The state of the market: cheap car buyers and sellers

[Kiltox]

It’s well documented throughout internet fora that buying and selling cheap cars can be a huge pain. Dodgy sellers wanting to meet you in supermarket car parks, gumtree £60 today m9 type buyers. Auctions are a no go zone for private buyers by and large (fees are crippling).

 

This PH SOTW caught my eye - a Panda 100HP at a dealer for £975. Cheap unless you’re winning one in an AS roffle. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1749125

 

What amazed me was the number of comments on the discussion pointing out things like “the paint is dodgy” “the dealer can’t say it’s a trade sale it’s against the law you have rights”. That’s on an enthusiasts forum who aparrently consider cars like that Panda to be a worthy steer. One for sale for less than £1000 which is well under the going rate for one that hasn’t been previously owned by cort16 . The very definition of “shed” in a PH’s eyes yet the warranty status/lack of seems to overrule.

 

When did it get like this - when the wannabe Martin Lewis consumer champions made it completely unreasonable for an actual bona fide trader to sell a part ex banger because you know they’ll be right back next week when a tyre needs inflating.

 

When the Gumtree idiots and lay-by/driveway heroes become pretty much the only way to buy a cheap car will these people re-adjust their expectations? Good luck quoting SOGA if you’ve bought from a pikey or council estate dweller, they’ll just kick fuck out of you.

 

Of course, if these places are the only ones to buy a cheap car they’ll quickly become the only people buying them too and the broken Xbox / kashtodaym8 cycle goes on.

 

When did we become so scared of a £1000 car potentially having some problems?

[stephen01]

I know my rights and if i dont the internet will help me. This attitude has fucked it up for a lot of people but also saved a lot of people from twatty traders. Double edge sword. 

 

This is why I like it here-  where the failings of a car are glorified as much as good points. 

 

You pay your money you take your chances, sometimes it's great sometimes it's not. Surely everyone has bought a lemon over the years?

[Kiltox]

I totally understand the need for consumer protection - there are people getting ripped off big time even with it.

 

Still, expectations are getting ridiculous - cars approaching end of life being sold for a fraction of their new value cannot be expected to be faultless etc.

[lesapandre]

The other pity here is that because selling "bangers" has become such a pain sellers and dealers will simply scrap viable cars because they don't want the hassle or waste the time. I bought a Citroen a few years ago off a lovely person - not expensive at £200 but they were at their wits end with the amount of messers that had popped up after it. 

[Bren]

Plenty expecting champagne cars for lemonade money - and its getting worse. Tey going into a traders portakabin and making an offer more akin to gumtree - if he does'nt set his dog on you his mechanics will no doubt encourage you to leave.

[lesapandre]

My experience is however cheap it is they want it cheaper.

[Talbot]

I see what you are saying but the Sale of Goods Act has helped me out in the past.

 

I bought a surprisingly tidy looking Mondeo TDCi a while back for the Enormous sum of £600. It was hopelessly boring but as a 2004 car I hoped would be reliable, economic, and all That jazz. After all 2004 is a nearly brand new car isn't it?

 

Unfortunately it had an undisclosed and quite serious fault whereby when you gave it beans up a hill or onto a dual carriageway it died and the only way to get moving again was to switch the ignition off and restart it. Not particularly safe and after a bit of Googling was indicative of the beginnings of a much more serious fault. The vendor was initially uninterested in my complaint, but very quickly changed his tune when I quoted the Sale of Goods Act at him.

 

The fact that the car had a fault was no surprise (after all it was 12 years old) but what was unacceptable was that it was totally undisclosed. You only had to drive the car up a dual carriageway to find the fault so I am absolutely sure that the vendor was perfectly well aware that the car was buggered and was just trying to pull a fast one. He even heavily discourage me from driving up the dual carriageway when I took it for a test drive, saying could I "just go round town and back again" as he needed to get home, which of course completely hit the fault.

 

It's all down to common sense surely.

[sierraman]

You pay your money you take your chances. If the £1000 Vectra you buy blows up 6 months later you have fuck all comeback. Like you say going in quoting this that and the other about your rights, you'll get told to fuck off.

