invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[Weird Car]

What a collection caper, more to come when I'm home.

[LightBulbFun]

7 minutes ago, Harriytait said:

What a collection caper, more to come when I'm home.

Can confirm as I happened to be awake at 4AM when said collection caper started! I hope when you say "what a collection caper" you mean that in a good sense! and that it all went smoothly  

 

and of course I am very pleased to see you have managed to procure yourself a Model 70 and that VJN953S is going into good hands and staying within the fold somewhat  

I look forward to the detailed post when you get home! and I look forward to the progress you will hopefully make in returning VJN953S to the road  (Luckily me and @OldBlokeInACaravan have already done all the hard work wrangling with the DVLA to get it un-scrapped and a current V5c issued!)

[LightBulbFun]

it seems to be the season for Invalid carriages on ebay, as well as the lot that @OldBlokeInACaravan has been selling

a petrol powered Harding has also popped up  

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353877562438

quite pleased to find this one actually, as I found it many moons ago and noted that it had a Daylight MOT, but ever since then I could not figure out which of the many IC's that was one was (there have been times when I have needed to give an example of a Daylight MOT) glad to have finally found again which one it was!

however an Invalid carriage, is a vehicle which is not MOTable/should be MOT'ed

although a number have been MOT'ed (and subsequently robbed of their number plate which should not have been allowed as DVLA rules state you can only rob the number plate off a vehicle which has to go through an MOT, which is why you never see plate robbed milk floats thankfully for example)

im guessing they manage to get MOT'ed because they just get chucked in as a Tricycle and the MOT men not knowing their own rules! 

[Mrs6C]

1 hour ago, Harriytait said:

What a collection caper, more to come when I'm home.

Huzzah!

[richardmorris]

3 hours ago, Harriytait said:

What a collection caper, more to come when I'm home.

In the words of an audience member of mike winters when Bernie appeared on stage. Oh god, there’s another one.

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, richardmorris said:

In the words of an audience member of mike winters when Bernie appeared on stage. Oh god, there’s another one.

someones not been keeping up!, its only been on the forum/thread since Page 179  

its the Model 70 that @OldBlokeInACaravan owned for a time, its now passed to @Harriytait 

(there are technically about ~20 Invacars owned by various members here ) 

[High Jetter]

Is there a noun for such a group?

[LightBulbFun]

5 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

Is there a noun for such a group?

a Wobble?  

*mumbles something about Page 60*

 

[LightBulbFun]

On 23/01/2022 at 12:45, LightBulbFun said:

speaking of Dolly, I found a Tax disk on ebay for one her close relatives so to speak! OPH776R in this case  

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184979617468

after doing a bit of bashing and finding this tax disc on ebay (sadly its not easy to search for AC specific stuff on ebay, or anywhere TBH! given, well AC is just 2 letters!)

 

I decided to do a bit more bashing, and unearthed this very nifty find

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265385172476

its the tax disk for GPD825J, the 45th  AC Model 70 off the production line  part of the very first Block of 50 production cars GPD781J-GPD830J

so its very awesome to see  especially  as its some material evidence to go with my prior DVLA findings (all the way back on Page 70/71)

and as a side thing I imagine it would also a handy reference for @Zelandeth for fine tuning TPA's replica Tax disk, given TPA was first registered 31st of August 1973, TPA's first tax disk would be one of this style, displaying JUL 74 or AUG 74, (im not actually sure which TPA would of been issued given she was registered on the last day of the month! and I dont know if back then they where kind, or if they screwed you out of a month of VED)

and GPD's tax disk above was even issued by Bucks CC, so you can replicate that issuing stamp for bonus local points!  (I THINK Milton Keynes would of been under Bucks County council back in the day anyhow!)

 

[Zelandeth]

16 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

it seems to be the season for Invalid carriages on ebay, as well as the lot that @OldBlokeInACaravan has been selling

a petrol powered Harding has also popped up  

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353877562438

quite pleased to find this one actually, as I found it many moons ago and noted that it had a Daylight MOT, but ever since then I could not figure out which of the many IC's that was one was (there have been times when I have needed to give an example of a Daylight MOT) glad to have finally found again which one it was!

however an Invalid carriage, is a vehicle which is not MOTable/should be MOT'ed

although a number have been MOT'ed (and subsequently robbed of their number plate which should not have been allowed as DVLA rules state you can only rob the number plate off a vehicle which has to go through an MOT, which is why you never see plate robbed milk floats thankfully for example)

im guessing they manage to get MOT'ed because they just get chucked in as a Tricycle and the MOT men not knowing their own rules! 

