Zel's Motoring Adventures...Peugeot, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar & A Sinclair C5 - 22/06 - Cleaning Day...

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Continuing the theme of me turning up with the most unusual thing in the car park...

Had the smug satisfaction this afternoon of making use of how narrow the Invacar is when I found two cars both encroaching on the space between them - yet still had plenty of space to be able to slot into the gap.  I'd forgotten how satisfying doing that is.  It used to be a favourite pastime when I had the Cappuccino.

ahh things I look forward to doing in REV  

I have often wondered if other members of the public realise just how slim the statistical chances are of stumbling into a Model 70 is

given TPA621M and MPH759P are out of the ~80 known surviving Model 70's the only ones I know of that are used on the road with any regularity... (and TWC when she is not suffering from oil leak issues!)

[adw1977]

17 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

 

 

Nice line up of blue vehicles in size order!

[Zelandeth]

I had a bit of a moment of realisation today, in that while I had changed the diff oil and topped up the gearbox oil, I hadn't actually changed the gearbox oil - because there's no drain plug (not massively surprising as there's a diff in the way).  I'd always intended to vac the oil out to change it completely, but according to my whiteboard it hadn't yet been done.  Until today.

The oil in general wasn't bad, but it looked like there was some darker gunk removed from the bottom.

Ever wanted to see what's inside an Invacar gearbox?

Then with nice fresh oil in.

The oil may well be nearly as old as the car for all I know.

I can't remember if it was on here or another forum where someone asked me if I made a point of keeping a fire extinguisher onboard and accessible...In answer to that question: Yes.

I really want to get the floor covering sorted out.  The rubber matting really is shot in my case.

I definitely will be reverting to my earlier approach where paint is concerned...Not so much because the new paint has adhered so poorly to the existing paint in some areas, but because the finish there was so much better.

I've learned a few things since I started out, so we should be able to get a better finish now than we originally saw.  The car's also generally presentable enough that I don't mind doing a bit of work panel-by-panel going forward.

[egg]

22 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

The rubber matting really is shot in my case.

Options here, Zel.

https://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/category/120/rubber-matting

[Zelandeth]

11 minutes ago, egg said:

Options here, Zel.

https://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/category/120/rubber-matting

To be honest I'd rather switch to carpet.  The left/right striping in this stuff makes it bloody slippery in the lateral direction and I've nearly landed face first on the tarmac on a couple of occasions while climbing out if my shoes are slightly damp.  Plus I think carpeting will help tame down noise levels in the cabin a bit.  I'll be going with something very low key, probably a dark/mid-grey with a short pile.  I want to actually use this car and this is the sort of thing which will make it a more pleasant place to be...There are plenty of mint condition examples in museums for folks to look at if that's their thing.

[plasticvandan]

Given the cars ahem weatherproofing,I'd be inclined to go for some sort of marine carpet

[egg]

maybe some adhesive soundproofing then the carpet on top?

[LightBulbFun]

44 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

There are plenty of mint condition examples in museums for folks to look at if that's their thing.

well 7 in the UK...

sorry not helping! couldn't help myself  (just counting Model 70's here)

although it should make your planned trip relatively straight forward

(until you get to WOI654 in Ulster  )

 

[Christine]

7 is more than enough

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, plasticvandan said:

Given the cars ahem weatherproofing,I'd be inclined to go for some sort of marine carpet

To be fair, even in the biblical downpour yesterday there was only one drip landing on the floor.  Given what I started with I was quite surprised by that.  To be honest I really just ought to get the screen seals both changed and be done with it.

The main points of ingress are limited to the doors themselves which I have a plan in place to deal with. 

She lives in a bone dry well ventilated garage though so any damp which does occur while out shouldn't linger.

 

I need to have a think about sound deadening.  The main reason I'm not planning on too much of it is simple: weight.  There are several aspects I want to address in turn.

