'Inbetweener' Cars / Imminant future shite/classics

[SiC]

Has anyone seen the prices of the Focus mk1 RS?

 

Ludicrous already. They were good car, but what they are going for now is more than a Focus MK3 ST-3 which is a much better car. More powerful, nicer interior and better handling.

 

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201712192164214?atmobcid=soc3

 

To most people they look like every other "banger" Focus mk1 on the road.

[Picketlinefeelingfine]

Just get an ST170 like mine then get fake rs alloys and a spoiler and you will rule council estate

[Captain Furious]

The magic of the RS badge.  Because rightly or wrongly it carries a certain prestige that the ST badge does not, and 'purists' will pay huge premiums for it.

 

Just becoming old and rare through wastage doesn't necessarily make cars worth money - filling a garage full of Renault Lagunas, Vauxhall Zafiras and Fiat Multiplas probably isn't a sound retirement plan.

[Datsuncog]

filling a garage full of Renault Lagunas, Vauxhall Zafiras and Fiat Multiplas probably isn't a sound retirement plan.

 

   

 

Well, that's my old age fucked, then...

[sierraman]

People buy based on happy memories. First car or first car you've had when you had when you met the wife or whatever. That's why nobody's going to be lamenting that theres only 43 Zafira 1.6 Life's on the road in 20 years time. You aren't going to want to relive those times you were forced due to circumstances to be reduced to driving the motoring equivalent of a Night Nurse chaser.

[SiC]

People buy based on happy memories. First car or first car you've had when you had when you met the wife or whatever. That's why nobody's going to be lamenting that theres only 43 Zafira 1.6 Life's on the road in 20 years time. You aren't going to want to relive those times you were forced due to circumstances to be reduced to driving the motoring equivalent of a Night Nurse chaser.

But then there will be plenty of kids who will grow up having happy memories (well if they remember the good bits) travelling in mum/dad Zafira when they go on holiday.

[Datsuncog]

***Rrrring-rrrrring**

 

"Hi, is that the Pensions Ombudsman? Yeah, I want to report the Autoshite Financial Advice Service... Sure, I'll hold.

 

"Yeah, hi. Look, some blokes on the internet seemed to imply that there was money to be made in buying up worthless old chod categorised as 'inbetweener' cars. I mean, of course I was sceptical at first, but then I noticed how any old lumps of corroded metal dragged out of a pond and claimed to be a Mk1 Ford Escort were now inexplicably worth more than my house, so I thought, yeah, fair enough, sounds legit.

 

"So I cashed in the pension pot, re-mortgaged the house and took out two dozen payday loans before hitting up Cannock like a coked-up sailor with a two-week terminal diagnosis on shore leave, and now I have nearly eight hundred stinking, rattly Vauxhalls, Renaults and Fiats clogging up every residential street and arterial route within a two mile radius.

 

"But today I find out that these may not be the cast-iron, 110% guaranteed, money-in-the-bank Grade AAA investments I was led to believe. That, and the council, the neighbours and the rather large chaps representing the Golden Friendly Mutual Assurance Loan & Tarmac Associates Ltd, have been calling round for some informal chats at unusual hours.

 

"I mean, I feel conned, I feel sick - I don't know where to turn. I feel I've been badly mis-sold this financial advice, I'm at my wits' end...

 

"What's that? Yes, I do happen to have a Volvo estate in there.

 

"Yes, I can certainly deliver to Scotland.

 

"Sorry, what did you say your name was, again...?"

[SiC]

I always reckon a safe alternative additional pension would be to buy up cheap ECU sets. Especially for the premium marques. The sets I'm talking about are the ones with a ECU, body computer, keys and anything else that require the engine to run. Seal them up in a vacuum packed bag with some silica gel packs and stuff them in the loft.

 

In the future when they go pop, it will be the only way to keep it original without aftermarket ECUs. But by then, any barn find units will be corroded and busted up. Also a couple of black boxes are small and easy to store.

[sierraman]

That's a really good point. I've already got a loft full of Focus bits, that's my pension sorted then!

