invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

30 minutes ago, doug said:

Spotted in the corner of an advert for a Bond Bug on Car and Classic. Reg ends in 8S?


Sent from my SM-A145R using Tapatalk
 

looking at the other pictures in that listing looks like WOO848S, a known car, it used to the show circuit alongside MHJ107P sometimes  (but I think MHJ107P has changed hands since then)

I wonder how inundated he is with questions about the Model 70, if you leave one in the background you usually get a torrent of questions about it LOL 

as always I appreciate the heads up  

[LightBulbFun]

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/326149640128401?rid=10219008974413579

funny how Invalid vehicles always show up like buses, its never just 1 gets listed for sale, when one does, a few others follow LOL

LKE635E does actually have its original chassis plate thankfully, so if you where to restore that back to Invacar Mk12B, (made a proper, new chassis for it according to Mk12B design etc) you should be able to get its original registration mark back

would be a fair old undertaking tho!

[egg]

19 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I would love it myself, but I dont really have anywhere to stash it sadly! hopefully it finds a good home, its a direct from the heywood stores car so it should be fundamentally sound

I believe Andrew is Jean's son, as it was an Andrew who spoke to the press at the time of the auction, but don't take that as gospel. Maybe the sale wasn't completed. I'd also like it but *insert generic reasons* here.

It might be as simple as replace brakes and fuel lines and off you go? Engine and dynastart look complete.

What's the Home Counties Invacar store at the FoD looking like @Mrs6C?!

In fact - that might be your hand hovering over it above ;-)!

[egg]

@LightBulbFun- I see the Acedes is on the DLVA - showing untaxed since 1980 (not SORN) so assume, remind me, that means it's probably on disabled tax not historic?

[LightBulbFun]

Just now, egg said:

@LightBulbFun- I see the Acedes is on the DLVA - showing untaxed since 1980 (not SORN) so assume, remind me, that means it's probably on disabled tax not historic?

Yah, most likely, but not a problem to sort out, this one was a DVLA resurrection/un-archive  job like your Mk12 was

what I really want to see is that 2005 V5 which was issued for it, which I think was to one of the Hammonds, stuart told me that a fair while back they did sort their stuff out and get logbooks for most of the vehicles

and the reason I want to see that 2005 V5, is because it will have the previous keeper details on it, and in this case that will be the person who computerised it, so either the last Ministry user of the machine, or even the DHSS themselves and in either case I wanna know what it says  

 

(and that is indeed my hand LOL )

[egg]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yah, most likely, but not a problem to sort out, this one was a DVLA resurrection/un-archive  job like your Mk12 was

Thanks. I assume, and I couldn't easily find on this thread, that these Acedes have similar performance* to the various MK12's?

[LightBulbFun]

31 minutes ago, egg said:

Thanks. I assume, and I couldn't easily find on this thread, that these Acedes have similar performance* to the various MK12's?

Yeah, same Villiers 11E engine and similar control layout, which is true for petty much every full bodied machine from 1957 onwards (however earlier machines had 9E's rather then 11E's) although LPD806D being an Acedes Mk11 means it does not have a front brake, specification wise it would be analogous to an Invacar Mk12B (your Invacar Mk12c with its front brake would be analogous to an AC Acedes Mk12)

although before the Model 70 each manufacturer did do its own thing design wise, there was still a common specification they had to adhere to, so most machines will have generally the same layout and drive train and other such specs  

[DVee8]

[egg]

OK just wondering if this £1,200 Acedes really needs to come on forum.

4 x very trusted shiters at £300 each + find storage + Ceri to move it.....?

All partners having an option to buy out others once safe....?

Or lend it for display to the CM Booth collection 10 miles from where the car is in Staplehurst?

http://www.morganmuseum.org.uk/getting-here.html

I'm probably talking rubbish, but just putting it out there...

[LightBulbFun]

10 hours ago, egg said:

OK just wondering if this £1,200 Acedes really needs to come on forum.

4 x very trusted shiters at £300 each + find storage + Ceri to move it.....?