[] Floor.  TPA has had the aluminium replacement floor panel fitted.  However this is simply riveted in place in maybe a dozen places around the outside.  The rest is able to flex and clatter against the chassis underneath.  You can make comedy wobble board noises by placing your foot in certain places.  That can't be helping anything.  Once the rubber mat is removed that will be getting securely fastened to the chassis across the whole length and width.  The underside will then be absolutely drowned in underbody wax to help further damp anything which might think about rattling.

Yes galvanic corrosion could be a long term worry...but even if the floor panel did rot out, it's a totally flat piece of ally sheet that's riveted in.  Hardly the end of the road to change.

[] Front bulkhead.  This whole area is essentially a bass drum.  Putting your foot against it while driving at speed can noticeably reduce the boominess in the cabin at certain speeds.  This is somewhere that some proper sound deadening foam might be needed on the outside to stop the panel vibrating.

[] Roof.  No brainer.  It's unfinished fibreglass and is probably responsible for about 70% of the general reverb in the cabin.  Adding a soft finish to that should really help cut down on the perceived "buzz box" feeling in the cabin.

[] Parcel shelf.  If there's anywhere in the cabin I reckon proper sound insulation is going to be helpful this is probably it as it sits about an inch away from the CVT pulleys.  The bulkhead in general could probability benefit from it.  Oh, and adding some proper bungs/boots etc to the various passthroughs.  Nonsense like this (heater/choke control cables) really won't help!

By the way I'm curious if anyone knows what that Terry clip is meant for.  It's probably going to be removed soon as I've nearly taken my eye out on it half a dozen times working through the test service hatch.

The thing it's a bit hard to convey with regards to the noise level aspect of comfort in this car is that it's not just the overall decibel level that's an issue (which honestly isn't dire all things considered, I've definitely been in noisier vehicles) but the nature of the noise.  The thing which really grates is the huge amount of what can best be described as white noise bouncing around the cabin...and it is bouncing around, the clue is that opening the windows lessens the effect.

The vast majority of the racket you're aware of is from the CVT.  You're not honestly really aware of the engine aside from at idle and an honestly rather nice growl from the air intake as you pass 60mph, other than that it's hissing whining belt which dominates the soundscspe.  There's gearbox whine too but I don't find that objectionable either.  The belt noise is the biggest gripe.

Something someone suggested to me on another forum was to paint the surfaces with a rubberised material (truck bed liner was suggested I believe) as it should help dampen things down a bit.  I may well try this on a few areas - no reason I can't overcoat it in the original colour to make that pretty much invisible - like the aforementioned front bulkhead (which needs painting anyway) and the inside of the doors.  I don't want to mess around with the inside of the roof as I don't want to go applying things there which I then have to remove when I come to try to line it.  Anything we can do which can mess with the resonance characteristics within the cabin is worth a shot though...as that frequency seeming to be right in the "I want to gouge my eardrums out with dull spoons" at 30-40mph is probably the biggest issue we're dealing with.

I'm not an expert and this is all seat of the pants, making it up as I go stuff...but it's astonishing what a few bits of foam strip, a bit of flashband and a few extra bolts have already done to reduce the racket.

I'm not kidding myself, this is never going to be a quiet car.  Nor is is ever going to be anything even approaching refined.  Doesn't mean I can't improve things a bit relative to how it left the factory though...and I'm actually quite enjoying the process.

[PhilA]

Clip for holding the tool used to remove the cover?

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

By the way I'm curious if anyone knows what that Terry clip is meant for.

 

somewhere to stash F14T12's?

on a more serious note im not actually sure, ill have to dig into the large stash of photos I have on my main computer tomorrow and see what I can dig up, I know on REV and a couple other Model 70's I quickly checked just now, that location is where the demister hose enters the cabin so there is obviously not a terry clip in the same location

 

I do wonder if its part of an old fire extinguisher mounting system, the Model 70 used a few over its service life from what I can gather,

but it does not really look like there would be space to fit a fire extinguisher there

[bobdisk]

On 8/19/2020 at 1:09 AM, Zelandeth said:

[] Roof.  No brainer.  It's unfinished fibreglass and is probably responsible for about 70% of the general reverb in the cabin.  Adding a soft finish to that should really help cut down on the perceived "buzz box" feeling in the cabin.

