start the car that works and that it's probably not an air leak issue after all.  However, it could be that me trimming that fuel hose yesterday actually cured an air leak.  Or it could be that tomorrow when I start the car from cold this new technique doesn't work.

I'll keep you posted.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

20 hours ago, vulgalour said:

..... it could be that tomorrow when I start the car from cold this new technique doesn't work.

I'll keep you posted.

Never a dull moment with a Citroen.

[vulgalour]

Another suggestion for the issue was valve clearances (by @Jimbob McGregor here and other folks elsewhere).  In my head, I'd remembered it was old fashioned pushrod type set up, I have no idea why, so I was somewhat dismayed to read my pre-work tinkering was not to be.  BX uses the same shims-under-buckets system as the Princess so if the clearances do need to be sorted I've got to get some replacement shims, and to get to the shims I've got to remove the camshaft and... no.  The car works just fine, I'll tackle this job another day when I have all the relevant gubbins since it's a bit more involved than feeler guages and a couple of spanners.

[stuboy]

22 hours ago, vulgalour said:

waiting for the glowplug light to go out that if I wait a bit longer, there's a click of some sort of relay that isn't the glowplug relay

my old diesel for onion the glow plug light would go out too early, so would wait for the big click from the engine bay then start it ok, to cure was a ford only £55 plus vat relay, never replaced it

[MrParody]

It never does any harm to preheat twice.

[mat_the_cat]

...but if you need to, it's indicative of an underlying fault. OK, it may or may not be cost effective to get everything back to A1 condition, but if you *have* to preheat twice you're masking the real problem.

In my experience (when I messed up setting the valve clearances ) it will start but run roughly with plenty of smoke. That's with one valve never closing, and I think you'd have to suffer pretty catastrophic valve seat recession to close up the clearances enough so a valve never actually closes.

[vulgalour]

On the occasions it smokes it's only once the car has started.  The smoke clears as soon as the car is running properly and doesn't come back, even on subsequent start ups.  I agree, something is amiss, it's just a case of finding out what.  I'm loathe to pull it apart too much until both the Princess is back together (this weekend's job), and the house move is complete (potentially within the next few weeks).  Since it's an occasional issue on starting, I'm working around it for now, then when I've got a bit more stable with back up vehicle, I can dig in a bit more thoroughly

[vulgalour]

BX starting issue persists, though differently today in that it didn't produce smoke.  Instead, it was reluctant to 'catch' and when it did on the second attempt it was reluctant to stay running and just sort of died.  Third attempt it fired up but didn't like any revs being applied initially, then just cleared up and was fine.  Subsequent start ups while on my errands were also annoying in that it would start and immediately die on the first attempt, then start normally with no drama or smoke on the second attempt.  Glowplug cycling hasn't made any noticeable difference, nor has waiting so I wonder if what I'm actually experiencing here is Chinese quality control and the glowplugs I bought are already fubarred.  Which would be pretty annoying.  Not sure how I'd go about proving that or taking them back so I'm thinking it might be a good idea to get some really good glowplugs that other old diesel pilots trust and see what happens.

The reason for installing these glowplugs was that I was having issues with smokey start ups and occasional reluctance to start, and while the current symptoms aren't exactly the same as what I was having before glowplug change, they are similar.  Ideally I need to find a camera that will actually do video reliably so I can show you what it does, that might make diagnosis a little easier.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

Just now, vulgalour said:

.... Chinese quality control ...

A contradiction in terms.

[vulgalour]

As pointed out on the other threads I keep on this one, it could also be that the battery isn't in the best of health and the cold weather is slowly killing it, like it slowly kills us all in the end.

[barrett]

In my experience, cheap Chinese glow plugs are significantly worse than totally knackered gummed-up old plugs that barely work. Close your eyes, open your wallet and splash out on a set of Bosch or whatever and see if it makes a difference. 

[Fabergé Greggs]

Similar symptoms to mine.. mine will catch straight away, but now it’s getting colder it often grumbles after a couple of seconds and sometimes stalls, then is usually fine on the next go. I’ve got what looks like a leaky injector but I’m going to start with a set of plugs.. using the never ending euro car parts discounts a set of Bosch ones is £40 or so. 

[Jimbob McGregor]

You mentioned my suggestion of valve clearances. Quite right, doesn’t mean you actually have to do anything about it if it’s not terrible. 
Also, BERU were often regarded as the go-to best glow plugs for the XUD.

Operating the glow plugs twice before starting and waiting for the ‘clunk’ from the relay before cranking can never harm.

