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LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards :) practical driving test passed finally Woo! :D


LightBulbFun

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8 hours ago, Landy Mann said:

Presume you know about this pair in Glasgow transport/Riverside museum?

IMG_20210904_125532.thumb.jpg.60960bccb3412cda93f8b10defbf4e80.jpgIMG_20210904_124105.thumb.jpg.8e6b89db68bc17cf0eb0963b11d39acf.jpgIMG_20210904_124013.thumb.jpg.5f834d0bc7f27d255a286d13578fd218.jpg

Yerp :) GPG721K is the oldest known Model 70 to survive being the 111th off the production line

and I think its one of the earliest Model 70's to enter preservation, I think the museum got it back in 1980

the Gold Invacar Mk12E is one of the Trysull cars for those curious

1 hour ago, catsinthewelder said:

Likewise I imagine this picture has turned up before but just in case it hasn't.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3816531335/

yerp, although its all the railshite thread so I can can understand one not finding it here :) 

On 08/11/2019 at 15:09, Vin said:

03/04/1976 - Whitemoor Junction, March.

 

37052 - 03/04/1976, Whitemoor Jnc, March.

 

On 08/11/2019 at 17:07, 666jjp said:

I assume @LightBulbFun is aware of this pic ^

 

On 08/11/2019 at 17:13, LightBulbFun said:

 

I am now! thanks for the heads up

very interesting to See Invacar Model 70's by train, for some reason I thought this practice stopped some time before the Model 70 entered the scene

so its very cool to see :) 

shame the picture ain't higher rez, but it looks to be Late NHK-P or very early NVW-P cars

 

 

in both cases as always I appreciate the heads up just incase :) 

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On 9/4/2021 at 7:15 PM, Harriytait said:

I've also had another go at fibreglassing "this time on a scrap board NOT the actual panel" and my technique is terrible so if anyone with fibreglass fabrication skills would like to step up and help move along MPU's rebuild I'd happily pay you for your efforts. I hate seeing her sitting there but I can't continue with much until that panel is sorted so any help would be greatly appreciated :)

Basically you have 3 options with this panel, none of them are quick, cheap, or easy.  I am not an expert but I have restored GRP cars (and I am not in Portsmouth btw!) so this is just my take on it. 

1.  Laminate over a male mould/former and smooth over with filler, as said earlier IIRC.  Cardboard is alright for a mould but has to be well shaped and supported, and you have to transfer the shape from the good panel on the other side, so that in itself is quite time consuming.

 2.  Find a less damaged panel from another car and laminate it in.  Even if it has bits missing, this is a lot better than starting from scratch.  Will still need lots of filling etc. to finish.  Probably the quickest and least difficult method if you can find one.

 3.  Take a mould off an undamaged car, make a new panel from that mould and laminate it in.  Best method, but not for the faint hearted or beginner. 

Sadly I think you will struggle to find anyone to do it.   I believe @Bfg is the expert on here.   He is probably wisely keeping quiet! 

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3 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

Sadly I think you will struggle to find anyone to do it.   I believe @Bfg is the expert on here.   He is probably wisely keeping quiet! 

Me.. nah not keeping quiet .. I just didn't know about the struggle until getting 'a notification' that my name had been mentioned.   If Harriytait wants to post some pictures of how the panels to be joined were aligned, before cardboard and fibreglassing, then I'll gladly talk him (..and y'all if you like) the process of repair I'd use.

Bfg   

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34 minutes ago, Bfg said:

Me.. nah not keeping quiet .. I just didn't know about the struggle until getting 'a notification' that my name had been mentioned.   If Harriytait wants to post some pictures of how the panels to be joined were aligned, before cardboard and fibreglassing, then I'll gladly talk him (..and y'all if you like) the process of repair I'd use.

Bfg   

If you can spare the time, I think folks would find it very useful to know how much skill and patience is involved.  And nasty, expensive chemicals. 

Long shot, but with your contacts in the industry, would you have any idea where the moulds might have gone?

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just to fill in the gaps (hah)

this is the panel @Harriytait has

20210620_160402.jpg

which needs to find its way back into the car it came from

image.png

now the fibreglass people should know exactly whats what :)

16 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Long shot, but with your contacts in the industry, would you have any idea where the moulds might have gone?

Oooh that would be amazing, especially the Model 70 moulds! (as there are more otherwise intact but body-less Model 70's out there then there are bodies sadly)

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1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

Worse than I thought...!  TBH I would look for another rear body section. 

I have been searching for a replacement panel but unfortunately they aren't common at all, the original is definitely repairable in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, unfortunately I'm not that person.

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2 minutes ago, Harriytait said:

I have been searching for a replacement panel but unfortunately they aren't common at all, the original is definitely repairable in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, unfortunately I'm not that person.

Have you got all the broken bits?

