invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[Eyersey1234]

49 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

I have been wondering what other countries had them, whether as a national social/health provision or as private, commercially available vehicles. It would make sense for British invalid vehicles to have made their ways to various Commonwealth countries, but did other European countries have their own makes and models as well?

I'd be surprised if other European countries didn't have an equivalent to them

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, martc said:

OK, lets move away from Blighty's invalid carriages for a second and go further east.  Here is an SMZ S-3A M in Moscow, photographed in December 1982. They were produced in Serpukhov, by the Serpukhov Motor Works, from 1958–1970. They were available free form the state for physically disabled persons, and, like Invacars, various configurations of controls were available.They are 'powered' by a 346 cc single-cylinder two-stroke engine, giving 7 kW (about 10hp) and a top speed of 55 km/h (34 mph ish).  A quick image search shows they were available in a variety of bright colours, and a shade similar to NHS blue!

indeed there where a number of soviet "Invalidka"'s as they where known made 

from the SMZ S1L, which was even a 3 wheeler like British machines

to the Model you mention S-3A

and finally ending with the SMZ S3D 

which ended production only in 1997!

one of which has been for sale on car and classic for about 300 years now! (would be fun if someone here ends up getting a Russian Invalid car, I especially like the boxy almost toy car like looks of the S3D ) 

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1115317

I think before these 3 there was also a motorbike based invalid carriage

59 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

I have been wondering what other countries had them, whether as a national social/health provision or as private, commercially available vehicles. It would make sense for British invalid vehicles to have made their ways to various Commonwealth countries, but did other European countries have their own makes and models as well?

indeed a few European countries indeed made their own invalid carriages, but most never progressed beyond Adapted 3 wheel motorcycle type contraption 

even the US had the "Custer Chair"  

and here is some examples that @egg found 

On 30/05/2020 at 12:32, egg said:

From Instagram, it's not all pouting young ladies. User is 'Fuldamobil'

I also know somewhere on this forum is a picture of another European or East European Invalid carriage using the front end of a Moped rather than a traditional motorcycle 

[Mrs6C]

55 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

the SMZ S1L, which was even a 3 wheeler like British machines

That is lovely!

[martc]

Talking of 3 wheel motorcycle contraptions, the proud people of the German Democratic Republic had use of the Simson Duo, which evolved from this -

to this -

some info, in German, https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duo_(Krankenfahrzeug)  it looks like they were made until 1991.

Over the border the Czechoslovaks rolled around in the Velorex Oskar 54 and variants, powered by a Jawa 350 two stroke twin, made up to 1973, they were also exported to proud comrades in Hungary, Poland and Bulgaria -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velorex

Motorcyclists will instantly recognise the name Simson, and should also be familiar with Velorex who, still, make sidecars.

Over the border, in West Germany, there was the Fend Flitzer 101 but only 250 were made, the last in 1951 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fend_Flitzer

Another German manufacturer, Meyra, who are still with us making wheelchairs, made the Model E37, it's difficult to find much info on this one -

And here's one for the detectives, I've actually seen this in the Schlumpf collection in Mulhouse. It is one of the few images that appear when you look for 'French Invalid Carriage', but what is it?

I suspect wide use of 'Sans Permit' 'cars' by the disabled in France.

[barrett]

That last one is a Scott Sociable - nothing to do with invalid carriages, just an unusual diamond pattern three-wheeler. I think perhaps only three survive, and I'd really like to have one

[MT606]

I'm liking that flitzer....

[somewhatfoolish]

On 3/19/2021 at 7:34 PM, AdgeCutler said:

 

 

If you've no spare of the fan I'd break off the blade opposite the broken ones to maintain balance, otherwise it will likely vibrate(well, more so than a Villiers single does normally).

[martc]

17 hours ago, barrett said:

That last one is a Scott Sociable - nothing to do with invalid carriages, just an unusual diamond pattern three-wheeler. I think perhaps only three survive, and I'd really like to have one

Of course it is! Thanks, the memories come flooding back - it was one of only a few British built cars on exhibition at Mulhouse at the time of my two visits.

[Mr Pastry]

 Villiers 11Efor spares on Ebay atm. It's a 313F.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VILLIERS-ENGINE-11E/224389785956?