All partners having an option to buy out others once safe....?

I would not be opposed to a group purchase, but the question is where to keep it, it is something that does need under cover storage, being a floppy top and all its not exactly very water proof!

 

I have been talking with Andrew the seller about it, he was able to locate the previous keeper details on its 2005 V5 which was awesome, and the previous keeper was indeed the last Ministry user of the machine  

I had suspected based on its DVLA record, so far from what I have seen, it seems like when a machine went into store, it was not put into the Ministry name, and was just left in the name of whoever the last user was.

And only the machines that the Ministry had been keeping in store for so long that they where on buff logbooks still, are the only ones to be registered in the Ministries name, and that was done when they where computerised them all at the end of 1983 (from what I have seen the Ministry computerised all its buff logbook vehicles in store all in one swoop and they all where all placed not taxed for on road use taxation class)

 

so thats a nice little bit of history most invalid vehicles sadly dont have (because for recent vehicle saves GDPR has ruined all the fun, and even before GDPR it seems like no one ever bothered to record/note these details and most invalid vehicles that where rescued pre GDPR have been through at least 1 or 2 keeper changes in that time in preservation that even if someone has a pre GDPR V5 for their machine, their last ministry user details are also lost, since it will just contain the last person they bought it from)

 

this is why I always implore that people get the logbook for their machine ASAP, because ya never know when the rules will change and make things more difficult etc 

[egg]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

I had suspected based on its DVLA record, so far from what I have seen, it seems like when a machine went into store, it was not put into the Ministry name, and was just left in the name of whoever the last user was.

Kind of interesting, in that in some official way the user was still 'responsible' for the vehicle even though it was no longer in their possession. 

[LightBulbFun]

38 minutes ago, egg said:

Kind of interesting, in that in some official way the user was still 'responsible' for the vehicle even though it was no longer in their possession. 

it is worth noting, that I dont know if the Ministry put it in trade so to speak, or had some other means of notifying the DVLA that the last recorded keeper was no longer responsible for the vehicle 

I know these days a vehicle can go into trade (with the tax cancelled and refunded) and it does not count as a keeper change, but I seem to recall there is a time limit to that after which point the dealer/trade must register it to their name

 

one of the ways to possibly  find that out would be to V62 an Ex heywood machine and see if they do the usual 2 week V712 notification letter to the previous keeper or not, (which is when the person applying for the V5 also gets the "we got your application and a V5 will be issued by such and such date" letter)

details a touch scant here, however I think when a vehicle is in trade/has no current keeper on file, but a V62 application comes in, the DVLA dont bother with a V712 (since theres no one to notify)

(which is how I think, UPB262M's record quick 9 day V62 application happened, application arrived, but no previous keeper to notify so they just sent the fresh V5 in the new keepers name)

but if you do get the usual 2 weeks notification with an Ex Heywood vehicle, then that would tell you that yeah the DVLA do consider the vehicle still registered to whoever the last user was  

 

 

I think I have mentioned it before, but does always amuse me, to know that when a Logbook is applied for an Invacar, that someone somewhere is also getting a "someone has applied for your vehicles logbook" letter about it! 

imagine you have a family thats lived in the same house for generations, and a letter from the DVLA addressed to someones Grandad who passed away 40 years ago lands through the door concerning an Invacar they where the user of back then!

 

I wonder how long before one of us gets such a letter, not knowing that one of the the previous persons to have owned their house, also happened to be the user of the Invacar they just recused from a Tree or something

[High Jetter]

I think the fairly recent facility of noting a death to gov.uk now sends it to all departments, specifically to eliminate this.

[The_Equalizer]

Not sure if this has been mentioned and/or is of interest, but having been on AS for long enough to remember this thread...

The FB group is 'Classic Car Sales Northern Ireland' and the ad was placed yesterday. 

[The_Equalizer]

Oh and it is just over the border in Dundalk. Another screen shot...

