Learners on Motorways

[smellypoo]

It's a step in the right direction, but it really depends on how well it is executed - the learner needs to have a certain level of competency before they are taking instruction on the motorway. 

 

Personally I think the assessment of driving instructors needs to be much more stringent - I've seen so many learners being poorly instructed it's no wonder that with the increase in numbers on the road that standards have obviously slipped - particularly apparent when you look at the way people drive anywhere along the length of the North Circular Road (A406, not a motorway but it does have 3 or 4 lanes in some places). 

[sierraman]

In other countries I think you have to do a licence in a stepped way a bit like how you do a motorbike test these days. Not sure how that would work as you could get yourself in a lot of bother in a Focus 1.0.

[Guest Hooli]

In other countries I think you have to do a licence in a stepped way a bit like how you do a motorbike test these days. Not sure how that would work as you could get yourself in a lot of bother in a Focus 1.0.

You can get in to plenty of trouble on a sub 33bhp bike (or whatever the limits are now).

[sierraman]

Not sure if its capacity based but a driving test followed by a separate motorway test may be a solution?

Possibly. I'll go on record and say the test is probably too easy. Look at the standard of driving, it's awful. I'd make it part of the test you can do basic stuff (where feasible) like change a wheel.

 

What you say about people coming to the uk and swapping their licence probably rings true. You've only got to look in the Court Report section of the local paper for a list of Roma Slovak names that have been done for either drink driving, no insurance etc. Which I find odd as the limit for blood alcohol content is much lower in Slovakia than it is here.

[M'coli]

I can say I've ever shat myself piloting either my Rialto or Regal anywhere. I was driving the Regal when I was 17, so it must have been the invincibility of youth rather than logic or reason.

 

Learners are already allowed on motorways: lorry and bus ones.

Knowing the area where we both started driving in, though, finding shit drivers was like shooting fish in a barrel and being more skillful than them wasn't difficult.

 

I think that where there is the possibility of driving on motorways then it should be included in the test, but they shouldn't be compulsory, otherwise things like driving on busy*^{(see below)} single-track roads should be compulsory too, because it's not just the north of Scotland that is devoid of motorways - Norfolk, Suffolk, Cornwall, Lincolnshire etc. are areas where it's not easy to find a motorway.

 

* Anyone who's driven the NC500 this year will have noticed just how fucking clueless some people are at driving on single-track roads with passing places only big enough for 1 car or van.  It's interesting driving a van over the bealach-na-ba and having a train of 5 cars behind you: you let them past, and they scurry off up the hill, nose-to-tail, then meet a similar train of arseholes coming downhill...  None of them have the gumption to think that staying roughly a passing-place distance behind the car in front will allow them to keep progress smooth.

[gordonbennet]

Of course its sense for learners or newly passed drivers to have some motorway instruction, just use a bit of common with times and places.

 

And whats with the common sense of so many driving instructors these days.

 

Whats the idea of getting a timid learner to do a three point turn on a fast industrial estate though road when less than 500 yards away in either direction were side estate roads leading to two or three businesses only, give the poor sod a chance without artics bearing down at 40 mph and cars and vans faster still whilst you feed the bloody steering wheel round.

[Willy Warpit]

Motorways are supposedly the safest part of the road network but are pretty daunting if you have never driven

on them before either accompanied or alone.

 

Roads like the A34 as SiC says can be worse both in terms of their layout and some of the lunatic driving you see

on such dual carriageways and nothing can really prepare you for that.

 

Nevertheless some experience of motorways whilst learning has got to be better than none at all

[sierraman]

As they say everybody has got to learn sometime.

 

It all wants revising, the braking distances were devised when the Austin 1300 was in. I don't think enough importance of giving way to larger vehicles is in the test.

 

I always give space to lorries on the motorway, the amount of times I see people cutting down the offside of a artic on a roundabout is beyond belief. I don't think people realise theres no margin for error if a truck hits you. You can have active this, airbag that, cut up a lorry and it hits you, you'll lose.

[Supernaut]

Trouble with that would be parts of Scotland, outlying Islands and even parts of Norn Iron, where you are a good way way from any motorway.  I agree in principle though.

 

There are no motorways north of Perth.

 

Due to this, I didn't actually drive on a motorway for years after I passed my test. Even then, it's just a 2-lane motorway all the way down to the central belt, so it's just like driving on a dual carriageway anyway, apart from having nicer sliproads.

 

 

I do remember my instructor teaching me how to drive on a dual carriageway though. I learned in Inverurie, and my instructor had a 2004 Fiesta TDCi 3dr in champagne beige (proper autoshite spec). The first time I went on the dual carriageway, as I was going down the slip road, he just turned to me and said "floor it! You've got to be doing 70mph or close to it by the end of the slip road, go for it!" I was a bit shocked at my instructor telling me to floor it, then I complied and was doing 70mph by the time I joined the dual carriageway. It was daunting doing that speed for the first few minutes, but I got used to it soon enough.

[egg]

Maybe that's what distracted Henri Paul.