[LightBulbFun]

in other Invacar Mk12 news, came across a picture of another OO Mk12, this time with a full 4 digit number plate  

goes along with this one I unearthed a while back  but its neat to find one with a full 4 digit plate

OO was the very last 2 digit 4 number registration series issued in period, it was issued to Essex when they began to run out of marks in the early 1960's (along with WC, but WC was never issued on its own like OO was), those who may recall my previous post on this subject may recall that I was wondering why OO never got issued in period during 1904-1930's, apparently its because like WC, OO or 00 im not sure which exactly, also used to mean "toilet" so makes sense why they never initially issued it!

its fun to note because not only is it a 1904-1930's style registration series that was issued in the 1960's leading to some fun "early" registration madness 

but Invacar Mk12's where in production during the whole change over from dateless plates of all styles in this case to Suffix dated plate

Essex was even one of the few County councils that Issued A suffix in period, and have wondered if any A suffix Invacars where ever registered! 

so as such I wonder if I can find pictures/examples of Invacar Mk12's with each plate style

so far I have come across OO259 and the OO car above who's registration is not fully clear sadly, then PWC801, 45AOO (and a good few others with reverse 3 number 3 letter plates like the xxxUPU cars from the Belfast clip), I just need to find a 4 number 2 letter reverse plate car and then an A Suffix car and then ill have a full house of Invacar Mk12's on all the old timey registration plate formats  

the last 4 number 2 letter reverse plate series was issued by Essex just as the Invacar Mk12 entered production in 1960 and A Suffix was only issued for only a few months during the later months of 1963, so remains to be seen if any where actually registered into any of those series

(I have at least come across one (private) AC Acedes with a Genuine A suffix plate DMG197A  )

so far this is the earliest example of a Suffix plate Mk12 I have been able to find I think

and for good measure here is a reverse 3 number 3 letter Invacar Mk12  

 

[LightBulbFun]

2 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

 Villiers 11Efor spares on Ebay atm. It's a 313F.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VILLIERS-ENGINE-11E/224389785956?

ah very cool, wonder what sort of reaction I would get if I asked the seller "So where is the rest of the Invacar Mk12?"  (since thats what its out of)

one for @AdgeCutler or @Mrs6C  

[AdgeCutler]

22 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

If you've no spare of the fan I'd break off the blade opposite the broken ones to maintain balance, otherwise it will likely vibrate(well, more so than a Villiers single does normally).

I have had to do that on a recent restoration, try as I might I couldn't get hold of another fan but that was a Junior deluxe and most didn't have fans as they were usually installed on motorbikes. That one was only missing one vane.

I've been playing with both Inva engines this weekend and started on the engine that was in the car and lost 10 hours to it on Saturday, it nearly broke my will with what I found. The primary chain case had for many years been half full of water and everything within is useless, everything in the lower half is eaten away to next to no thickness and the chain snapped after only light pressure was applied to it. I ended up cutting the clutch retaining nut off and concentrated then on removing the gearbox. Looking into the gearbox was a nice relief after what I had just witnessed in the primary chain/clutch department. After that I spent hours heating the cylinder and trying to press the Piston out of the bore, I've still not won that battle. Instead I've just managed to compress the wooden round that I made to fit in the bore.

I had spotted the 11e on the bidding site and had made an initial bid but I see somebody else has placed a bid today  . 

[Mrs6C]

3 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

I had spotted the 11e on the bidding site and had made an initial bid but I see somebody else has placed a bid today  . 

It wasn't me! You go ahead and bid on it. It would be great if it ended up with you.

[bobdisk]

That same seller, Markstrucker2008, has another Villiers engine for sale,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vintage-villiers-engine/224389804549?

[Zelandeth]

Continuing to work my way through building the webpage for TPA on my site...given there's two plus years of story to document it's taking a while.

Something I'm including as a standalone page there is a list of documentation that I've got in digital form for these cars as that's surely something useful for folks who are looking to restore one, or might just be interesting.

I've got:

[] DHSS Workshop manual for Model 70.

[] DHSS Parts List, various models.

[] Invacar user manual for Mark 12E.

[] Villiers 9/11E Two Stroke Engineer user's manual.

[] Complimentary brochures "How to keep your motorcycle tyres for" and "How to prevent a flat tyre" which we believe shipped with the Mark 12E.

 

Anyone got anything else that you think might be handy that I could include there?

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Continuing to work my way through building the webpage for TPA on my site...given there's two plus years of story to document it's taking a while.