[Hendry]

While a lot of young people have PCP'd new cars these days, there are still some who drive older stuff, either because they cant afford PCP or because they are actually interested in cars, then theres all the ones who modify cars still, marque specific forums are evidence of this, that not everyone has gone from driving old cars or bangers as their 1st/2nd/3rd car until they can afford something new-ish, and these are the sorts who I think will push the prices up on older cars when they want to relive their youth or have a 2nd car for tinkering at the weekend or a Sunday drive when they are in their 30s/40s. 

 

I think stuff like the mk2 Focus ST, mk5 Golf GTi etc will fall into that category, yes they are still kinda new-ish and still not exactly cheap but they are nearly at the bottom of their values and will be worth fortunes like mk1 Golf GTIs, mk3 Escort XR3s and RS Turbos etc. are. Maybe stuff like Corsa D VXRs for people who had 1.0 Life Corsa Ds and always wanted a VXR but could never afford one when they were current. 

 

I cant though ever see a 1.8 petrol mk3 Mondeo LX or an Insignia 1.8 Exclusiv ever being classics in the way a mk1 Sierra or a mk2 Cavalier are becoming. 

[John F]

The Mk 1 Sierra and Mk 2 Cavalier are really only 'classics' because any remaining ones are survivors, and I suppose they weren't particularly bad cars back in their day. Especially the Cav.

 

The same will probably apply to the Mundano or Insignia in 30-ish years, if there's any fuel left.

[Datsuncog]

I cant though ever see a 1.8 petrol mk3 Mondeo LX or an Insignia 1.8 Exclusiv ever being classics in the way a mk1 Sierra or a mk2 Cavalier are becoming. 

 

I can't see it either, but then my dad still can't conceive of a standard Sierra hatch being anywhere near a classic. Yet here we are - I couldn't even afford one seven years ago when I was actively looking, let alone now.

 

I reckon it's a generational thing - a feeling with some people that they just missed something good that happened while they were too young to appreciate it. I loved my '73 Viva, but Datsuncog Snr was bemused by this, and still paints the 1950s cars of his youth when he has the watercolours out. For him, a 'classic' is a Mk2 Zephyr, an E-Type, a Mk2 Jag - not really a Datsun 180B. But curvy Jags and finned Fords and whitewall tyres don't really do it for me much.

 

I can remember reading through the letters page in an old car magazine a few years back where a contributor was getting very het up about what constitutes a 'classic car', opining that only those with racing heritage and pedigree would ever be sought after by future collectors, concluding with "today's miserable little Fords and Hillmans will never inspire affection in future generations, and are only good for the dustbin."

 

This particular magazine was published in 1956.

 

I'm just having to accept that, one day, the babe-in-arms next door may grow up to be all misty-eyed upon seeing a 'classic' Hyundai Tucson TL - "cor, that takes me back... my dad used to run one of those."

 

But we are quite a small and enthusiastic group of bods on here, and I don't for a moment think that we're representative of the general motoring public. True, an awful lot of people do have their cars on monthly PCP deals, but then twenty years ago a lot of people had their mass-market boxes on 0% finance deals, and ten years before that a lot of people drove a company car, and twenty years before that HP was common so... 90% of folk don't give their car another thought when they hand the keys back at the end of the lease/finance/HP period. They never did. It's largely another household appliance.

 

I work with people who can't even give the make and model of their car when filling in their car park pass form. "Oh, I think it's a... oh, it's white... there's a dealer on Boucher Rd... I think it's a Daewoo or something? Dacia! Yes, a Dacia something."

 

So it's only those rare survivors that fall through the cracks and eventually trickle their way down to weirdo enthusiasts like us... I mean, I think it's fantastic that there are a number of Suzuki Swift fans on here - but think what a terrifyingly small proportion of car owners this represents. I rather like S1 Lagunas, but I'd be very surprised to find there's more than 100 people in the entire country who give more than two toots about them.

 

As mentioned above, thirty years ago cars were dead from rust by their tenth birthday - often before. Now, black boxes go pop and finish them off at about the same age. But some survive. They always have, always will - somehow. And some freak (like me) will inexplicably gather them to their bosom and spend silly amounts of money keeping them going, for reasons that utterly defy logic. Because we're not numbers. We're free chaps and chapettes.

 

Just my tuppence worth.