Mine was white, natch

[Eddie Honda]

It all wants revising, the braking distances were devised when the Austin 1300 was in.

Long before that actually. The 1300 came out 67/68 and anyway the 1100 in 1962 was one of the first with front disc brakes.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGkKDaYd3Mo

[martc]

Judging by the number of idiots driving in the middle lane of motorways I guess there are plenty of learners using the network at the momement. Those that have not learnt to read the bloody highway code.

[Guest Hooli]

I always thought braking distances were based on the Ford Anglebox?

[sierraman]

There are no motorways north of Perth.

 

Due to this, I didn't actually drive on a motorway for years after I passed my test. Even then, it's just a 2-lane motorway all the way down to the central belt, so it's just like driving on a dual carriageway anyway, apart from having nicer sliproads.

 

 

I do remember my instructor teaching me how to drive on a dual carriageway though. I learned in Inverurie, and my instructor had a 2004 Fiesta TDCi 3dr in champagne beige (proper autoshite spec). The first time I went on the dual carriageway, as I was going down the slip road, he just turned to me and said "floor it! You've got to be doing 70mph or close to it by the end of the slip road, go for it!" I was a bit shocked at my instructor telling me to floor it, then I complied and was doing 70mph by the time I joined the dual carriageway. It was daunting doing that speed for the first few minutes, but I got used to it soon enough.

Try doing that on Junction 35 on the M1, you'd be doing over a hundred before you hit the carriageway...

[dollywobbler]

Trouble with that would be parts of Scotland, outlying Islands and even parts of Norn Iron, where you are a good way way from any motorway.  I agree in principle though.

 

Add Wales to that list. I'm a good two hours from any motorway here.

[Lord Sterling]

In principle, the idea is a good one but the problem of people living miles away from a motorway would need to be addressed as well as othe problems that might come up. How about other aspects of driving? Single track country roads? Driving at night?

 

When I passed my test, a few weeks later I found myself driving Ma's Micra up the M6 Northbound towards Stoke-on-Trent with 3 other people and 3 cases of whom I had only just met and had to take as I'd landed a trial at some horrible sales job.

 

As I was hurtling up the M6 I did wonder about telling them that it was my first time driving on a motorway, but I didn't as it might have caused unecessary concern.

 

The journey there and back was a bit boring. On the way back the head sales chap fell asleep.

[Eddie Honda]

I always thought braking distances were based on the Ford Anglebox?

Nah, before that.

 

Here's the 3rd edition from 1946:

 

[LostnotFound]

Buggering about with the learner laws irritates me as anyone who passed their test less than 12 months ago has at least shown some standard of driving in the past year.

 

Yes motorways should probably be part of it but realistically we should really be having compulsory retests every X years. Just removing the number of idiots driving with eyesight below the required standard would be worth it.

[Guest Breadvan72]

Motorway lessons are a very good idea, although the problem of locations where there are no motorways is a tricky one.   My instructor directed me onto some fast dual carriageways before the test, and thus proved that some 1980s Nissan shitbox could do 70.   I proved what a wazzock I was after passing the test by taking my dad's Montego onto the M40 and getting it to an alleged 100 mph downhill, but at least I'd had some familiarisation with fast multi lane roads. 

[Guest Hooli]

Cameras that did something about dangerous driving not safe speeds would be useful, unless we can have traffic cops back...

 

Tailgating & lane hogging are main things that need sorting out.

[SiC]

Just to give you some idea of the sliproads on the A34, here is the Highclere one:

https://goo.gl/maps/5R1nYLma7Xu

 

Starts to the left of image, finished in front of that truck. My driving instructor (who taught me in a 1.8D Fiesta) always told me on these ones to have a good look when going around that corner and if the coast isn't clear, just stop at the start of the sliproad. Unless you have a car with some go, there is no chance you'll be at a decent speed before the end. Admittedly that the asthmatic non-turbo diesel could only manage a maximum of 30mph from a dead stop at that slip road start...

[doubleyeller]

Well I passed my test, drove around for a week, and then set off along the M62 one evening when it was relatively quiet. I didn't really find it a problem to be fair. 

 

What stunned me was a few months later when I went out on the old section of the A1 between Ferrybridge and Worksop. Trying to pick up enough speed on a rubble strewn, narrow, and short acceleration shoulder coming out of a filling station was daunting indeed in a 1.2 Corsa! I swung out into the lane, put my hazards on, and tried desperately to pick up speed! Coming back, I was amazed at how quickly everything ahead could suddenly just bunch up, leaving you standing on your brakes!

 

I think this is the point, on a well graded, modern motorway, the chances of a new driver coming to grief are very low - the real danger coming from idiots on the road tailgating them, and getting aggressive. An older road like the A1, or the A64 can be hair-raising at the best of times, even for those of us with experience. So they could include lessons on such roads (being non motorway) in the present syllabus, and driving on the M1 will seem like childs play to a new driver.