Something I'm including as a standalone page there is a list of documentation that I've got in digital form for these cars as that's surely something useful for folks who are looking to restore one, or might just be interesting.

I've got:

[] DHSS Workshop manual for Model 70.

[] DHSS Parts List, various models.

[] Invacar user manual for Mark 12E.

[] Villiers 9/11E Two Stroke Engineer user's manual.

[] Complimentary brochures "How to keep your motorcycle tyres for" and "How to prevent a flat tyre" which we believe shipped with the Mark 12E.

 

Anyone got anything else that you think might be handy that I could include there?

glad to hear the Page on TPA is progressing I am most looking forward to reading it when it comes out  

 

list looks good to me, only major thing missing is the DHSS Model 70 Automatic Invalid Three-Wheeler Drivers handbook

I have a later one in good condition I got recently, really should have coordinated it so it went to yours for scanning, but I just went "oooh yes please *buy*" when I saw it 

I can try and scan it in on my scanner at home or just hand it to you at some point for you to scan in if you want to do it yourself?  

 

but if nothing else I uploaded pictures of every page on the first post on page 178 which your welcome to use

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-invacar-model-70-acquired-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-model-70-survivors-list-on-page-24-pre-model-70-ac-and-invacar-survivors-lists-on-page-134/page/178/

(theres at least 3 versions of this handbook for what its worth, shame my older one is missing a few pages)

 

 

on the DHSS Parts list front, I would be a bit weary of sharing that publicly as it contains both Registration and Chassis numbers of various vehicles, and I dont want someone to do something nefarious with that info 

so if you do want to share it publicly, I would recommend at least blanking out all the chassis numbers when they are found next to their corresponding registration numbers

 

 

another thing that might be worth including/linking too that came to mind while typing this is the Girling parts list thingies

 

heres the AC one

https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/94895fc8/files/uploaded/GIRLING VEHICLE APPLICATIONS. AC. ABARTH. ALFA. ASTON MARTIN%2C AUSTIN. HEALEY. BARRETT%2C BOND%2C CLAN%2C DAIMLER%2C ELVA. 1960-85.pdf

and heres the Invacar one

https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/94895fc8/files/uploaded/VEHICLE APPLICATIONS GINETTA. GORDON. HILLMAN. HOLDEN. HUMBER. ISO. JAGUAR. JENSEN. LAGONDA. LAMBORGHINI. LANCIA%2C LOTUS. 1960-1980.pdf

[AdgeCutler]

I have continued to make very slow progress, lots of hours, not so much progress on the stripdown of engine #1 but, every step is painful and the majority of the components are useless  . Eventually the Piston was liberated from the grasp of the cylinder allowing me to split the crankcase. In all the many engines I have stripped and rebuilt before I have not seen the likes of this before, at least not to this extent.  'twas a sad day which left me with a pile of scrap and a few components which may be of use.

With the work being sooooo protracted with little progress making a video wasn't really possible, I did take some video clips but haven't been able to splice them together into something worth sharing. It seems that since I last edited a video for Youtube things have changed. I did try a free editor installed to my Chromebook but as soon as I tried adding the first clip I was told I needed to pay as I was trying to use more memory than was available on the free option. If anybody knows of a free editor that will work on Chromebook, please let me know and I'll try to put it to good use.

Here's the crankcase.

 

 

[AdgeCutler]

Both halves were like that, almost full of rust and not a trace of any oil residues.

[AdgeCutler]

It wouldn't be so bad, but to replace the big end bearings it is necessary to split the crank webs and press in a new oversized pin.  I know where I could have this done but I expect it wont be done for a crate of Cider and a bag of chips.

I have begun to open up engine number 2 in the hope it has fared better. This time I've not found Mr. Mouses horde but rather, his home!

[OldBlokeInACaravan]

6 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Continuing to work my way through building the webpage for TPA on my site...given there's two plus years of story to document it's taking a while.

Something I'm including as a standalone page there is a list of documentation that I've got in digital form for these cars as that's surely something useful for folks who are looking to restore one, or might just be interesting.

I've got:

[] DHSS Workshop manual for Model 70.

[] DHSS Parts List, various models.

[] Invacar user manual for Mark 12E.

[] Villiers 9/11E Two Stroke Engineer user's manual.