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9 hours ago, Harriytait said:

Here's my current progress with the repairs. As you can see the attempt ended up too thin and weak to work properly.

Hat doffed to you for even trying.  it's not the best fun in the world. @LightBulbFunWhat happened to the Pembrokeshire car, was it even a Mk12?    It's not desperately far away, I am due a visit, and I might* have a van and a hacksaw.

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12 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Hat doffed to you for even trying.  it's not the best fun in the world. @LightBulbFunWhat happened to the Pembrokeshire car, was it even a Mk12?    It's not desperately far away, I am due a visit, and I might* have a van and a hacksaw.

I sadly dont know what happened to it, it may still be there for all I know, its not a Mk12 however, its either a Model 67 or Model 70, im not sure which as all I can see is the roof! its still very much worth excavating if you can, and if you are visiting then ill see if I can finally get the lady who found it to divulge exactly where it is :) as this is one thats been bugging me for a few years now!

image.png

 

but there is also this Mk12E MVX977J 

image.png

which looks to have an intact rear end :) its another where I do know who found it and have spoken to them but I still need to see if I can get them to tell me where they found it (but at least on this one I was able to get a chassis plate picture from them which is how I was able to ID it :) )

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Good morrow neighbours. 

Looking at the pictures supplied ..thanks,  I'd say its "beyond economic repair"  ..so why not do it !  ;)

There's a whole lot of work but, if you have the will - then you can do it.  Remember that those who work in production fibreglass tend not to be of the most intellectual trait, nor even of a sporting or artistic temperament - but they can do it ..and so too you can learn those trade skills.  It is an honourable trade and a good fibreglasser is a craftsman with exceptional skills - so it is worth learning to do well.   

Firstly though I must point out that grp is used for making single skin panels., and then panels are joined together ..So for example ; the inner wheel-arch needs to be thought of as a separate panel to the outer wing and so (if you wish to do a good job) it'll have to be 'reconstructed' it as a separated piece which can then be adhered back into place. 

- - -

The way I'd approach this job. . .  is to reconstruct the whole back end of the car as if I were going to take a mould off it.  ie., what you have is part of the male pattern which gives you a great start, and now you've just got to fill in the gaps.  but not  (you'll be glad to hear) at this stage using fibreglass. 

I'd start by removing the lamps and reassembling the rhs wing correctly and square onto the body, from whence it came ..bearing in mind the thickness of the cutting disc or blade - so there will be a gap between the two parts.  An even spacing around the opening lid will best give you this location.  Battens of wood, spanning across the outside of that cut line, can literally be screwed in place to hold it secure and solid. 

NB. Fibreglass doesn't like being screwed into, because the metal barbs crack the inflexible glass strands and then delaminates the laminated layers ..so it is better to drill holes through the fibreglass panel and to then screw from the inside, through those holes - into the wooden battens. Use a flat timber block behind the panel as you drill the holes to prevent it further cracking the fibreglass as the drill breaks through.  Then use penny-washers under the screw heads to prevent localised distress and cracking. Just pinch those up tight enough to hold things in place. This is just a temporary assembly not a structural repair.  Those small (..if neat) holes will be easy to fill in afterwards.

The left hand side likewise needs to be positioned and held securely in correct and square place.  There looks to be no chassis support for this, and so you'll have to screw timber beams from under the car's floor to the back corner. Again an even gap around the lid opening will give you the location of what remains of the LHS wing.   

NB. in boat building we build a 'hard-back' that's laid along the floor and is leveled up (..sort of like a steel fabricator's level bed). The buck is built on top of this. That may be helpful but of course once set level and built upon it cannot be moved.  And that may not be the best option of you're working in your garden. Beams screwed / bolted to the underside of the car or whatever chassis is under there may be more practical to live with.

Once the existing pieces are in very accurate position, I'd close the inside area of that wing with plywood. Possibly 6mm thk ply ..attached to what remains of the inner wheel-arch, or otherwise the timber beams, or any other timber block(s) you might add. 

Line this with plastic sheet and tape over the corners to close that dam off.  This will have to be removed from the inside of the panel later, so consider that when making it..  For example, avoid screw heads within the void. 

It looks as if the top-half of this side of your car's B-post / door shut is missing, so you'll have to temporarily shape and fit plywood in its place.  I'd then span the outside wing shape with plastic sheet (masking taped in place all around) and timber battens over this to best emulate the finished shape (..drawing below).  NB. The more effort you put into getting this shape right.. the less work you'll have later on.  In the cavity created, I'd use spray urethane foam  (builder use it to fill in around pipes through brickwork) to fill it. This semi-rigid foam then is a solid foundation to recreating the missing sections of the rear-wing panel.

