The future of dieselshite: is it bleak, or bollocks?

[Junkman]

OK, so let's scrap lots of perfectly good cars with years of use left in them.

Let's then build lots of new cars to replace them using lots of raw materials, energy, chemicals etc to CUT pollution !!

 

The problem with Diesels is that they are seriously damaging the air quality in cities

with measurable impact on the health and life expectation of the people.

So let's not scrap perfectly good cars and wait for London 1952 to repeat itself?

[oldcars]

I have a 75 diesel and no plans to get rid. If i have to move to the midlands so be it, they will never ban a Rover in the midlands.

[DSdriver]

When I was a kid I went to  school on one of these

The world was a much better place, oh, hang on, we had really bad smogs.

[conkerman]

It's easier to fit after treatment to commercials and the homologation test cycles are more harsh than for cars.

I forsee a VED increase for EU3, 4 and 5 diesels coming up, along with some increases to fuel duty. This along with road charging in cities means its not a great time for Diesel.

Like it or not, local air pollution is the hot item, and that is NOx related. It will be interesting to see the situation once the replacement to the NEDC has been in a little while.

Everyone will end up paying, as the treasury won't miss the opportunity to relieve the motorist of come cash.

 

Sent from my Vodafone Smart ultra 6 using Tapatalk

[Timewaster]

The 1950s smogs were all to do with coal burning I believe.

Coal soot makes buildings black and gets up your nose a bit.

Modern diesel soot is much worse as the particles are so small that they get right into the lungs where the damage is done.

[dieselnutjob]

Please can someone explain this.

 

It says here https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/air-quality-consultation-phase-2/

 

 

We are proposing to strengthen the emissions standard to also cover Particulate Matter (PM) emissions from diesel vehicles.

 

There are up to 430 vehicles registered in London that meet Euro 6 diesel standards for NOx but emit up to six times the Euro 6 standard for PM.

 

This change is to recognise that the latest Euro 6/VI standard for diesel vehicles include controls for both NOx and PM emissions.

 

and then

 

 

Diesel vehicles that have been type approved as Euro 6/VI already meet ULEZ emissions standards for both pollutants and will not be affected by this change.

 

So are they saying that I can buy a Euro 6 diesel that isn't Euro 6 compliant for PM ?  That would be an expensive mistake !

[PiperCub]

I didn't realise that the OMG-it's-a-diesel plans were anything much more than probably banning older ones (& prob older petrol cars too) from major cities starting with Londinium and resussatating the scrappage scheme for any non-Euro (insert number) compliant old school diesel car (pre-2000??). Plus of course, the inevitable increase in fuel cost to help things along. 

[blackboilersuit]

Heard an interesting interview on radio 4 this morning about this. Interviewee worked for a company that provided catalyst and dpf installs on commercials. He said they could get any commercial diesel NOX compliant but not a car. Their products were big and expensive so suitable for a big commercial truck or bus worth £100k and with a 20+ year working life and space enough underneath to fit. All of this made it unsuitable for a car. 

 

I don't think we're going to see a war on diesel across the board. I think diesel cars will effectively get banned from city centers and to be honest I have no problem with that. City center air quality can be really shit and I have no problem with steps being taken to try to address this. VED may go up but I don't think duty will as the haulage industry have no other option.

 

Regardless of new legislation though the diesels of today were never going to be viable autoshite fodder in 10 years time anyway due to OMG DPF/DMF/HDI mega ££££ repair bill lottery. In the long run your average shitter may benefit as the motor industry start focusing more on pez engines again.

[richardthestag]

in the meantime and provided you dont need to drive in central lunnon*, there are some cracking diesel deals on used motors at the mo because of omgdieselsaregoingtobebannedfromplanetearth panic

 

ironic isnt it that cleaning diesels up with egr, dpf etc has rendered them worse for lung related risks

 

*only a nutter would want to drive in central lunnon

[sierraman]

In the sub £1000 bracket most diesels are fucked anyway, either the old type ones that are generally worn out or newer diesels that are seriously prone to serious problems.

 

I've had a diesel, liked it but wouldn't have another. Petrol much quieter and infinitely more reliable.

[beko1987]

 

Perhaps they'll put an extra tax on diesels, but as usual it'll probably be those cars on the post-2001 tax system that get stiffed as it's hardly worth chasing owners of 15+ year old cars for extra money, especially considering the tiny minority of them which are actually powered by heavy oil.

 

 

I forgot about this when obtaining the gooner, and because it's post 2001 *spit* it's £26 a month to tax rather than the £19 a month the zantia/ZX 1.9td's were. I forgot about the rule change, although tbh the cost of the gooner means I can pay many years of £7/month more before even getting close to caring).

