Truck Shite

[gordonbennet]

I totally agree with this - however it does appear in the Bath case that they were spending money on stuff like vanity registration plates and not on brake maintenance, so although over-reliance on brakes might have had a role, they'd have been OK if anyone had been looking after them properly. 

 

What i was more getting at, if a driver taught to drive a lorry like a lorry uses the service brakes only to assist the exhaust or other auxilliary brake then even with the most shagged brakes this tragedy, and others, could so easily be averted.

In no way meant to take away mitigate or excuse any blame that might be coming the way of the operator or the bloke supposed to be inspecting and servicing the motors.

[gordonbennet]

I think you'll find that most modern trucks are some form of automatic.

 

Yes mine is too sadly, but i drive it in manual at all times, to be fair for a standard exhaust brake the MAN (so long as you keep the revs well up) is good, very seldom do i use the service brakes for anything other than bringing the vehicle to a final halt from about 15 mph, though as with all things the exhaust brake does need adjustment roughly once a year, easy to tell when cos you start to find it isn't holding speed on certain regular hills in certain gears.

 

Most lorries with auto boxes can be driven in manual, OK some are better than others in auto, Volvos you don't need to because the 3 stage retarder is bloody superb and the gearbox is always in the right gear anyway, but Scania are much better driven manually for retarding, and any make fitted with Arsetronic benefits from manual input at all times, very few fleets have the manual option programmed out and my opinion of any TM that specs delete manual override option is unprintable.

[AMC Rebel]

Does anyone still use those electric retarders they used to have on coaches?

[worldofceri]

I took my C test in 2008 in Abingdon.  Still yet to get around to doing CE...

 

Didn't know the gear change exercise is no longer in the test, nor that you can upgrade your auto lorry licence to manual by post!

 

ALL AUTO TRUKZ R SHIT.

[gordonbennet]

Auto test for manual licence has to be the biggest piss take of the lot.

Apparently we're short of drivers, sorry, licence holders, so we'll dumb the test down so any bugger who can steer a wheel can pass it, brilliant idea Rupert here have a knighthood.

 

The problem being there are many decent new pass drivers out there who want to learn their trade, but this auto pass for manual ticket is diminishing the true value of their licence, coupled with the eternal deskilling of the real job, it's ruining the job for proper lorry drivers who never asked for their job to be deskilled.

Not so long ago i was worried about retiring, i've done the job for 40 years, got 5 years left before i can retire and it can't come soon enough, my big regret is that i finish my working life as a steering wheel operative because any fool can jump in my lorry select D press the loud pedal and go, thats not how it was when i started out and dumbing the job down only helps attract dummies who shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a bloody lorry, we see shining examples of them every day.

What pisses me off most is the companies can't see what they are doing to their own operations by going along with it all.

Gah.

[gordonbennet]

So where did everyone else take their truck tests? Both of mine were at Simonswood in Kirkby, home of the infamous 'Ted's Bend', a 90 degree corner where you had to position yourself blind in the middle of a tree lined road. I was lucky as both my tests were in spring or autumn so I had the luxury of being able to look for oncoming traffic. Oddly enough I had the same examiner for both tests, a lady called Donna which was ironic as I had a female instructor as well for my class 2.

 

Took mine at Leighton Buzzard in 76, eff me i'm bloody old.

 

Bloke who instructed me was a chap called Jimmy Morrison, dapper little Scot who apparently won lorry driver of the year several times before becoming a trainer (so the other instructors mentioned), company was Export and General, also hauliers in their own right, he taught old school, but then he had the time cos a straight to artic course then was 10 days for £296 all in IIRC.

None of this simple reverse shit with Jimmy, he laid a series of cones to drive through forwards zig zagging etc, and you weren't competent to drive a lorry till you could reverse back through 'em, his no nonsense teaching stood me in good stead and i am  eternally grateful to him.

 

Examiner was my worst nightmare, everyone said about this ex Battle of Britain pilot examiner who took no prisoners, course i got him.

In practice he was a charming man and passed me for some reason.

[AMC Rebel]

Auto test for manual licence has to be the biggest piss take of the lot.

Apparently we're short of drivers, sorry, licence holders, so we'll dumb the test down so any bugger who can steer a wheel can pass it, brilliant idea Rupert here have a knighthood.

 

The problem being there are many decent new pass drivers out there who want to learn their trade, but this auto pass for manual ticket is diminishing the true value of their licence, coupled with the eternal deskilling of the real job, it's ruining the job for proper lorry drivers who never asked for their job to be deskilled.

Not so long ago i was worried about retiring, i've done the job for 40 years, got 5 years left before i can retire and it can't come soon enough, my big regret is that i finish my working life as a steering wheel operative because any fool can jump in my lorry select D press the loud pedal and go, thats not how it was when i started out and dumbing the job down only helps attract dummies who shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a bloody lorry, we see shining examples of them every day.

What pisses me off most is the companies can't see what they are doing to their own operations by going along with it all.

Gah.

 

I was asking my mate about this the other day.  He took his Class 1 (as it was then) in the early 80s - although he's had a totally different career - it was partly to impress his Dad as his Dad wasn't that taken with his 1st Class Degree with honours (!).

 

I was sure the standards had dropped - on both artics and busses, evidenced (as I imagine) by the need to occupy more road space to make turns at junctions than is actually needed.  

 

He wasn't so so sure - and of course, trailers are longer and artics are bigger heavier and more powerful than they were.

[Vantman]

I took my Class 1 in 1971,Bedford TK with a 28ft single axle trailer,i failed at the first attempt for being too cautious at roundabouts but passed the second time as the examiner wanted to get back for lunch so we only done about two thirds of the route.