[danthecapriman]

The Mk 1 Sierra and Mk 2 Cavalier are really only 'classics' because any remaining ones are survivors, and I suppose they weren't particularly bad cars back in their day. Especially the Cav.

 

The same will probably apply to the Mundano or Insignia in 30-ish years, if there's any fuel left.

This.

Sierra's and Cavs were good enough cars for their day and loads of them led lives racking up miles as reps and commuting cars. Most did that then got weighed in when they were fucked.

The sports models always get to classic-dom first and the normal ones always follow so there's no reason a mk3 Mondeo LX or Insignia won't eventually be classics, it'll just take a while!

 

I think much of this 'classic' thing comes from cars not aging like they they used to.

For example a 1973 Cortina looks like a 70's car, it's got coke bottle styling, chrome bumpers, angles etc etc. Park that Cortina next to a 1983 Sierra and the Cortina looks like an antique by comparison to the Sierra's plastic bumpers and curves despite the mechanicals being generally similar. And that's just within 10 years.

Now park a 2008 Mondeo next to a 2018 Mondeo and there's much much less of a difference. Ok, you can tell which one is the older car but there's very little between them really.

 

That to me is why cars seem to take longer to become noticed or classics.

70's stuff seems to be back in vogue at the moment and that fits with the prices of 70's Fords (for example). You want a bit of retro appeal, something that looks very much of its time and a 70's Cortina or Capri fits that perfectly. You can take one glance at those cars and they scream '1970's'.

The Sierra, again. They look like a product of the 1980's and again, that's also popular now.

The same isn't true with the Mondeos examples. Not yet anyway, as cars just don't age like they used to. My dads 2010 Mondeo still looks modern and new in a car park now despite being 8 years old now and looks comparable to the current Mondeo.

If you look at my Capri, I bet whichever poverty stricken citizen bought it new never would have thought it'd ever make it to 40+ years old and, even being a lowly 1.6L would ever be thought of as a desirable classic car. Yet it has, so everything will get there eventually, even a mk3 Mondeo 1.8LX will eventually. It's just going to take a while.

 

Saying all that, it won't be me lusting after Insignias and mk3 Mondys as cars of that era bore me to tears!! I'm sure someone will though.

[Captain Furious]

All valid points, especially about cars of that area having more appeal and looking more like an object of desire than a kitchen appliance. But I still think attitudes to cars are different now, in both kids and adults. 

 

Now, viewer discretion advised...the following is purely anecdotal and based on casual observation of people within my sphere of existence.  Other experiences are available.

 

When I was a kid, cars were kind of a big deal.  To both me and my friends, but also my dad and his friends.  We'd be arguing on the school bus whose dads car was fastest, he, and other dads in the area, would be out polishing and titivating their pride and joy on a Sunday afternoon with a healthy amount of rivalry and admiration for one another's machines.  They'd help each other out when they had problems, lend each other tools, Haynes manuals, ramps, compare reviews on cleaning products, polishes, oils, motoring shops etc etc.  You know, sort of like an online community, except in real life.  None of them worked in the motor trade, it was a hobby, they saw cars as a reflection of themselves, they would keep the same one for years and years and years and take pride in keeping it the very best it could be, admiration would be conveyed in the form of compliments from other dads in petrol stations, rather than likes on an internet site.  For my part, whenever anything was going on with cars, either my dad fixing or servicing his or going to his friends' to help them with theirs, I would be all over that!  I wanted to be involved in all of it right from when I was old enough to walk and talk.

 

Now, maybe because it happens online rather than in real life, maybe because cars don't need such frequent maintenance and servicing, maybe because they're more complex and require garage servicing and specialist diagnostic tools or maybe because they're all on PCP, I honestly don't know, but I don't see that level of enthusiasm today either from the parents or the kids.  Not a single person in my office is really a 'car guy' (or gal) I mean some of them like to have a nice one, but they have no idea how they work, they don't service them or work on them themselves, and this is an office full of supposedly technical people.  Cars are treated more like disposable white goods, when it needs attention it goes to the garage and that's that.  After 3 years get another new one, hell sometimes its the even the same friggin make and model, it just has a new warranty.  As for kids, possibly as a result of this, they don't seem that interested either.  My Nephew could not give less of a shit about anything to do with cars, my mates kids are the same, as are his friends.  I took a friend of mine to look at a new car a few months back, he brought his lad along who was about 11 at the time and he did nothing but moan all day that he was bored.  That would have been my dream day out.  They'd rather watch some youtube 'vlogger' talking shit about computer games or whatever it is they follow.