P1390496.thumb.jpg.c5d2b5c1c39a8be88818b13210c8b683.jpg

Once set and the outside timber battens and plastic sheet are removed, this foam can easily be better shaped by hand. Coarse sandpaper on a long-block is good n quick for this task, but please  do wear a face mask   ..as its dust is no good for your lungs, and is also pretty uncomfortably gritty in your eyes and down your collar too. :angry:       

You're trying to reproduce the original and correct shape of the whole LHS rear wing, and that is really difficult to do by eye - so the surest way is to mark your RHS wing with a grid of measured vertical and horizontal lines (pencil or masking tape), which along with a profile gauge, or cutting card profile templates to those grid lines, can be used to mirror the shape.  Shaping the foam is a pretty crude affair, and so what's next needed is a filler.  However I would recommend Plaster of Paris  rather than bondo (polyester filler) because it's easy and safe to use, and it's much easier to get rid of later  (..a jet wash &/or wire brush soon gets rid of any).

Once that foam with plaster filler is shaped then it can be sealed and you will have successfully have created a male pattern, onto which fibreglass can be laminated (..it's easier working over the outside). And that new shell once trimmed and set-in-flush ought to be pretty accurate to the car's final shape. 

Any questions, just ask..  but I will explain fibreglass laminating in another post, and I'll also explain how to fix the new / shaped repair panel to the existing / original body panels

Hope that helps,

Pete

 

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1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

ah cool :) but thats a Reliant Regal im afraid!

 

True, but it's earlier than mine which is a MKVI.  From the narrow front and separate bumper I'd say it was a MKIII or MKIV.  People used to add a front bumper to MKIVs which were generally sold bumper less..  The MKV (shallow front screen, separate front side and indicator lights below headlights and a roof gutter  only over the front doors) and the MKVI (deeper front screen, single indicator lights below the headlights, roof gutter over doors and rear side windows plus a pronounced roof lip over the rear screen) both share the wider front.  Also, whereas the MKIII and IV could have a front bumper fitted on brackets, the V and VI had a bumper shaped body moulding on to which metal bumpers fitted snuggly and directly.  In either case, the front bumper was of cosmetic value only.  There is no metalwork immediately behind the front panel. The whole front moulding is held on by the wooden A posts and the chassis cross rail which bridges across the upturned front chassis rails just in front of the bonnet hatch and above engine height.  MKII and IV Regals were never a common sight back in their era but a chap at college had a MKIII which regularly carried 3 burly rugby players plus driver, also a rugby player, to local sports fields.  

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43 minutes ago, RayMK said:

True, but it's earlier than mine which is a MKVI.  From the narrow front and separate bumper I'd say it was a MKIII or MKIV.  People used to add a front bumper to MKIVs which were generally sold bumper less..  The MKV (shallow front screen, separate front side and indicator lights below headlights and a roof gutter  only over the front doors) and the MKVI (deeper front screen, single indicator lights below the headlights, roof gutter over doors and rear side windows plus a pronounced roof lip over the rear screen) both share the wider front.  Also, whereas the MKIII and IV could have a front bumper fitted on brackets, the V and VI had a bumper shaped body moulding on to which metal bumpers fitted snuggly and directly.  In either case, the front bumper was of cosmetic value only.  There is no metalwork immediately behind the front panel. The whole front moulding is held on by the wooden A posts and the chassis cross rail which bridges across the upturned front chassis rails just in front of the bonnet hatch and above engine height.  MKII and IV Regals were never a common sight back in their era but a chap at college had a MKIII which regularly carried 3 burly rugby players plus driver, also a rugby player, to local sports fields.  

Reg looks like BFF519. Looks like just the driver had a wiper arm.

097646DF-27F2-4185-86E0-BAD550C3A0E6.png

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10 minutes ago, richardmorris said:

Reg looks like BFF519. Looks like just the driver had a wiper arm.

097646DF-27F2-4185-86E0-BAD550C3A0E6.png

BFFxxx is Merionethshire issue of February 1957 :) (with CFFxxx being issued in August 1958, so it was probably registered right between those 2 dates!)

slightly notable in that Merionethshire was one of those counties that did not see many car registrations and only got up to HFF916 before switching to AFF-B suffix marks

so the DVLA then used all later xFFxxx marks as age related marks for a while

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3 minutes ago, richardmorris said:

Reg looks like BFF519. Looks like just the driver had a wiper arm.

 

MKIII and IV only had a wiper on the driver's side, probably because Reliant always struggled to keep the vehicle weight within the limits for tricycle taxation and driving licence requirements.  Two wipers followed on the MKV and VI, so they must have chiselled away at material thicknesses or thinned down the rubberised horsehair rear seat cushioning.* 

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4 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

I've meant to share this picture for a while now, it's Brians chain gaurd. Interestingly it seems to be in the Peacock blue from the early mark 12 machines, I guess a load were painted in the early days of the model and sat on the shelf awaiting their use. No other components sport this colour.