[] Complimentary brochures "How to keep your motorcycle tyres for" and "How to prevent a flat tyre" which we believe shipped with the Mark 12E.

 

Anyone got anything else that you think might be handy that I could include there?

Would be great to see a parts list for a Model 70 !   BTW does anyone know the modern part number for points and condenser, Bosch distributor? Cheers

[LightBulbFun]

8 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

I have continued to make very slow progress, lots of hours, not so much progress on the stripdown of engine #1 but every step is painful and the majority of the components are useless  . Eventually the Piston was liberated from the grasp of the cylinder allowing me to split the crankcase. In all the many engines I have stripped and rebuilt before I have not seen the likes of this before, at least not to this extent.  'twas a sad day which left me with a pile of scrap and a few components which may be of use.

With the work being sooooo protracted with little progress making a video wasn't really possible, I did take some video clips but haven't been able to splice them together into something worth sharing. It seems that since I last edited a video for Youtube things have changed. I did try a free editor installed to my Chromebook but as soon as I tried adding the first clip I was told I needed to pay as I was trying to use more memory than was available on the free option. If anybody knows of a free editor that will work on Chromebook, please let me know and I'll try to put it to good use.

Here's the crankcase.

 

 

Eeep! im sorry to see how bad it is!

do you know if the spare engine you got is any good in the places the original one is knackered or have you yet to delve into that one?

 

1 minute ago, AdgeCutler said:

It wouldn't be so bad, but to replace the big end bearings it is necessary to split the crank webs and press in a new oversized pin.  I know where I could have this done but I expect it wont be done for a crate of Cider and a bag of chips.

I have begun to open up engine number 2 in the hope it has fared better. This time I've not found Mr. Mouses horde but rather, his home!

I hope this one is in a bit better shape then the other one, or at least has enough good bits that you can make 1 good one out of the 2

at least Villers 11E bits are relatively easy to come by even today, as over 30,000 Villers 9E and 11E powered invalid vehicles where made between 1957-1971 (11E from 1962 onwards) its no wonder a good number of people built go karts and the such like with the engines, with how many must of been lying around as the Invalid vehicles they where in where withdrawn and scrapped throughout the 1960s-1980's (I know even our own @busmansholiday picked up a bundle of them in the 1980s IIRC!)

and this means today there is still good support for the 11E for all the vintage go karts and the such like out there  (Although it does mean sadly complete engines are also somewhat sought after and I always get worried when a slightly poorly Villers invalid vehicle shows up that it might just get bought and pillaged for its engine)

[LightBulbFun]

24 minutes ago, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

Would be great to see a parts list for a Model 70 !   BTW does anyone know the modern part number for points and condenser, Bosch distributor? Cheers

ah realised I never sent you that! have now In a PM  

 

as for engine/ignition bits,

https://www.haflingertechnik.com/

or

https://prokschi.at/

are the Go to's  

here is a link to the Dizzy cap for example (tis also shared with DAF33's)

https://prokschi.at/puch-500-500-s-from-1968-1973/electrical-parts/distributor-cap.html

as  for the Condenser I would avoid any modern automotive ones as they are all a bit shit and just get some proper electronics/electrical grade Polypropylene capacitors as Zel did here

https://autoshite.com/topic/29443-zels-motoring-adventuresjag-citroens-mercedes-ac-model-70-1703-onboard-video-hardware-upgrade-hopefully/page/117/?tab=comments#comment-2254821

 

[LightBulbFun]

one for @AdgeCutler thats right its the service dockets for your Invacar Mk12E  

 

 

or well at least scans of them, sadly from what I understand they sadly pretty much fell apart when they where found, but thankfully not before Stuart realised what they where and managed to bung em into a scanner before they went *poof* and stuart managed to unearth those scans today  

(side note, dont suppose someone could tell me what the hand written note says? sadly I really struggle to read cursive! but from what I can make out looks like some sort of apology letter for not doing something earlier?)

 

they have been very interesting to study and seeing dates of 1979 etc is good news as thats Post 1974 so that means there is a chance that this Mk12's registration records are hidden away in the DVLA's archives like XWC468F's records where  

and further on that note I have noticed that it seems like a lot of Invacar Mk12's that survived  into the computer era where computerised pretty quickly/early on with a good majority of those still on the DVLA today that show no Keeper changes show "Not Available" for the date of last V5 issued which tells me they last had a V5 issued Before 1979 or so so (as V5's issued at the start, from 1974-1978 where not dated) and so hopefully this is the case for your Mk12 as well as we know from these dockets yours made it into 1979 and if they computerised most surviving Mk12's before 1979 hopefully this includes yours

[500tops]

It says:

 

"Brian

 

I'm sorry I couldn't let you know earlier mate but I was called back to work last minute.