 

If you go and buy a £500 car its up to you to satisfy yourself its OK, if you don't know then take someone who does. Its another example of people not accepting responsibility to check if something is OK for themselves at this level. Going back after the fact quoting legislation because it wants some tyres after 6 months won't get you anywhere.

[Bren]

If you want peace of mind no hassle motoring take out a pcp.

 

Anybody buying a £400 car then getting shitty because the exhaust is blowing needs smartening up....

[Parky]

Do people react like this with second hand furniture or appliances? I don’t think they do but correct me if I am wrong.

[Kiltox]

Do people react like this with second hand furniture or appliances? I don’t think they do but correct me if I am wrong.

.... or houses?

[Parky]

That’s true.

 

Although when I bought a previous new home, there was a guy who had bought a two bed flat who had decided that a two bed house would have been better and wanted to swap - he couldn’t understand that he would have to sell the flat and then buy the house, and the fact he had a five year fixed mortgage would have meant he would have early repayment fees, etc. He honestly just thought he could move his stuff into a house and pay an extra few quid a month for the privilege

[Datsuncog]

Do people react like this with second hand furniture or appliances? I don’t think they do but correct me if I am wrong.

 

You'd be amazed.

 

We sold on a lot of furniture and storage units a few years back.

 

Some people were lovely, others were chiselling fuckbags.

 

The cheaper the item, the more discount they wanted. Plenty of "30 2nite m8" texts for items advertised at £150.

 

Old but solid desks for a tenner, honestly described and with tons of photos, but suddenly the would-be punter was screeching and wailing about a hairline scratch that was invisible unless you looked at it from a very specific angle with your chin on the tabletop.

 

I can't remember all the ballachery now, but I think my favourite was the woman who came to pick up a seagrass drawer unit: £40 new, hardly used, we were asking a tenner for it.

 

She made a whole song and dance because it was much smaller than she'd thought it was.

 

I'd provided full dimensions of both the unit and the drawer interior size on the ad.

 

Eventually I let her have it for a fiver just to get her to fuck off away from my door.

 

Another chap rang me back after buying a filing cabinet, wanting his money back because new hanging files in that size were "a ridiculous price".

 

I fobbed off his offer to go back to his house and load the fucker up again, and just had to say that wasn't my fault.

 

 

It's not cars - it's people.

[Aston Martin]

Internet commenters are usually cunts.

[timolloyd]

This is the Mike Brewer effect. Everyone's suddenly an expert about fuck all.

 

Pistonheads probably isn't a very good sample of attitudes though. My guess would be their demographic is white, middle aged and fairly wealthy.

 

If no-one was buying cheap used cars anymore in the UK, because of mismatched paint and underinflated tyres, then there'd be piles of them by the side of the road.

 

I like to think there are thousands of would-be shiters out there, running bangers and thinking nothing of it. There the ones with common sense, but no particular interest in cars.

[Parky]

Internet commenters are usually cunts.

Aren’t we all placing comments on the internet?

 

Well you’ve got my number anyway

[SiC]

This PH SOTW caught my eye - a Panda 100HP at a dealer for £975. Cheap unless you’re winning one in an AS roffle. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1749125

 

What amazed me was the number of comments on the discussion pointing out things like “the paint is dodgy” “the dealer can’t say it’s a trade sale it’s against the law you have rights”.

Toaster Pilot ... ? Any reason why?

[bramz7]

I've never expected any compensation for cars I've bought which turned out to be shit. I bought a £250 Xantia and took it straight to the scrapyard as it was so badly described.

 

But then that well documented pillock with the Tempra expected the world on a plate for £100.

 

Working in retail (and high stakes retail you could argue, with phones), I notice that some people want everything free. And some people expect it.

[Kiltox]

Toaster Pilot ... ? Any reason why?

I had a white Kia Picanto a few years ago

[Talbot]

the exhaust is blowing

because it wants some tyres after 6 months

Both of those are never going to be covered under SOGA, so no issues there. the buyer will be told to go forth, and rightly so.