[dozeydustman]

Peugeot 309 launch brochure 1986 10-11 GE.jpg

 

Mmm, basic.  I had a 1.3 309 years ago and it wasn't exactly quick, so I can't imagine a 1.1 being much fun.

 

 

The 1.1 wasn't that bad for a small engine in a comparatively large car, on a par with an Escort 1.1 of a similar age in Popular Plus spec. The 309 wasn't designed to be a road burner from the outset - 80's old fart motoring to get to the post office every Tuesday to collect the pension & buy a year's supply of cat food on the way home before putting the cabbage on for Sunday's roast.

[Matt]

North American Corsas?  Do you mean South American?

 

Laseraligningfoofooflanges was referring to the photo of my Swift. In North America they were sold as the Suzuki Swift between 1989 and 1994/5 and as the Geo Metro between 1994/5 and 2001.

 

But then there will be plenty of kids who will grow up having happy memories (well if they remember the good bits) travelling in mum/dad Zafira when they go on holiday.

 

Possibly. We did the same in my parents' Scenic when it was new but I can't say that I'll ever feel the need to own one. My dad really wanted a 4x4 version but mother as having none of it, bet those are future shite. That said we had a Xsara and I remember being a bit upset about getting rid of it as I really liked it for whatever reason, more so than the three MK6 Escorts they had before. I have looked at them for sale a couple of times too...

[andy18s]

Has anyone seen the prices of the Focus mk1 RS?

 

Ludicrous already. They were good car, but what they are going for now is more than a Focus MK3 ST-3 which is a much better car. More powerful, nicer interior and better handling.

 

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201712192164214?atmobcid=soc3

 

To most people they look like every other "banger" Focus mk1 on the road.

A lot of these are getting by owners looking to buy the complete set...

[Hendry]

All valid points, especially about cars of that area having more appeal and looking more like an object of desire than a kitchen appliance. But I still think attitudes to cars are different now, in both kids and adults. 

 

Now, viewer discretion advised...the following is purely anecdotal and based on casual observation of people within my sphere of existence.  Other experiences are available.

 

When I was a kid, cars were kind of a big deal.  To both me and my friends, but also my dad and his friends.  We'd be arguing on the school bus whose dads car was fastest, he, and other dads in the area, would be out polishing and titivating their pride and joy on a Sunday afternoon with a healthy amount of rivalry and admiration for one another's machines.  They'd help each other out when they had problems, lend each other tools, Haynes manuals, ramps, compare reviews on cleaning products, polishes, oils, motoring shops etc etc.  You know, sort of like an online community, except in real life.  None of them worked in the motor trade, it was a hobby, they saw cars as a reflection of themselves, they would keep the same one for years and years and years and take pride in keeping it the very best it could be, admiration would be conveyed in the form of compliments from other dads in petrol stations, rather than likes on an internet site.  For my part, whenever anything was going on with cars, either my dad fixing or servicing his or going to his friends' to help them with theirs, I would be all over that!  I wanted to be involved in all of it right from when I was old enough to walk and talk.

 

Now, maybe because it happens online rather than in real life, maybe because cars don't need such frequent maintenance and servicing, maybe because they're more complex and require garage servicing and specialist diagnostic tools or maybe because they're all on PCP, I honestly don't know, but I don't see that level of enthusiasm today either from the parents or the kids.  Not a single person in my office is really a 'car guy' (or gal) I mean some of them like to have a nice one, but they have no idea how they work, they don't service them or work on them themselves, and this is an office full of supposedly technical people.  Cars are treated more like disposable white goods, when it needs attention it goes to the garage and that's that.  After 3 years get another new one, hell sometimes its the even the same friggin make and model, it just has a new warranty.  As for kids, possibly as a result of this, they don't seem that interested either.  My Nephew could not give less of a shit about anything to do with cars, my mates kids are the same, as are his friends.  I took a friend of mine to look at a new car a few months back, he brought his lad along who was about 11 at the time and he did nothing but moan all day that he was bored.  That would have been my dream day out.  They'd rather watch some youtube 'vlogger' talking shit about computer games or whatever it is they follow.