There is (I think) a proper roof headlining for the Model 70. Ask Dollywobbler, he got one for TWC.

[dollywobbler]

Just catching up here, but before LBF does any more damage to poor TWC's reputation (  ) I need to confirm that while she still hates hills, she's going very well. 50mph feels like an easy cruise now. The key difference between TPA's old motor and TPA's new one is that the old motor was unused from 1999 until 2018. TPA's new motor was at least getting more regular use over the years. I suspect the old motor would benefit from a mild refresh - new piston rings etc.

Also, in terms of handling, while it is better than you expect, wait until you drive TPA in the wind! Absolutely terrifying. They are better than you expect in some ways, but while they do feel more stable than you might think, I don't think you can ever get away from three-wheelers having in-built stability issues compared to a four-wheeled vehicle. I've seen Morgans on two wheels in harsh cornering, Reliant Robins when pushed. I always bear this in mind.

On headliner, the one I've got robs a lot of headroom. It's touching my head most of the time. I think a direct fitting on the roof itself is a better idea.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

23 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

...., I don't think you can ever get away from three-wheelers having in-built stability issues compared to a four-wheeled vehicle....

If the wheelbase is effectively an isosceles triangle, then it will always have an imbalance. 

Are there any 3-wheelers out there with an equilateral triangle for a wheelbase?

[spartacus]

46 minutes ago, Tadhg Tiogar said:

If the wheelbase is effectively an isosceles triangle, then it will always have an imbalance. 

Are there any 3-wheelers out there with an equilateral triangle for a wheelbase?

I think it's more to do with weight being distributed inside the footprint of the triangle and the center of gravity.

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

Just catching up here, but before LBF does any more damage to poor TWC's reputation (  ) I need to confirm that while she still hates hills, she's going very well. 50mph feels like an easy cruise now. The key difference between TPA's old motor and TPA's new one is that the old motor was unused from 1999 until 2018. TPA's new motor was at least getting more regular use over the years. I suspect the old motor would benefit from a mild refresh - new piston rings etc.

and a 660cc upgrade to deal with the hills?  (happy to hear TWC is running well otherwise)

as a side note I noticed you have said several times recently that TPA came off the road/was unused from 1999, but my records show she was last taxed in 2001, so im curious if there was something in TPA, like old service records that indicated otherwise?

 

as a side note, I dont have it in screenshot form sadly but if your curious TWC was last taxed in Ministry service on the 16th of June 2003   

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, bobdisk said:

There is (I think) a proper roof headlining for the Model 70. Ask Dollywobler, he got one for TWC.

there is one of the later type in the spares stash I think  

4 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

On headliner, the one I've got robs a lot of headroom. It's touching my head most of the time. I think a direct fitting on the roof itself is a better idea.

Post March 1976 Model 70's did originally come with one, but after 40 years they do start to droop 

obviously at some point in time after production ended,  it was replaced (in the 1990's I think) with the type as seen in TWC, Dolly and REV, which was panels with fabric directly bonded to them like a more traditional headliner I think?

(its interesting to note that Stuart had no idea this later post production, replacement type was a thing, until you fitted one to TWC, and since then REV and Dolly are the only other Model 70's known to be fitted with such headliners)

[Zelandeth]

Oh I've been out in the wind, only slightly squirrelly below 40 or so, but yeah on the open road is "exciting."  Like driving a Lada with an out of adjustment steering box and misaligned tracking.

There's not a massive amount you can do about that... it's kind of just a price you pay for the layout.  I'm hopeful that enclosing some of the front end might help *slightly* as I'm sure it does a good impression of a hovercraft skirt right now.