 

I knew there was a reason I preferred pre 2001 stuff! The second I get aggro about my choice of car and it's engine (which can still blow out loads of clag if I really boot it) it's back to 1.9td powered shite or even something medium and pezzle (talking to Tabact his 1.8 pez xantia did respectable MPG)

 

Although what I am secretly hoping is that the price of pez drops as derv rises as the phase-out happens, then I can finally get something v8 and have half a chance of running it!

[HMC]

OK, so let's scrap lots of perfectly good cars with years of use left in them.

Let's then build lots of new cars to replace them using lots of raw materials, energy, chemicals etc to CUT pollution !!

Then, 15 years on introduce a scheme to get rid of these vehicles from our roads, as in fact it has been found that they are in fact EVIL- and repeat.

[purplebargeken]

The diesel Alfa can stay until the very end/or when it dies big time.

 

Hate driving in London anyhoo.

[LostnotFound]

With the proliferation of PCP will the scrapage scheme have much effect? Presuming it's the same as the last one, how many people who would jump at a brand new car if only it was 2k cheaper wouldn't already be leasing something? 

 

I think people's fears aren't the current 'T Zone' but the push towards extending it, first the north and south circular which then suggests pushing out again, presumably aiming for the M25? Driving into town atm is a pretty masochistic thing to do, driving into the M25 rather than getting public transport to the centre then back out again is something that millions do quite regularly. It also feels like the thin end of the wedge for road charging.

 

Other cities will be all over this, Cambridge would love anyway to punish the peasants that come in to service their rich residents, they've been trying to get a congestion charge in for ages.

 

Given the average lifespan of cars these days surely there isn't much point, as everything Euro 3 will be in the hands of this forum in a couple of years. It seems more like doing something to show you are doing something, heck how a 1990s CG125 is seen as worse for London's air than an idling black cab I'll never know.

[DSdriver]

Snot just London that is polluted, this is what SE England looks like from France

 

Stuff we breathe by Jean-Pierre Declemy, on Flickr

[angle]

I always like invading these threads with facts. Let's go with London, seeing as that's the only place that has any firm plans:

 

'banning' = charging £10-£12.50 a day if you drive in central London

'banning diesels' = charging pre-Euro 6 diesels, i.e. anything pre-2015. Also applies to anything petrol and, pre-Euro 4, so 2006 or older

'starting with private cars as they're the softest targets' = enforcing the same standards for all vehicles at the same time, including an earlier deadline for TfL buses and any newly registered taxis or minicabs

 

There are IMHO valid criticisms of the ULEZ, not least on the grounds that it relies on vehicles meeting emissions standards that they just don't when driven on an actual road (TfL tested some Euro 6 cars under London conditions - one of the diesel cars tested emitted 15 times the amount of NOx it was meant to) but it tends to get lost amongst the more tabloid stuff...

[somewhatfoolish]

OK, so let's scrap lots of perfectly good cars with years of use left in them.

Let's then build lots of new cars to replace them using lots of raw materials, energy, chemicals etc to CUT pollution !!

No doubt the SMMT are fapping themselves into a frenzy at the prospect of the public being mugged into buying a load of new cars to replace cars which are entirely serviceable and have years of life left. Again.

I've been saying this for years. An example from the bus world:

 

1970's Bristol VR double decker fitted with an 11,450cc non-turbo Gardner 6LXB - returns around 12-14mpg.

 

2013 Dennis Enviro 400 decker fitted with a 'low emission' 8.3 Cummins ISC - 5-6mpg.

 

How the buggery fuck can an engine that burns twice as much fuel put out better emissions?

Fatarse new bus shite, badermatic transmission for the driver, laden with fat people and air conditioning, plus filters and catalysts which wreck the (really quite good)efficiency of modern electronically controlled dizzlers. A modernised 6LXB would be just as good but the NOx output would have the fun police hauling you away for re-education.

 

When I was a kid I went to school on one of these

The world was a much better place, oh, hang on, we had really bad smogs.

Smogs were mostly from people heating their gaffs with nutty slack and that London having 2 coal-fired power stations right in the middle of it and 2-3 upwind just for good measure. Trolley buses FTW, why they were binned is slightly beyond me.

[Eddie Honda]

This is the future of dieselshite:

 

Volvo_340DL_D_88-D-14183_002.jpg by E Honda, on Flickr

 

Too shite for the UK market.

[angle]

Please can someone explain this...

 

(Snip)

 

So are they saying that I can buy a Euro 6 diesel that isn't Euro 6 compliant for PM ?  That would be an expensive mistake !

So, anything you buy that was registered from September 2015 had to be Euro 6 compliant and will be fine. It wasn't an overnight switch though - loads of cars already met the standards and will also be fine (emissions are on the V5, although not sure whether that's something TfL can check or whether you have to register as compliant somehow). But, the previous proposals meant that your car only had to meet the limits for NOx, so you could have a car that wasn't Euro 6 compliant but would still be OK in the ULEZ. Now, you have to meet the standards for NOx and PM.