I do find myself wondering exactly how sketchy something like that is to...ride...drive?  Whichever makes most sense, compared to a motorbike with sidecar from the same era.  Obviously a significant learning curve figuring out the controls first though!

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

I do find myself wondering exactly how sketchy something like that is to...ride...drive?  Whichever makes most sense, compared to a motorbike with sidecar from the same era.  Obviously a significant learning curve figuring out the controls first though!

Yeah I have been very curious of that myself for a long time!, id love to get a go of any Villiers powered machine at some point!

especially given all the extra operations you have to do namely clutch and gear change, I think @egg is the only person on this forum to do so  

 

for example that broom handle thing on its right/offside im pretty positive is your front wheel steering! you grab that and twist it to move the front wheel, which much be quite uncomfortable given how up right it is and given you would be sitting down! but as above I have never had the opportunity to try one sadly

but bet that must be fun to control when your hurtling down the road at 40Mph...

 

it probably is a good thing I have no means of extra car storage or id of probably already found myself making some silly purchase!

[CaptainBoom]

21 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yeah I have been very curious of that myself for a long time!, id love to get a go of any Villiers powered machine at some point!

especially given all the extra operations you have to do namely clutch and gear change, I think @egg is the only person on this forum to do so  

 

for example that broom handle thing on its right/offside im pretty positive is your front wheel steering! you grab that and twist it to move the front wheel, which much be quite uncomfortable given how up right it is and given you would be sitting down! but as above I have never had the opportunity to try one sadly

but bet that must be fun to control when your hurtling down the road at 40Mph...

 

it probably is a good thing I have no means of extra car storage or id of probably already found myself making some silly purchase!

If you did buy that one, the number plate is eerily close to your username...

[LightBulbFun]

15 minutes ago, CaptainBoom said:

If you did buy that one, the number plate is eerily close to your username...

Yeah that has caused me to double take on a number of occasions when I have been checking my lists!

(it is notable in that LFB209 is Bath registration number so the machine will have more then likely have been first registered by R A Harding (Bath) themselves)

 

contuning on the Tax discs I managed to find this one, which will have been the first tax disc issued to this particular machine KPH143C, an AC Model 57 (or Model 64, still need to check, but I think the former) when it was first registered in 1965  

so now we do have a Surrey CC stamp   (which is what TPA's and other such AC's first tax disc would have had when new/first issued)

 

[Weird Car]

She's landed.

Left at 4 o'clock yesterday morning for Lancaster to meet the courier and got back at 1 last night. Definitely an experience for sure.

[LightBulbFun]

45 minutes ago, Harriytait said:

She's landed.

Left at 4 o'clock yesterday morning for Lancaster to meet the courier and got back at 1 last night. Definitely an experience for sure.

glad to see she has landed at long last  

also quite fun seeing the Euston shots, as I was also went through there when collecting REV  

 

seeing as she is parked outside like that, I recommend as a first port of call, to get the flat tyre sorted and give VJN a good clean, just to make sure no one tries to report it as an Abandoned car!, or have her attract attention from the wrong crowd! 

 

thankfully she is a 10 inch wheel car, so tyre options are plentiful  (as the wheel and tyres are shared with the classic Mini) they are 145R10 in Radial speak or 520-10 in Cross ply speak

 

as a side note it would be quite interesting to conduct a handling and driving dynamics  comparison of the Model 70's on the forum

I have Falken SN807 fitted to REV, Zel has Camac BN313 fitted to TPA, Adam has Camac BN110's fitted to his 10 inch cars and Pirelli Cinturato CN54 to his 12 inch cars, and Dollywobbler has Michelin X's fitted to TWC's 12 inch wheels

so we have a nice spread of different tyres fitted across the Model 70's on the forum  

 

[Squire_Dawson]

 

 

These things remind me of that Lowry painting, 'The Contraption'.

 

 

Quote

The inspiration for The Contraption came from the driver of the vehicle once having shouted abuse at Lowry. Intrigued, Lowry followed it down the street, since it seemed another despicable object of the modern town like the mills and the scenes of poverty that attracted him.

 

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, Squire_Dawson said:

 

 

These things remind me of that Lowry painting, 'The Contraption'.

 

 

 

obviously a bit hard to say based on a fairly simple drawing but that looks a lot like a Harding Rideinease  

[Zelandeth]

9 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Yeah I have been very curious of that myself for a long time!, id love to get a go of any Villiers powered machine at some point!

especially given all the extra operations you have to do namely clutch and gear change, I think @egg is the only person on this forum to do so  

 

for example that broom handle thing on its right/offside im pretty positive is your front wheel steering! you grab that and twist it to move the front wheel, which much be quite uncomfortable given how up right it is and given you would be sitting down! but as above I have never had the opportunity to try one sadly

but bet that must be fun to control when your hurtling down the road at 40Mph...