I think engine wise there's always a bit of random chance involved too.  Sometimes you just get ones which for no readily editable reason are always a bit flat and others which far exceed expectations.  I don't think there's a huge gulf between them performance wise, definitely not like there was before TWC had the new pulleys fitted.  I've just been *really* lucky I think with this power unit.  While it doesn't necessarily translate to actual MPH it just sounds a lot more eager than most I've seen video of.  The exhaust is slightly different to most I've seen too so not sure if that may be a factor.

It's worth mentioning as well... I've no knowledge of this engine history in service.  While KPL was showing (if I remember rightly) 28K miles, I've absolutely no idea whether it's the original engine to the car or whether it's had any significant work done to it at any point.

[LightBulbFun]

42 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

 I've absolutely no idea whether it's the original engine to the car

for what its worth, I know the engine number on KPL's engine matches up with that on KPL's chassis plate and DVLA records

speaking of @dollywobbler any idea on when you might be able to grab TPA's and TWC's original engine numbers?  so I can see if those match up, and hopefully use the info to try and work out when they changed from the cartridge oil filter setup to the spin on type

42 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

It's worth mentioning as well... I've no knowledge of this engine history in service.  While KPL was showing (if I remember rightly) 28K miles, I've absolutely no idea whether it's the original engine to the car or whether it's had any significant work done to it at any point.

from what I understand although the workshop manual does go into detail on how to service and disassemble the engine (its literally just the english version of the Steyr puch engine service manual )  

most approved repairs would just replace the entire engine with another if any major issues cropped up, as that was quicker/easier then waste time trying to change a duff piston ring or something such

so if the engine numbers etc match up, then it probably means, that, that Model 70 never had any sort of major engine work done, since if it required any they would have just dropped another engine in

 

I find if you think of the invalid vehicle service, as a bus company, the approved repairs are your bus garages and Model 70's as single seater buses, then how things where done etc suddenly make a lot more sense

 

[dollywobbler]

Sorry. I need to start checking the forum more on my phone. I'm always at home on the laptop, with the Invacar miles away when I remember numbers!

TPA use date was based on it (I think) having a 1999 tax disc? Maybe it was 01. Was aware that TWC was still in use right to the end, which is why I hoped I might stand a chance of finding out who the last user was. Sadly haven't managed that. Maybe I need to try the local papers in Sussex?

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, dollywobbler said:

Sorry. I need to start checking the forum more on my phone. I'm always at home on the laptop, with the Invacar miles away when I remember numbers!

yeah dont forget theres 3 numbers to grab if possible please , the numbers on the 2 Engines you have and then a good shot of the chassis plate in the cabin if you can grab one please (I have one but I forgot to save the uncensored version LOL)

1 hour ago, dollywobbler said:

TPA use date was based on it (I think) having a 1999 tax disc? Maybe it was 01.

ah interesting, checking the the ol project invacar videos I dont see any tax disks on TPA but could have easily fallen off at some point before this shot?

 

1 hour ago, dollywobbler said:

Was aware that TWC was still in use right to the end, which is why I hoped I might stand a chance of finding out who the last user was. Sadly haven't managed that. Maybe I need to try the local papers in Sussex?

Last user will be whoever the last keeper is before it entered private ownership  (apart from the very last cars in service which I think all had their keeperships transferred to the DHSS in 2002, but research on that is still on going)

as invalid vehicles issued to users on a long term/permanent basis where registered in their name,

vehicles issued to someone temporarily (like Graham hill) or if used as a "courtesy car" for when someones normal machine was in for servicing, where registered to to the local ALAC (artificial limb and appliance centre) 

given TWC's last keeper change before you acquired her was on the 4th of December 1997, and that you said you seem to recall that her last keeper recorded on the old V5, was the DHSS in some form, im inclined to believe that TWC spent her last years as a courtesy car and was only probably only finally sent for scrap in 2003, once all the regular users in TWC's area had given up their Model 70's, so there was no longer a need to have a courtesy car incase the 1 remaining invalid vehicle user needed a temporary vehicle should their vehicle need major servicing or the such like

[dollywobbler]

Ah, that stands a fair chance. The DHSS was indeed the final owner before me. It's a shame the chap who 'scrapped' them passed away, though they only became available because he had. But a lot of knowledge died with him.