 

All the best

 

John"

[AdgeCutler]

That is exactly what I needed Dez , a little bit of good news to counter the misery of recent discoveries!  I was told by Alan that they were but tattered scraps and so the fact Stuart saw fit to scan them is great.

The Note reads:

Brian,

I'm sorry I couldn't let you know earlier mate but I was called back to work last minute.

All the best, 

John.

So the Invacars owner/user being B. Horne, I guess was Brian, and there was me wondering what name to give the car!

Thank you once again Dez for the time and effort you invest in helping save the story and history of these cars. 

 

[plasticvandan]

The John is John Thorne,he worked for Ashley repairs (later Ashley Healthcare) in Worcester,and later Birmingham when the Worcester branch closed,my grandad worked with him in the 60s until he broke his neck in a crash driving their HA van towing an invacar on a dolly.Ive for photos of the cars lined up behind the hedge where they sat for 40 years somewhere.

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, 500tops said:

It says:

 

"Brian

 

I'm sorry I couldn't let you know earlier mate but I was called back to work last minute.

 

All the best

 

John"

 ah cool thanks for "translating" that for me , did Brian the user wake up one morning to find his Invacar Mk12E Missing, having been quickly snatched for a service and John was not able to let him know earlier or something I wonder? LOL

(side note its interesting how suddenly much clearer it is once someones read/typed it out!)

4 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

That is exactly what I needed Dez , a little bit of good news to counter the misery of recent discoveries!  I was told by Alan that they were but tattered scraps and so the fact Stuart saw fit to scan them is great.

The Note reads:

Brian,

I'm sorry I couldn't let you know earlier mate but I was called back to work last minute.

All the best, 

John.

So the Invacars owner/user being B. Horne, I guess was Brian, and there was me wondering what name to give the car!

Thank you once again Dez for the time and effort you invest in helping save the story and history of these cars. 

 

Yeah I had a feeling you could do with some good news given the recent discoveries! so was glad they where unearthed today  

Yeah I think Brian Horne was the last user of your Invacar Mk12E, which is pretty cool, not many surviving invalid vehicles have such history known about them like this  

4 hours ago, plasticvandan said:

The John is John Thorne,he worked for Ashley repairs (later Ashley Healthcare) in Worcester,and later Birmingham when the Worcester branch closed,my grandad worked with him in the 60s until he broke his neck in a crash driving their HA van towing an invacar on a dolly.Ive for photos of the cars lined up behind the hedge where they sat for 40 years somewhere.

ah thats very cool, well not the broken neck bit obviously, but the rest of it  

it would be fun if you come across a family photo of your Grandad, and spot/see @AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12E in the background, that would be a bit Surreal!  

[OldBlokeInACaravan]

13 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

ah realised I never sent you that! have now In a PM  

 

as for engine/ignition bits,

https://www.haflingertechnik.com/

or

https://prokschi.at/

are the Go to's  

here is a link to the Dizzy cap for example (tis also shared with DAF33's)

https://prokschi.at/puch-500-500-s-from-1968-1973/electrical-parts/distributor-cap.html

as  for the Condenser I would avoid any modern automotive ones as they are all a bit shit and just get some proper electronics/electrical grade Polypropylene capacitors as Zel did here

https://autoshite.com/topic/29443-zels-motoring-adventuresjag-citroens-mercedes-ac-model-70-1703-onboard-video-hardware-upgrade-hopefully/page/117/?tab=comments#comment-2254821

 

Many thanks Sir! Yet again I am in your debt! 

[plasticvandan]

There's certainly a very good chance my grandad will have worked on it,he would have certainly seen the car(as I did many years ago) as he was a good friend of John's for many years,as was my dad.

[Mrs6C]

Looks like the registration number was KPU147J. It doesn't show up on the DVLA website, but perhaps you can find it via the magic tools? I guess the paper registration page can be found in the books at the Essex County Records Office in due course, like those for the Mk12C?