[doubleyeller]

Just to give you some idea of the sliproads on the A34, here is the Highclere one:

Screenshot 2016-12-30 12.33.15.png

https://goo.gl/maps/5R1nYLma7Xu

 

Starts to the left of image, finished at the end of that truck. My driving instructor (who taught me in a 1.8D Fiesta) always told me on these ones to have a good look when going around that corner and if the coast isn't clear, just stop at the start of the sliproad. Unless you have a car with some go, there is no chance you'll be at a decent speed before the end. Admittedly that the asthmatic non-turbo diesel could only manage a maximum of 30mph from a dead stop at that slip road start...

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about in my post - and can be lethal if you suddenly have something pull out in front of you at low speed!

[M'coli]

Try doing that on Junction 35 on the M1, you'd be doing over a hundred before you hit the carriageway...

I used to do that in my standard-engined Imp - it never got to the ton, even on that sliproad!

[chodweaver]

Bear in mind that a lot of driving instructors are not fully qualified. The government realised some years ago how much of a shortfall of instructors there was and in their wisdom* subbed the whole training thing out to profiteering wankers like Red, who treat wannabe instructors as some sort of free resource - cannon fodder. It costs about 3k to go through the training program to become an instructor, and the training for 'how to conduct a driving lesson' is rather limited. A trainee instructor is supposed to get their training to be an instructor by er... working as an instructor for a qualified driving instructor (usually this is a big driving school like Red, the AA etc.) So they are earning money for that driving school while they are a trainee. If they do not pass parts 2 and 3 of the instructor exams within 2 years, they can no longer work as a driving instructor. To have another crack at it, they have to cough up another 3 grand and start again from scratch...

 

Does this start to sound like extortion - a way to get cheap labour from semi qualified people to teach other people how to drive? After Mrs CW went through this process, I lost a lot of confidence in the way the government (and all its 'agencies') go about maintaining standards, even in something as important as ensuring new drivers are correctly trained. I would cite the above scheme as the major cause of driving school cars turning up in the most dangerous situations with neither the pupil nor the trainee instructor having much of a clue... Imagine you're learning to fly a plane, and on your second lesson you're in a plane with one stick but two sets of rudder pedals, in a stack over Heathrow and your instructor is themselves a trainee...

 

I couldn't be and don't want to be a driving instructor. It's stressful, mentally demanding work and not particularly lucrative, especially if you are contracted to a bunch like Red (you might be getting the impression I don't like them or their MO. I don't. They're aunts). The responsibility a driving instructor bears is enormous. A conscientious driving instructor will make sure a newly qualified driver gets at least one hour of instruction in motorway driving (if they live in an area with motorways, or expect to be driving on them), whether or not they sign up for the PassPlus scheme. That's what Mrs CW does. We argue regularly about driving, but damn, I wish that everyone who learns to drive got the quality of instruction that she delivers, I can't fault it.

 

So yes, motorway driving should be more than icing on the cake of driving lessons, though in many parts of the country it's not practical. But the hazard perception bit is done in a simulation, so perhaps this could be handled that way too for non-motorway areas.

[Ghosty]

This in inevitable as many local authorities reduce all speed limits by 10-20mph

 

Edited for local experience.

[sierraman]

I cannot see how these driving schools make money, I really can't. I saw one a few weeks back, top and bottom of it was £15 an hour, which sounds ok, but deduct fuel, cost of financing the car, advertising, insurance etc and you'd be as well working in Asda.

 

I feel for your position if you are a driving instructor as you must price yourself at a rate you find provides an acceptable return, only to find the bottom feeders arrive on the market charging a silly rate that nobody in their right mind would work for.

[DSdriver]

What about night driving? Not required tuition but for someone taught to drive in that London, once they run out of pavements and street lights they are clueless, especially if it is raining. I used to hate having to get a cab home from the city to where I live in rural Kent when I worked late. It was even preferable to catch the pisshead special last train which stopped at every station and had drunks being sick in every carriage.

[willswitchengage]

I cannot see how these driving schools make money, I really can't. I saw one a few weeks back, top and bottom of it was £15 an hour, which sounds ok, but deduct fuel, cost of financing the car, advertising, insurance etc and you'd be as well working in Asda.

 

I feel for your position if you are a driving instructor as you must price yourself at a rate you find provides an acceptable return, only to find the bottom feeders arrive on the market charging a silly rate that nobody in their right mind would work for.

 

Bill Plant have gone and bought loads of BMW 1-series for learners. Before they had Audi A3s. I learned in a Corsa C...

 

At the end of the day fewer and fewer British youngsters are learning to drive anyway as they're all preferring urban life (including me, 26, who lives in a city and basically doesn't drive now).

[Pillock]

I looked at being a driving instructor years ago. I think days filled with driving through the sunny countryside, a smiley 18 year old lass by my side, raking in the cash appealed. I sat down and did the maths and decided it was all bollocks. This was about the time Red started up.

 

My mum's neighbour's lad trained with and worked for Red, he jacked it in as soon as his minimum period was up. He was pretty much doing 12 hour days just to get by, thanks to Red oversaturating and putting at least three other instructors in the town, he was ending up taking 3 hours to do a 1 hour lesson after he'd gone miles out of town to get business. So suddenly he's on £4 an hour or something....