[cros]

No mention yet of the pollution falling out of the sky just as there is little reference to it by the BBC, Mayor of London and just about any other of the self righteous CUNTS.

They ignore it because they're still 'flying round the world in their jet plane baby' and they don't intend to moderate their behaviour one bit, in fact they're going to spend the money they make from the shit they peddle to get away a bit more often. As well as dumping kerosene on your swede, have some more planes blocking out the sun and bursting your fucking eardrums.

One plane taking off produces more 'deadly poison' than 25 Reliant Regals trundling to the post office once a week for a lifetime. Source- fuck off.

[angle]

You mean something like the Mayor saying "Heathrow expansion is the wrong decision for London, and the wrong decision for the whole of Britain. A new runway at Heathrow will be devastating for air quality across London – air pollution around the airport is already above legal levels of NO2", say?

[Cavcraft]

I thought all these modern fuels contained some 'bio' content? There's a bloody big plant opened up quite near here that uses the waste from abbatoirs (really) to blend into bio fuels additives. The future now is clearly buying up all old petrol Peugeots, converting them to XUD diesels with Bosch pumps and forgetting to update the V5.

[plasticvandan]

I'm sticking to two stroke,I like burning petrol and oil.

[lisbon_road]

So much going on.  I really feel concerned that these scrappage schemes aim at cleaning up air quality, which is great, but.......there's so much being learnt now about emissions - they talk about particulates from tyres, I've seen some stuff about the latest petrol cars producing loads of small particulates, even Euro 6 produces loads of small particulates, and some Euro 6s seem poor on NOX - so we could go after all this change and still have crap air quality.

 

Think of all the effort to get hybrid buses with all the Borismasters, now they're talking that we should go all electric, (wot, like the 1500 trolleybuses London used to have?). 

 

I'd just discourage all bloody cars regardless of Euro wot. 

 

I run an ancient car with a closed loop lpg system.  Advocating lpg is rapidly going out of fashion, but it won't stop me.

[FakeConcern]

I read somewhere that Londinium is sufferering 1940's style smog because of the popularity of wood burning stoves.

[Split_Pin]

I don't recall hearing that diesel drivers will be penalised .

 

As Cleon-Fonte said, the proposal is to introduce a scrappage scheme as the Government couldn't get away with punishing the drivers whom followed their advice back in the noughties to buy a diesel.

 

However I would be interested to see what happens to the price of diesel when whatever scheme that is cooked up comes into force.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Sod the diseasals. It's these bastards which are killing us softly:

 

 

 

The smell is totally gopping. Give me filthy exhaust fumes any day of the week.

 

Back on topic, I guess Mother Theresa will try to get us buying these beauties before we know it.

 

Edit: I see fakeconcern shares my sentiments. Wood burners should be banished to room 101, unless you live in the back end of beyond.

[cros]

You mean something like the Mayor saying "Heathrow expansion is the wrong decision for London, and the wrong decision for the whole of Britain. A new runway at Heathrow will be devastating for air quality across London – air pollution around the airport is already above legal levels of NO2", say?

Opposing Heathrow expansion will do nothing to reduce existing levels of pollution from flights above the city. Only discouraging air travel by the same means that the Mayor penalises those who use fossil fueled vehicles in London will achieve this, and he has had little to say on this other than 'we must develop more efficient planes'. No call for raising duty on aviation fuel, no recognition that a van delivering, say, medical supplies is more vital than a plane delivering yet more visitors to a teeming capitol which will then need...

[bigstraight6]

The problem with Diesels is that they are seriously damaging the air quality in cities

with measurable impact on the health and life expectation of the people.

So let's not scrap perfectly good cars and wait for London 1952 to repeat itself?

I well remember a trip to London to take in the sights in 1982 and the inside of my nose looked like a chimney sweeps at the conclusion of the day, this was not the case when I went back there a few years back which makes me rather sceptical.

 

If this anti dirty old diesel hysteria carries on it will be the less well off in society like yours truly who will be shafted, I'm not in any position to get financed upto the eyeballs to buy a new car even with the £2000 sweetener I'd get for my 54 plate Volvo D5, which incidentally is extremely frugal compared to its petrol engined counterpart and has another 10 years of service left in it I would say.....

[Cleon-Fonte]

 I'm not in any position to get financed upto the eyeballs to buy a new car even with the £2000 sweetener I'd get for my 54 plate Volvo D5, which incidentally is extremely frugal compared to its petrol engined counterpart and has another 10 years of service left in it I would say.....

 

Don't do it, then. Nobody has suggested a mandatory scrappage scheme.