 

You pay your money you take your chances. If the £1000 Vectra you buy blows up 6 months later you have fuck all comeback.

Actually you do, and I think it's a good thing. It depends, of course, on what blows up. If it's a knackered clutch, worn out brakes, leaky dampers or some other service item, then that's up to the buyer, not covered under SOGA and tough shit.

 

But if theres a serious undisclosed fault that renders the car completely useless (Like the fucked high-pressure diesel pump in my Mundaneo above) then I think the legislation is a good thing. People *should* be able to trust a used car sales place, and I don't think it's unreasonable for every vehicle to essentially have a very basic warranty covering utter catastrophic failure of the car. It is only for 183 days after all...

 

 

Case in point: an Ex-colleague of mine bought a VW Toerag a while back. Nice enough car, drove ok despite being the smaller diesel version, and was apparently a perfectly OK car. He knew *exactly* what he was buying and what he was looking at as he was a time-served VW mechanic.

4 months into ownership it shit it's torque converter out of it's arse and tore the gearbox to shreds. On *extremely* close inspection there were witness marks on the converter-to-flexplate mounting bolts, so clearly someone had been in there before and cocked up, most likely just prior to sale.

 

He got his money back, and rightly so.

[Dave_Q]

I've just changed cars, the old one is going to scrap via removemycar for £230.

 

Could have maybe got slightly more by braving the public but no thanks, its worth taking a bit less rather than have some loser win it on ebay for 300 then turn up and offer me £12 because of all the declared faults.

[vaughant]

I've picked a few cars up from dealers and they always state on the receipt that they're sold as scrap even if they've got a 12 month ticket.

 

As for the Mondeo story above why would you buy it if the guy was cagey about taking it on a dual carriageway? Fair play for standing your ground and getting a refund but frankly I don't buy anything now unless I get a decent drive out of it, too easy to get caught in this day and age. This even relates to me waking away from a brand new Merc Citian because the salesman was adamant I couldn't take it up the A419, my guess because it would have turned out to be a rattly piece of shit and he knew it but as I wanted it mainly for motorway work, pootling around at 40mph told me nothing.

[vaughant]

Both of those are never going to be covered under SOGA, so no issues there. the buyer will be told to go forth, and rightly so.

 

 

Actually you do, and I think it's a good thing. It depends, of course, on what blows up. If it's a knackered clutch, worn out brakes, leaky dampers or some other service item, then that's up to the buyer, not covered under SOGA and tough shit.

 

But if theres a serious undisclosed fault that renders the car completely useless (Like the fucked high-pressure diesel pump in my Mundaneo above) then I think the legislation is a good thing. People *should* be able to trust a used car sales place, and I don't think it's unreasonable for every vehicle to essentially have a very basic warranty covering utter catastrophic failure of the car. It is only for 183 days after all...

 

 

Case in point: an Ex-colleague of mine bought a VW Toerag a while back. Nice enough car, drove ok despite being the smaller diesel version, and was apparently a perfectly OK car. He knew *exactly* what he was buying and what he was looking at as he was a time-served VW mechanic.

4 months into ownership it shit it's torque converter out of it's arse and tore the gearbox to shreds. On *extremely* close inspection there were witness marks on the converter-to-flexplate mounting bolts, so clearly someone had been in there before and cocked up, most likely just prior to sale.

 

He got his money back, and rightly so.

For the toerag yes as it's a reasonably expensive purchase but a £600 mongdog from a trader? I think you got lucky, I'm glad you did as I hate seeing people ripped off but those pumps are well known for failing and the cars in general for throwing up limp mode errors. Certainly not top of any second hand car list of mine.

[BavarianRetro]

Keep in mind that buying any car from any trader now let's you return it for your money back within, I think, three months.

 

There are tales of £1000 cars bought, taken for a tour of France and returned because of an undisclosed fault.

 

Why any trader would sell "trade ins" or "bangers" now, I don't know.

[wuvvum]

This is why I never put my phone number in when I'm selling on Gumtree.  Email only - that makes it a lot easier to weed out the fuckwits.  Including those who can't speak a word of English and those who get stroppy when I don't answer an email within 30 seconds during office hours.