 

it probably is a good thing I have no means of extra car storage or id of probably already found myself making some silly purchase!

Likewise it's probably lucky I don't have the space as I'd be quite tempted myself.  Not for something I'd use anywhere as near as regularly as a normal car as TPA, but more of a show curiousity to be kept for quiet Sunday afternoon bumbling to the odd show - ideally on quieter roads once I get back up north!

From a driving license perspective, would that be treated as a car or a bike?  Seems far more motorbike-like than car-like.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

Likewise it's probably lucky I don't have the space as I'd be quite tempted myself.  Not for something I'd use anywhere as near as regularly as a normal car as TPA, but more of a show curiousity to be kept for quiet Sunday afternoon bumbling to the odd show - ideally on quieter roads once I get back up north!

ahh I love this forum!  

its only on this forum where you would get "yeah id get a Harding as a Sunday toy to go with my Daily Model 70" most people out there get a Model 70 as their Sunday toy (if that, most sadly rarely see the road) to go with whatever boring modern they have!  

and Yeah! taking a Villers machine like this on Milton Keynes's 70Mph Round about network could be interesting to say the least! (they have a top speed of about 40-50Mph depending on the exact machine and what gearing you have, ie if it was set up for a fat person and/or hilly districts)

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

From a driving license perspective, would that be treated as a car or a bike?  Seems far more motorbike-like than car-like.

thats a good question because its neither!

it is an invalid carriage in the fullest sense of the term 

Quote

"In this Act `invalid carriage' means a mechanically propelled vehicle the weight of which unladen does not exceed 254 kilograms and which is specifically designed and constructed, and not merely adapted, for the use of a person suffering from some physical defect or disability and is used solely by such a person".

and a disabled person would be issued an invalid carriage licence upon passing their driving test

 

I have never been able to find out exactly what an invalid carriage is when it is not in use as an invalid carriage so to speak, but I would think it would fall into whatever regular vehicle category the vehicle in question best fits into/resembles*

in this case it is clearly a 3 wheeled motor propelled tricycle which you can drive on a car (category B ) licence without issue if your over 21 https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped

so I dont see any licensing issues for you

 

*unless specifically stated otherwise, for example with regards to invalid carriages which exceed 254Kg

Quote

3.  If an invalid carriage exceeds 254 kg in unladen weight it will not be classified as an "invalid carriage" for the purposes of the RTA 1988, the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (the "RTOA") and the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (the "RTRA") and of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) (the "Construction and use Regulations"). It will, instead be a motor car or, if it has less than four wheels and the weight does not exceed 410 kg, a motor cycle.
  4.  Therefore a carriage for invalids over 254 kg is not an "invalid carriage" but will fall within whatever category is appropriate for the particular vehicle and the RTA 1988 the RTOA, the RTRA and the Construction and use Regulations will apply, for example, the requirement that drivers of motor vehicles have driving licences and compulsory insurance against third-party risks.[1] (Section 143(4) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 provides that Part VI of that Act, which includes provisions relating to compulsory insurance requirements, does not apply to invalid carriages. However, the Department strongly encourages individuals to take out insurance on a voluntary basis).

which is why legally TPA is a Motor Tricycle while REV is a Motor Car, and as such I think Later Model 70's are one of the few 3 wheelers you can legally drive on a car licence before you are 21

and its why as you know the V5 for any invalid motor vehicle, it specifically says on the V5c "Invalid vehicle" for body/vehicle type rather than invalid carriage, because legally not all invalid carriages are invalid carriages! and is why most invalid vehicles have a revenue weight listed on their V5 (and Buff logbook back in the day)

and is why I always say "invalid vehicle" rather then invalid carriage most of the time  ie "Ministry Invalid vehicles where serviced by approved repairers" 

 

this is a good example of how people and time have just forgotten about the invacar so to speak and how it just sort of sits in a void of ambiguity! 

if you try and find anything about invalid carriage legislation  all you get is "Class 1 Class 2, Class 3 invalid carriages" which is just stuff about wheel chairs and mobility scooters

you wont find much pertaining to actual old school invalid vehicles!

[JJ0063]

58 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

 the few 3 wheelers you can legally drive on a car licence before you are 21

Pretty sure you could/can have one on a provisional/CBT at 16 if it meets certain criteria as above. I’ve 100% insured 16 year olds on cars over the last 10 years - reliant 3 wheelers, Aixams etc.