 

I kinda agree, I remember a 7 year old me all excited because my dad came home one day in a 3 and a half year old 1991 H reg Ford Orion, being amazed by the dolby digital cassette player in it, the torch key, how the central locking worked, that it had a sunroof. I cant see any 7 year old boys being excited because their father comes home one day in a 15 plate Focus 1.6 Zetec, however I dont really remember many other kids being into cars the way I was either, knowing the reg's of all my friends' parents cars, which dealer they had came from, etc. A couple of them were into cars a bit but thats about it. 

 

There were cars I wanted when I was younger and had to settle for less, for example buying an 04 Clio 1.2 Dynamique and wishing it was a Renaultsport 182, or buying an 05 Astra H 1.8 Design and wishing it was the VXR, but I could go out and find those cheaply enough now, easily afford them but I wouldnt because I dont see them as 'special' anymore.

 

I think most people, whether into cars or not, will have a car that holds a special place in their heart due to parents/grandparents/aunts/uncles having one when they were kids, or has happy memories, the difference is most wont go out and buy one of those cars to relive that. 

[vulgalour]

This belief that children not getting excited about going to the showroom means they're not interested in cars at all is silly.  Now, you can get your fill of excitement online through social media, Youtube, magazines, forums, image sharing sites... the list goes on.  You don't NEED to go to the showroom to see and interact with new cars and indeed the showroom is now the place where basically the ultra boring buying stuff happens.

 

Likewise the maintenance, etc.  Most car simply don't need the same level of attention and frustration and so you just don't see it happening.  Many of those that were tinkering on the driveway in all weathers are now  fixing smaller problem items on their workbench indoors before swearing at brittle, sharp-edged trim to get the item reinstalled.

 

Don't dismiss youngsters so readily and certainly don't mock them for a lack of knowledge.  Help, support and encourage them in the hobby should they show an interest.  You'll be amazed at what some of them can do and what some of them can fix once they've had a decent tutor to help them along.

[Cleon-Fonte]

Get yours before the white room sellers do.

 

 

 

 

[SiC]

Don't dismiss youngsters so readily and certainly don't mock them for a lack of knowledge.

As I've said before, this forum has a decent contingent of under 30s and a large proportion of under 40s.

 

Less under 20s but to be fair at that age, you're more worried about what the other/same sex thinks about you and going out getting drunk. Plus it's only 2 years or so of experience on the road, of which you're limited to 1l corsas that weight nearly a tonne and half. That engine was just about useable in a Corsa B, but the added bulk of a Corsa D (are we on E yet?) isn't something to get thrilled about.

 

Once insurance and life starts becoming sensible and settling down more, cars become more of a thing for a lot of people.

[lesapandre]

2005 - 14 Citroen C1? Pretty new - I dont like most modern cars..but these babies in the diesel 1.4 seem quite nice. Never been in one.

[Kiltox]

As a random example, I'm currently sitting in Tesco car park (in a 16 year old E38) waiting on my good lady who is at the dentist.

 

On my right is a 51 plate Vectra. In front is an 02 Polo and a 54 plate Clio.

 

There's loads of anonymous modern stuff too (in fact, I consider those three to be "anonymous modern stuff"), but in a random six cars, four of them are significantly more than ten years old. You wouldn't have seen that 30 years ago.

Agree with this - think about how many people buying the stereotypical sub £500 banger these days as their first car don’t need to worry about structural rust, utterly knackered 100k mile engines etc

[SiC]

Agree with this - think about how many people buying the stereotypical sub £500 banger these days as their first car don’t need to worry about structural rust, utterly knackered 100k mile engines etc

Instead of that, they have to worry about the cost of insurance. Its why these PCP/lease deals are so popular, as you get insurance included.

[Formula Autos]

Ford Cougar - I know it's a mk2 mundano in a party frock but it's again a really good motor to drive. V6 pretty pokey as well. Regret weighing my one in, mainly as I couldn't afford to have the rear suspension rebushed. Only made 10,000 worldwide IIRC.