[egg]

10 hours ago, High Jetter said:

I think the fairly recent facility of noting a death to gov.uk now sends it to all departments, specifically to eliminate this.

oh god, that reminds me of 'hospital transport' arriving bright and breezy at my mother in laws house a week after my father in law had died in hospital. These things really need to be right.

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, The_Equalizer said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned and/or is of interest, but having been on AS for long enough to remember this thread...

The FB group is 'Classic Car Sales Northern Ireland' and the ad was placed yesterday. 

 

6 hours ago, The_Equalizer said:

Oh and it is just over the border in Dundalk. Another screen shot...

interesting to see that one finally pop up, its been floating around for a long time, I used its body off pictures back in 2019 to assist @egg with his Mk12c at the time  

 

on that, note its a 7 inch head lamp car but C-tube front suspension that makes it a very rare Invacar Mk12D, not many of those survive compared to later Mk12E's, but sadly I dont see a chassis plate anywhere in those pictures

do wonder what the guy means by "does have a ZN reg" ZN would be ROI, Meath, and that was never issued during the Mk12D's run, so thats kinda got me scratching my head!

 

 

(speaking of registration marks, I noticed the DVLA have issued the previously unissued "VI" series to Londonderry starting with AVI (LOL) in October 2023, and here I was thinking we might finally get 3 letter reverse marks in NI finally!)

 

[Remspoor]

Screen shots taken from the TV programme about Fred West in Glasgow.

Uploaded in order as the camera tracked.

What is the car? At first I thought it was an AC Petite. I cannot find an example with the ear indicators like here. 

[LightBulbFun]

that Looks like an AC Acedes Model 57 (or Model 64 if electric), an early one Pre 1964 going by said indicator ears  

[LightBulbFun]

On 22/10/2021 at 04:07, LightBulbFun said:

and then theres this thing which I have been able to find 0 info on which may just have run on 600V being a discharge lamp, I swear I recall finding it in an Osram GEC catalog somewhere but I just checked a few from the 1930s, 50's and 60's and was not able to find it there, what is it to be indicating for exactly I wonder...

Osglim was the Brand name GEC used on its negative glow neon lamps back when it was restricted to only being able to use its Osram band name on tungsten filement lamps and also why its carbon filament lamps where branded Robertson, but I digress

I just had a fellow lighting collector drop me a visit, a chap called James, now James is one of the leading lighting collectors out there and also leading experts, he manufacturers and designs lightbulbs for Sylvania  (and in the past worked for GE and Iwasaki), and it was really awesome to get a visit from him, he last dropped by 12 years ago so its been some time! spent lots of time talking about all things lightbulbs, it was awesome  

 

and it was like Christmas come early as he also dropped off a few box loads of some very rare special, prototype and custom made lightbulbs, I have got my work cut out for me tomorrow going through it all

 

but for example for starters, for @PhilA or any other US members, heres a *clear*  3 way bulb, bet you aint see one of these before  (well actually I know Phil is on the same lighting forum as I am on, so he might of seen one, but you know what i mean LOL)

a very small run of these where specially made in clear back in 1997 to show off GE's new 3 lead wire construction (previous 3 ways lamps employed a 4 lead wire system IIRC)

normally 3 way bulbs only ever came in soft white (white opaque) coating

 

anyways where im going with all of this, and why I have quoted the post that I have, is I took the opportunity to ask him about the mystery neon trolley bus lamp 

and he says that according to another collector, Ray Tye, another prolific collector who has been collecting lamps since Trolley buses roamed the streets of London, that this neon lamp was part of some indicator in or on the bus, that would change from red to blue (or blue to red?) if someone singled  the bus to stop

im just wondering, @Inspector Morose @Mr Pastry or anyone else who knows their trolley buses if thats something you have seen or heard about? and if so if you know any more details about it?  