IMG_4524.JPG

ooh thats interesting! it looks to be marked E33, I wonder is that for Mk12E?

I wonder if it might actually Greeves Motorcycle blue it looks quite similar to that :) 

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5 hours ago, Harriytait said:

Has this pic been shared yet? Apologies if it has.

N_444091_01of01.jpg

indeed it has, its a still from a video I shared that @Datsuncog did a lovely breakdown on, back on page 44 :) still appreciate the heads up tho :) 

 

On 29/04/2019 at 02:39, LightBulbFun said:

For datsuncog?, some hot video action of UOI4719 on the road :)

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-year-of-the-disabled-1981-online

 

(sadly they dont show any other Model 70s)

 

On 29/04/2019 at 11:28, Datsuncog said:

 

Aw man, that's phenomenal - cheers for that!

 

I vaguely remember Counterpoint on UTV, and aside from the very pertinent debate about the suitability or otherwise of the 'trike' (as it's referred to throughout) as a means of transport for people with disabilities, that on-the-road footage is awesome.

 

As I think I posted earlier on from the Ulster Transport Museum information board, UOI4719 was owned by Mary Boyce who competed in national rallies in her Model 70 (seen here in the queue for the ferry at Belfast Harbour):

 

post-17915-0-07862700-1556532051_thumb.jpg

 

UOI might have had a fair few miles on it, if it was regularly driving down from Heysham to Silverstone!

 

The footage of UOI was filmed around the town of Newtownards in Co.Down, where I went to school - it's fantastic to see footage of High Street and Frances Street as they were in 1981.

 

post-17915-0-45080400-1556532443_thumb.png

 

post-17915-0-73435400-1556532463_thumb.png

 

post-17915-0-98929700-1556532501_thumb.png

 

The cars in the background were just street furniture then, but absolute gold now. That beige E70 Corolla would have been nearly new, and (as it's wearing a Co. Down plate) was most likely supplied by Rosepark Toyota, just a stone's throw away at the junction of the Portaferry Road.

 

think the residential area on the film is the maybe the Bowtown Estate, or possibly Ballybeen out towards Dundonald direction - but I can't be sure, as it was extensively remodelled in the 1990s, and all the older maisonettes flattened. It's definitely not the Scrabo Estate (older), or West Winds (built on reclaimed flood plain, and so very flat. And very wet, when it rains).

 

post-17915-0-93475400-1556532954_thumb.png

 

post-17915-0-48770900-1556532972_thumb.png

 

Again, Viva HCs, Mk3 Cortinas, B310 Datsun Sunnys and FE Victors... wow. I'm a bit young to remember these cars when they were common on local roads, so this is great to see.

 

Coincidentally, I was over in Ards on Saturday with MrsDC, ordering wallpaper and trying to look for some furniture.

 

'Thompson's The Bakers', on the corner of Conway Square and High St, is now a Caffe Nero.

 

post-17915-0-23261600-1556533303_thumb.png

 

The square's been fully pedestrianised for years now - I never remember traffic able to pass through it or park.

 

I also dragged MrsDC up and down several streets looking for a particular independent furniture store that used to sell interesting locally made pieces: "I'm sure it's around here - it's on a corner, beside an arcade."

 

post-17915-0-26175900-1556533437_thumb.png

 

Why, what's this, right at the end of the documentary?

 

post-17915-0-84310600-1556533472_thumb.png

 

It's the very shop. Now no longer there, it would seem, though clearly it was in the same spot for a very long time.

 

Cheers again!

 

PLUS: bonus Renault R15 action at the 18:00 minute mark... 3-stud wheels FTW. Phoarrr.

 

post-17915-0-94641600-1556533585_thumb.png

 

 

 

Incidentally, I've had no response via official email channels from the Ulster Transport Museum re. having a proper look at WOI - so if there's no further response to my reminder email, then my next move is to call on my contact...

 

 

 

but speaking of period shots, I came across this nice Mk12 one :) 

241991765_2863245367269716_4014791715058138170_n.jpeg.d4b12495b1ae5ff26e8422157cd55f23.jpeg

the lack of any other vehicles in the scene is interesting, its almost like some sort post apocalyptic scene where all non fibreglass cars have mysteriously vanished and hoards of pedestrians look on at @AdgeCutler with envious eyes as he cruises on by, getting ready to floor it if any should make a move :mrgreen:

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4 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

the lack of any other vehicles in the scene is interesting, its almost like some sort post apocalyptic scene where all non fibreglass cars have mysteriously vanished and hoards of pedestrians look on at @AdgeCutler with envious eyes as he cruises on by, getting ready to floor it if any should make a move :mrgreen:

A world where peak human engineering is the 1 cylinder Villiers. There's a thought. Still, with 45 mph capability can outrun any living creature....

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  • LightBulbFun changed the title to LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards :) practical driving test passed finally Woo! :D

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