[D.E]

@LightBulbFun Ever seen these pictures? 

British disabled veterans visiting Arnhem, June 1950.

British veterans visiting the Soestdijk palace, June 1951.

[Weird Car]

Found in the foot well whilst working on VJN 

She's now on good wheels and I've got the handbrake working nice and smoothly after a good greasing.

Strangely it doesn't seem to have a ratchet mechanism like TWC, did later cars not have this? 

[LightBulbFun]

56 minutes ago, D.E said:

@LightBulbFun Ever seen these pictures? 

British disabled veterans vsisiting Arnhem, June 1950.

British veterans visiting the Soestdijk palace, June 1951.

oooh thats very interesting! thank you for sharing those  

I had not seen those pictures, I thought I had some of the same event, turns I did not, I just had a picture of a similar event in Sweden! (took quite a bit of digging to unearth it again!)

some well travelled invalid carriages!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/950689934973969/posts/2455936564449291/

 

[LightBulbFun]

 

55 minutes ago, Harriytait said:

Found in the foot well whilst working on VJN 

She's now on good wheels and I've got the handbrake working nice and smoothly after a good greasing.

Strangely it doesn't seem to have a ratchet mechanism like TWC did later cars not have this? 

thats interesting! I cant quite work out what the text says, but the date is interesting 29th of 10th 1991 is after she came off the road, she was marked scrapped on the 11th of December 1990, and her tax ran out on the 1st of July 1991

so its interesting to see as VJN953S had some things about her that make me think that she ended her days in service wearing the number plates from another Model 70, and I wonder if this is further proof of that  sadly she came to us with no number plates so I cant say what Model 70's ID she was wearing if she did indeed end her days under the ID of another (regardless of what happened, they at least left her Chassis plate alone and I was able to confirm it matches with the chassis stamped number as well)

its also worth noting that VJN has had the engine from a much older Model 70 fitted to her, to someone with an eye for the details like myself its weird seeing a Cartridge oil filter engine in a Rollover Bar Model 70 Mk B chassis that VJN is  

I do wonder if she also has an earlier Weber 32ICS3 Carb that would of gone with that engine or if she still has her later Weber 32ICS10T carb that would of gone with her original engine 

 

I believe her handbrake should have a Ratchet in it! I know REV's one does, but VJN is part of the final Ministry contract, and AC did start a new chassis block for that, so maybe small changes where made?

but id think it would still have a ratcheting handbrake 

[High Jetter]

'Brake oil'?

[Weird Car]

So LBF was correct, I've now unseized the hand brake rachet 'sadly I can't upload the video of it working' but I can upload the picture of VJN after a quick bath 😎

[Missy Charm]

2 hours ago, D.E said:

@LightBulbFun Ever seen these pictures? 

British disabled veterans visiting Arnhem, June 1950.

British veterans visiting the Soestdijk palace, June 1951.

Not seen them before, so thank you.  The quiet determination and force of will those people had really is something to behold; there's a sense of a polite but absolute refusal to give up hope about those driving the little machines.  Quite rewarding too, presumably, for them to be able to see Arnhem as it should be.  

 

[LightBulbFun]

14 minutes ago, Harriytait said:

So LBF was correct, I've now unseized the hand brake rachet 'sadly I can't upload the video of it working' but I can upload the picture of VJN after a quick bath 😎

Oooh that photo is very interesting!

as it shows the little bit of, for lack of a better term PVC electrical conduit tied to the steering bar

that was AFAIK a rather late modification, one done in the Late 1990's or early 2000's I think (much like the Stainless steel floors)

I know someone who has a bag of those which included the corresponding fitting letter, I must see when that was dated too, but its only something I have seen on late service machines like TPA etc

 

and glad to hear you managed to un-size the handbrake some more! and get some air into the flat tyre I see  

now you just need to get her lined up straight in her parking bay because her sitting wonky like that is making my teeth itch

[Weird Car]

15 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Oooh that photo is very interesting!

as it shows the little bit of, for lack of a better term PVC electrical conduit tied to the steering bar

that was AFAIK a rather late modification, one done in the Late 1990's or early 2000's I think (much like the Stainless steel floors)

I know someone who has a bag of those which included the corresponding fitting letter, I must see when that was dated too, but its only something I have seen on late service machines like TPA etc

 

and glad to hear you managed to un-size the handbrake some more! and get some air into the flat tyre I see  

now you just need to get her lined up straight in her parking bay because her sitting wonky like that is making my teeth itch

She is straight lol

[Six-cylinder]

Have you seen this spotting photo on FB today?