 

I am still a little bit unsure about it because on my example  (that was very kindly given to me by photonicinduction a few months back) the lamp has an admiralty number on it (mine is sadly missing an end cap)

so I do still wonder was it really made for London transport? so yeah given the new information I thought I would bring it back up incase it jogs anyones memory   

 

[Mr Pastry]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

that this neon lamp was part of some indicator in or on the bus, that would change from red to blue (or blue to red?) if someone singled  the bus to stop

This jogs a very vague memory, but that's all.  I last rode on a London trolley when they were in service, so a long time ago - others probably have more recent experience.   What is a bit surprising to me is that it is a 600 volt lamp - I'd have expected an indicator (and the bell) to be on a low voltage circuit.   It would be interesting to know how it works.  I suppose mercury would give you a blue light and neon would give you a red, but can you do that in the same envelope, and why do it that way anyway?

 

 

[Inspector Morose]

Of the few LT trolleybuses that I’ve powered up, I have not seen anything like that! Most of theirs ran motor gen sets for interior lighting so a 600v bulb would lead me to think that this could have been part of the dewirement indicator in the cab - I’ve come across uses of neons in those but never seen two colour ones used.

[LightBulbFun]

10 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

This jogs a very vague memory, but that's all.  I last rode on a London trolley when they were in service, so a long time ago - others probably have more recent experience.   What is a bit surprising to me is that it is a 600 volt lamp - I'd have expected an indicator (and the bell) to be on a low voltage circuit.   It would be interesting to know how it works.  I suppose mercury would give you a blue light and neon would give you a red, but can you do that in the same envelope, and why do it that way anyway?

 

1 hour ago, Inspector Morose said:

Of the few LT trolleybuses that I’ve powered up, I have not seen anything like that! Most of theirs ran motor gen sets for interior lighting so a 600v bulb would lead me to think that this could have been part of the dewirement indicator in the cab - I’ve come across uses of neons in those but never seen two colour ones used.

interesting! I too wonder how it works! still not figured that out yet! it certainly contains Neon and Mercury in it, but a lot of higher power Negative glow neon lamps do contain mercury as standard, but its used as a means to improve lamp life (by reducing the rate of electrode sputtering)  and is not normally part of the main discharge, but if you excite/drive one in a particular way, it is possible to ionise that mercury instead of the neon and get one to glow blue, but I have only seen that done under conditions I dont think would be present on a Trolley bus?, so it very much is a lamp thats got me scratching my head!

its electrical specifications are strange also in that its etch says "220V 5W" but I dont think it ever had an internal ballasting resistor, so the voltage rating is a bit meaningless as its a discharge lamp (its voltage drop would probably be about 65V-110V) however being a Neon lamp it would certainly be unlikely to be driven from any sort of low voltage circuit

and wherever it was used, it would of been used in series with some sort of resistor to limit the drive current to what it was designed for, but it certainly is a DC lamp, both its asymmetrical electrode construction tell me that, (as you would expect from a negative glow lamp the large flat electrode is the negative one) and the fact its one remaining lamp cap has a + symbol inked on it

the date code on my example date it to November 1948 or November 1956, if that helps any!

[Mr Pastry]

On 25/11/2023 at 11:25, LightBulbFun said:

interesting! I too wonder how it works! still not figured that out yet! it certainly contains Neon and Mercury in it, but a lot of higher power Negative glow neon lamps do contain mercury as standard, but its used as a means to improve lamp life (by reducing the rate of electrode sputtering)  and is not normally part of the main discharge, but if you excite/drive one in a particular way, it is possible to ionise that mercury instead of the neon and get one to glow blue, but I have only seen that done under conditions I dont think would be present on a Trolley bus?, so it very much is a lamp thats got me scratching my head!

its electrical specifications are strange also in that its etch says "220V 5W" but I dont think it ever had an internal ballasting resistor, so the voltage rating is a bit meaningless as its a discharge lamp (its voltage drop would probably be about 65V-110V) however being a Neon lamp it would certainly be unlikely to be driven from any sort of low voltage circuit

and wherever it was used, it would of been used in series with some sort of resistor to limit the drive current to what it was designed for, but it certainly is a DC lamp, both its asymmetrical electrode construction tell me that, (as you would expect from a negative glow lamp the large flat electrode is the negative one) and the fact its one remaining lamp cap has a + symbol inked on it

the date code on my example date it to November 1948 or November 1956, if that helps any!