[LightBulbFun]

11 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

Ah, that stands a fair chance. The DHSS was indeed the final owner before me. It's a shame the chap who 'scrapped' them passed away, though they only became available because he had. But a lot of knowledge died with him.

yeah its a shame GDPR ruined the whole previous keeper thing, it would be very interesting to see what V888 would have produced otherwise  

(I recall someone here back in the day, even getting copies of every V5 ever issued for the vehicle they where enquiring about, a Triumph or some sort IIRC)

 

I wish there was some way to get around it on historical grounds or something such...

[Dick Longbridge]

^ I got a copy of every single V5 issued for my previous Mk2 Golf GTI (13 in total iirc!) six or seven years ago. £5 cheque to Dvla and Fanny's your aunt. Such a shame it's no longer an option. 

[Zelandeth]

Arse.  CVT belt just snapped.

[LightBulbFun]

19 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Arse.  CVT belt just snapped.

oh thats not good!

hopefully somewhere not too far from home?

at least a replacement can bit fitted on the roadside as @dollywobbler demonstrated!  

 

wonder what caused it to snap given the pulleys where NOS and properly adjusted to be the correct distance apart, only thing I can think of is maybe age has caused the belt to degrade somehow, like well an old rubber band!

 

according to the parts stash list theres 4 new drive belts in the spares stash, your more than welcome to one if you no longer trust the spare ones you have due to their dubious storage conditions?

[Zelandeth]

Yeah, just old age I think.  I know the belts I've got haven't been stored in the best conditions so reckon that's a factor.  No warning like when the one on TWC went, this was just absolutely fine then *BANG!* and no drive.

About ten miles from home, just waiting for recovery now.  Don't have a spare belt with me nor the tools to fit it...Nobody at home has the knowledge to grab what I need to bring it either or I'd get someone to run me a belt and some tools.

I did check the belt for any signs of fraying etc last week, nothing untoward was spotted.  It is under a lot of load though, especially at speed!

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Yeah, just old age I think.  I know the belts I've got haven't been stored in the best conditions so reckon that's a factor.  No warning like when the one on TWC went, this was just absolutely fine then *BANG!* and no drive.

yeah, interesting how it went, yeah I think TWC's one went, because the (then bad) pulleys literally ripped it apart rather then the belt itself failing if that makes sense

4 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

About ten miles from home, just waiting for recovery now.  Don't have a spare belt with me nor the tools to fit it...Nobody at home has the knowledge to grab what I need to bring it either or I'd get someone to run me a belt and some tools.

ah hopefully you dont have to wait too long!

I hope its just a one off/freak accident, and has not dissuaded you too much from using TPA in the future

I was quite happy to see another Model 70 get used regularly once more so it would be a shame for that to stop

tho I do understand if your a bit cagey at first after repair, bit late now! but probably worth carrying/stashing a spare belt somewhere in future outings  (I know Dollywobbler did, but I completly forgot about that, until now, so at least it reminded me to make sure I have one in REV somewhere as knowing my luck otherwise, id snap a belt while on the outside lane of the A406!)

(id like to think your average AA man would have the tools in his van necessary to swap a belt out provided you have a replacement belt on hand, its just a few bolts to remove the pulleys IIRC nothing particularly specialised?)

[LightBulbFun]

14 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

"super sausage cafe" 

I dont know if a pair of tights would be robust enough to bodge a Model 70 belt, but maybe a chain of sausages might?