[vulgalour]

This'll teach me for going for the convenient on-the-shelf-in-a-shop route, rather than taking my chances with the internet purchase wheel of fortune.

[vulgalour]

Since we hadn't sorted a battery for the multimeter and I don't actually have one of my own, we went and got one today.  BX was reluctant to start, but not smokey, and was also slightly lumpy on idle.  By the time we'd got the new multimeter to test things, the idle had even out a little but wasn't quite right, throttle response was also very poor at the start of travel.  Another once over revealed nothing obviously amiss with hoses, but did highlight one of the glowplug wire nuts was very loose.  A quick go over all the glowplug wire nuts with an 8mm spanner saw them all tightened up and, for some reason, the idle sorted itself out.

Got the multimeter on the battery and it was about 13 volts with the engine turned off and about 14 volts with the engine running.  That would suggest the battery is okay and the alternator is doing its job.  Got sidetracked by other errands and forgot to test the glowplugs, but they will be tested later.  I want to leave the car overnight and check the battery in the morning to see if it's dropped any voltage, since we tested it after driving for a bit, there's still the chance the battery isn't optimal and the alternator had topped it off.  It will also be easier to do the glowplugs then so I will.

Has it cured the starting problem?  Well... sort of.  Second-starts can still be problematic but then it is sub-zero here today so that won't be helping.  First start I won't know until tomorrow after the car has cooled down fully overnight, so we'll see.

[MrSchwifty]

Another thing to check will be the glowplug timer/relay box. They can go after a few years of use and it is what controls when and for how long the glow plugs come on for. Not too much hassle to replace or that expensive in the scheme of things - here is an example. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160424-12-VOLT-GLOW-PLUG-HEATER-TIMER-CONTROLLER-RELAY-6-TERMINAL-ROVER-FIAT/273117980218?fits=Car+Make%3APeugeot|Model%3A205&epid=21016794395&hash=item3f9719a63a:g:cugAAOSwdu9ar~0x

All the same for all the XUD engined PSA shite I believe. 

I only ever use Bosch Glow Plugs in my XUD engined cars (I've had 4 of them now), nothing else seemed to come close.  

Regards starting, it looks as though you have been pretty thorough regards checking all the fuel lines. Have you tried cracking each of the injectors in turn with the engine running AT IDLE  (on the pipe union  (pipe from injection pump at the top of the injector) just to sanity check that each is being fed fuel and there is no air trapped in this section of the hardline? Don't completely remove the union nut, just crack it open and leave it on finger tight. It's a good way to see if you''re getting the same amount of widdle (more or less) at each injector . Obviously, wear some safety spectacles while doing this....

What is starting like when hot? And how much does the temperature gauge move about? 

[vulgalour]

To address the last question first, there is no temperature guage as standard, just a light that comes on to tell you it's overheated.

The only constant I can find with the starting issue is that it's more reluctant to start the colder the outside temperature is, regardless of how warm or cold the car itself is.  It's always reluctant to start on the first start of the day now, but only sometimes reluctant to start on subsequent attempts.  Sometimes, after the first start, it starts perfectly normally.

The one thing that's changed recently is that it no longer puts out smoke when reluctant to start, or when it starts normally.  It not putting out smoke is presumably a good thing, but it's odd that it's now not doing it.

Manual fuel priming makes no difference.

If it were drawing air into the system I'd expect there to be problems while running as well, but there isn't.  Since the problem is restricted solely to starting the car that really does make me think it's glowplug related now.  Once it's running it's absolutely no bother and chugs around quite happily all day long.  I believe the glowplug timer/relay is fine too, even though I've not tested it, since the glowplug light reliably goes on and off and you can hear a relay doing its thing.  I shan't rule it out, of course, I just need to eliminate some other items as being problematic first.

I've not cracked the injectors to see what's going off there, the thought had crossed my mind, I just want to check through the other items first.

We'll just have to see how it behaves tomorrow and go from there.

[richardmorris]

Drawing air often results in the car surging. My cx did this and it was eventually traced to the fuel filter primer bulb. 

 

I cant recall. But have you tried heating the glowplugs twice before starting? If yes, and with new plugs then it’s something else.

 

could it be the battery? Or starter motor?

 

[vulgalour]

I'm not getting surging.  I've also tried heating the glowplugs twice and while that sometimes helps, it doesn't always.  As mentioned in a recent post, checked the battery and it seemed fine, at least after a run, but it'll be checked again tomorrow to see what it's like after a night sat idle.  Starter motor giving no cause for concern, cranks quite merrily with no sluggishness.