Somewhere - London Transport Museum or Sandtoft, maybe, there must be some decent technical info about trolleybuses.  There must have been documentation for internal use which hopefully would have been preserved.   

[LightBulbFun]

On 26/11/2023 at 19:15, Mr Pastry said:

Somewhere - London Transport Museum or Sandtoft, maybe, there must be some decent technical info about trolleybuses.  There must have been documentation for internal use which hopefully would have been preserved.   

thats why I tagged @Inspector Morose if anyone is a trolley bus in human form its probably him, mad as a box of frogs he is, get it?  (sorry....)

 

speaking of buses and relevant to this thread, spotted on twitter just now a video of TPE409S being filmed driving around a yard somewhere, with a couple Routemasters in the background  

https://twitter.com/NickLov05153866/status/1728129939545944142

 

[ruffgeezer]

On 14/10/2023 at 23:29, LightBulbFun said:

 

Ahh GVW564H a bit of a mystery car that one is! I have known about it for years but dont know much about it at the same time

while you where stalking each other, no one happened to grab a Chassis plate shot did they?  

its one I find curious based on the very short amount of time it spent on the road, and then got donated to the museum, I have to wonder when the museum actually got it?

I do almost wonder if its a private car? but I'd need to see the chassis plate to confirm that (or see its entry in the Essex's archives)

or if it it was a DHSS reserve car that got donated to the museum in the 1990's when Julian Nowil did his wrangling with the Ministry to get a few Villiers machines donated to museums before they all went extinct

Hope these come out OK, I checked over my shoulder, but no @DeanH loitering today.

[LightBulbFun]

33 minutes ago, ruffgeezer said:

Hope these come out OK, I checked kcee my shoulder, but no @DeanH loitering today.

Awesome! many thanks for grabbing those shots, came out perfectly! and the chassis number lines up with my chassis number calculations perfectly so thats good to see

but it also interesting as it tells me its a Ministry example, which is really curious, I really wonder what its actual story is, how did a Ministry example, end up in Museum so long ago, back when no one care about them, back when they where common street furniture

from what I understand this come off the road in 1976 and ended up with the museum soon after (assuming what the museum themselves are saying is accurate, yeah I know!) so I really do wonder how it ended up with them, back in 1976, very few regular people cared about these vehicles from a preservation point of view, so its really quite interesting to see

and its interesting to see the slight damage to the chassis plate, I do wonder if they started to strip it off the machine for disposal and then when they realised its going to a museum they hastily stuck it back on/stopped removing it?  

 

it reminds me of GPG721K, that one also ended up with the Glasgow Transport museum, in 1980! another one that I have wondered about, again no one cared about Model 70's back then so I wonder how they ended up with it exactly  

[sdkrc]

Sorry for the eBay spam. I'm hoping if I post enough of these there'll be one you weren't aware of

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186185895815

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, sdkrc said:

Sorry for the eBay spam. I'm hoping if I post enough of these there'll be one you weren't aware of

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186185895815

No problems! I really appreciate it regardless, although, I have seen this one before  

its a very nice Model 70, I would not mind it myself to go with REV!, it will be interesting to see what it goes for

KPK has always amused me because, it looks much newer then it is, in that its got Rubbolite rear lights, 10 inch wheels and retroreflective plates and shiny paintwork

it also has an engine from a later Model 70, however the rest of the car does look period, its certainly on a Mark A, AC chassis, and the rest of the features do match up with it being an early machine, so from that theres a good chance it is what it says it is, although of course goes without saying, I always recommend checking the ID's to be safe  

 

 

when new it would of had pressed silver on black bordered number plates, and black 12 inch wheels with the bigger (CEP or LEP?) rear lights

[LightBulbFun]

Looks like Simon has treated himself to an early Christmas gift

I know Simon does know a couple good mechanics that have gotten other machines in his collection running, so hopefully we might see LPD806D running and driving at some point