 

I think maybe only 10,000 were badged as Fords, but if you add in the Mercury Cougar (as it was badged in the USA) they made way more than that.

 

European production was in Koln in Germany, from kits sent over by Mercury, a sort of reverse of the XR4i/Merkur situation 15 years previously. Not quite CKD, as there was some local content as well. There's also a fair bit of Mazda MX-6 under the skin of a Cougar, as well as a lot of Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique- which were the Yankee-doodle versions of the Mondeo, and not quuuite the same.

 

The Cougar is Mondeo based, but not as much as you might think.

 

As for shite on the cusp of being a classic, surely the old barges from the major European manufacturers will have a bit of nostalgia value soon? Cars like the Omega, Scorpio, Safrane, XM, 605, 800 et al are something that just doesn't figure in the new car market now. If your Dad had one as a company car 20-odd years ago, and you have a hankering for a classic car as a plaything, might they start to enter your thoughts?

[Hendry]

As I've said before, this forum has a decent contingent of under 30s and a large proportion of under 40s.

 

Less under 20s but to be fair at that age, you're more worried about what the other/same sex thinks about you and going out getting drunk. Plus it's only 2 years or so of experience on the road, of which you're limited to 1l corsas that weight nearly a tonne and half. That engine was just about useable in a Corsa B, but the added bulk of a Corsa D (are we on E yet?) isn't something to get thrilled about.

 

Once insurance and life starts becoming sensible and settling down more, cars become more of a thing for a lot of people.

 

Oh yes we are on the Corsa E! Sadly! Have been for about 3 years now, I had one of the first and while not a bad looking thing it was an utter hateful, uncomfortable, slow, unrefined, thirsty heap of shoddily built nonsense which was in the dealers near enough every fortnight with things going wrong that dont tend to go wrong on 10 year old 100,000 mile cars. Mine was a 1.4 and was still a lethargic, underpowered slow piece of crap. 

 

I fail to understand how anyone could actually live with a 1.0 n/a Corsa D, clearly Vauxhall sussed this out as the only 1.0 engine in the Corsa E is a Turbo unit. 

[Rot Rod Jon]

This is mine. One old giffer owner, 50k miles, history, dealer trade car £300 well spent. Absolutely love it. Goes well, comfortable and doesn't use much juice. Can't fault it. Makes nice noise too IMHO.

 

Spoke too soon. Went for MOT today having decided to not look under car first as it was too cold. Matey from underneath muttered something about brake pipes. Got it in the rollers and I stamped on the brake - loud pop from the rear and bloody brake fluid everywhere. Left me with a slight problem that where I get car tested is where I used to live about 60 miles away from here in the middle of nowhere. In the end I drove it down the lane on the handbrake dumped it at the side of the road and rang Nervous Breakdown. Told them it shit itself there and got a ride home. Now got to change 4 brake pipes. Bastard!

[406V6]

I think the sought after cars in the future will be the sporty and less common variants of older popular chod. Most froggie stuff will never be worth much.

 

So here's my list until I think of some more.

• 
  

  Focus ST and similar

  
  
  
• 
  

  Cavalier SRi

  
  
  
• 
  

  Calibra

  
  
  
• 
  

  Omega MV6

  
  
  
• 
  

  Senator

  
  
  
• 
  

  Citroen C6

  
  
  
• 
  

  Citroen Xantia Activa

  
  
  
• 
  

  205 GTi

  
  
  
• 
  

  Rover 75 V8

  
  
  
• 
  

  Golf VR6

  
  
  
• 
  

  Honda S2000

  
  
  
• 
  

  Astra GTE and GSI

  
  
  
• 
  

  Peugeot 406 Coupe V6

  
  
  
• 
  

  Really can't be bothered to list Mercs, Audis and BMWs. Scrap the lot.

  
  
  

[Yoss]

Skoda Felicia

These hit the bottom of their depreciation curve about 15 years ago and are showing no signs of going up again. More of a flatline than a curve. I do study Felicia's for sale on a regular basis, mainly as I intend to be the last person in the country running one. But I have noticed a couple of ads recently describing them as classics but I think that may just be desperation on the seller's part.

[vulgalour]

The Felicia might do an Estelle with its value.  Keep hold of it for another 20 years to find out.