 

Of course I'd rather avoid Gumtree altogether, but the only real alternative for my cheap crap is on here, and this is a rather limited market.

[Junkman]

When did it get like this

 

1987.

[cort16]

Traders can sell cars with declared faults and not have come back . If they sell something with a knackered clutch and state this there’s no come back on the clutch but if the engine blows up they still need to cover it.

 

Some dealers just write brutally honest adverts for their px cars and won’t sell to anyone the sense is a bit of a fud. They do it for the money , scrapping or selling to trade could lose them a couple of hundred per car , which is a lot of money if you sell 10 cars a month.

 

I read some car dealer forums having a vague work association with them and my god they have to put up with some shite.

[Guest]

I'm actively looking to buy a sub grand 4x4, for knocking around site in and carrying dog/tools. When the **** did an MOT failure become £600, £800, £1000? Then they happily post up a pic of the fail sheet, which, having been in the trade for a long time, and some simple non man maths makes it £800 dearer than the FSH, one owner minter with a years MOT listed below it, and thats supplying the labour Edd China fashion. Are there more 2wd Freelanders out there now than 4wd's? Is there a 3 litre Trooper in the land that doesnt have a sump full of Diesel, or a Navara that actually starts? I need a ratty 4WD, which is 4Wd, with some MOT, don't care if its scraped, needs tyres, or is scruffy. But because "Great for Xport M8" then everyones non running Shogun with a Emmental Chassis is suddenly a very desireable motor.

 

Recently went to look at a V70 Diesel, listed as spares or repairs. Fair enough as it was £300. Drove over to look at it and the guy then tells me its a non runner. Drove it to where it sat then never started again. I said can I spend 10 mins checking things out to see if it was a bad connection or a seized engine, I'd take it if it would run.... Guy went ape, told me I wasn't touching his car, give me £300 and put it on a trailer and go away. Waste of a day off and £20 of fuel, but why would I buy a motor that possibly needed a new engine for £300, when I could buy a good MOT'd runner for 7.

[clayts450]

People seem to forget the one basic rule of buying anything - caveat emptor (buyer beware).

 

For sure there are some unscrupulous sellers out there, but the buck stops with you as soon as you hand over the wonga, unless it's something so remotely hidden you'd never spot it. Which is where SOGA is useful.

 

For me, when you buy an old shed, you need to be realistic. When I bought the V6 the seller fessed up that the back seats were missing and he hadn't had the balls to tell me until I turned up. My instant reaction ? Mate, it's a £250 car. He was genuinely gobsmacked, thought I'd be miffed, turn around, get on the train and go back home. He'd obviously had his fill of idiots making lowball offers and did not expect a buyer to have such low expectations ! I didn't haggle at all - the price was low, the vehicle was good.

 

When I bought the Streetwise, I knew the bloke was bullshitting me about a few things, but gut feeling - underneath a few minor faults there was a good car yearning to be let out. Haggled with him and won.

 

But for me, this is the best place - honest descriptions of cars, warts and all. And meeting people. I see us as a recycling centre for the great unloved, and the side benefit of this is that there is no Gumtree bullshit, and both parties are happy. And roffles are just plain good old fun - the winner's reaction is often priceless (Kiltox's multitude 'fuck' reaction to the Panpan had me crying with laughter)

[Talbot]

As for the Mondeo story above why would you buy it if the guy was cagey about taking it on a dual carriageway?

Because it was about 4.50 in the afternoon, and I needed a car to get me in to work in the morning. I (stupidly) believed him. I also didn't know of the specific issues with this engine as I was looking at buying *anything* that would get me mobile again..

 

I should also say that the car was cheap as it had a rattly DMF. He told me there was no comeback on that, and that was fine. I pressed him about any other significant issues (IE shit that matters, not poxy rubbish) and he stated everything else was fine. Which it wasn't

 

 

There are several caveats on the SOGA. I had done no more than about 50 miles in the car in total when I rejected it, and it went back to him with barely any more on it. The SOGA states you have to be reasonable about all aspects of the rejection, so anything utterly unreasonable will not be upheld by a court.