I retired seven years ago and certainly wouldn't want to be driving for a living now.I can't remember when I last saw a sheeted and roped load!

[scruff]

I passed both tests in manual lorries, but the training firm I used have I believe gone fully auto now. Took both tests in Peterborough.

 

Many years of riding shotgun with experienced 'old hands' have left me firmly in the camp of making the most of the engine/exhaust brake and gearbox for slowing down. The two stage jake brake in our ERF, was just the bollox - plan ahead properly and you'd go for miles without touching the foot brake, flipping marvellous.  I was always told with low loaders to imagine you were driving with no chains or straps on the load - stood me in good stead so far.

 

Mine's a 16 speed manual but she is gonna have to go soon.... or maybe just be retired from the front line, after 8 years it owes us sod all and generally has been a damn good truck (480bhp Daf 95 XF).

[AMC Rebel]

I took my Class 1 in 1971,Bedford TK with a 28ft single axle trailer,i failed at the first attempt for being too cautious at roundabouts but passed the second time as the examiner wanted to get back for lunch so we only done about two thirds of the route.

I retired seven years ago and certainly wouldn't want to be driving for a living now.I can't remember when I last saw a sheeted and roped load!

 

Ha - I went with my mate to the old lorry show and there was an 8 wheeler rigid Scammell with a roped and sheeted load.  Although we both agreed that ratchet straps are a wonderful invention.

[Cavcraft]

I'm sure a lot of fools could select 'D' and hit the loud pedal, but don't forget there are people like me who can't reverse with a trailer to save their lives. I'd possibly consider a Class 2 (or whatever stupid arsed name they are now) but I also couldn't be arsed with that digi card bollocks.

[AMC Rebel]

I'm sure a lot of fools could select 'D' and hit the loud pedal, but don't forget there are people like me who can't reverse with a trailer to save their lives. I'd possibly consider a Class 2 (or whatever stupid arsed name they are now) but I also couldn't be arsed with that digi card bollocks.

 

I also can't reverse a trailer for toffee.

 

Digi card wouldn't worry me too much - but the CPC does seem like a total load of arse to an outsider like me.  At risk of opening old wounds - is that CPC bollocks from the EU, or is it homegrown toss?

[gordonbennet]

Shitting hell, The Bath Chronicle has been following the case.

Seems the exhaust brake wasn't working, plus brake defects and tacho analysis is showing some serious speed so talk of cooked brakes before the main hill descent, plus deliberately on a 6ft width limit road with no access situation.

It aint making good reading.

 

CPC is an EU wide load of bollocks.

Very first session i attended about 5 years ago i had to have a pop at the trainer (he reckoned he was a lorry driving instructor too), he kept going on and on and on about how good lorry brakes are now (yes they are compared to years ago when we had to carry a 9/16ths ring to keep our own trailer brakes nipped up) so brakes to slow gears to go was it.

 

By the umpteenth time he quoted this mantra i'd had a bellyful, so asked him about a theoretical young chap he taught to drive who the next day gets a job driving a 44 ton artic tipper in the dales of Derbyshire, how on a 2 mile descent into a village how our young driver would be quite safe on the brakes more or less alone...yes he would i was informed...so i asked what would happen when nearing the village at the bottom of the hill if the yellow service airline broke...he hadn't got an answer save some waffle about how firms like Stobart would teach their drivers more practical stuff, more bollocks, my company never used that training outfit again.

 

For those who are not lorryists, the yellow service line supplies air to the trailer to apply the brakes, if the yellow line snaps then you have effectively (some of the latest EBS systems might apply the brakes by digi signal, assuming everything is modern and fully working) no trailer brakes and now are stopping solely on the tractor brakes.

Its not a good situation to be in, but a properly trained driver would not have been using the service brakes at all if possible, as a rule of thumb he would have been in the same gear he would have needed to ascend the hill with the engine at high but safe revs using the exhaust or other auxilliary brake to control the speed...then if the yellow line burst our driver is in an emergency with cold brakes at a controllable speed, not with brakes already cooking in the wrong gear entirely and in a runaway situation without a bloody prayer.

 

 

This is so wrong on so many levels, a new driver should be able to trust an instructor to teach them right, when it's as plain as the nose on your clock that it aint happening, yes i know the sylabus as such may not be in an individual trainer's remit to alter, but if something is so blatantly bollocks and gears to go brakes to slow is bollocks in lorry world, then trainers and training companies should find the balls to stand up get together and raise a bloody stink with people who can get things altered, because whilst they don't they bear some moral responsibility for the actions of poorly trained unlorry drivers that are coming through.

 

Sorry to go on about this, boring the fuck outa most of you i have no doubt and i can only apologise, but its summat i feel passionate about because new drivers are paying good money for their training and in all honesty they are being taught to pass a bloody test not to drive a lorry in too many cases, and this reliance upon autos and one size fits all method is just not on.

[DodgeRover]

Speaking to an Aussie mate he said that they regularly reverse the road trains - I had asked if they could lock the fifth wheel to keep the buggers in line but apparently it's all down to practise.....the one time I tried reversing multiple trailers was a little Hino box with a dolly trailer and a caravan hitched on the back of that all I can say is that it's a good job the showgrounds were big and empty!!!

 

 

The gears to slow bit was how I was taught to drive by family starting with tractors and progressing to cars, then I had to have some proper lessons and was told not to do it on my test as you didn't need to in modern vehicles..

[catsinthewelder]

That's been sat about a while, last taxed August '85 - what was on the back as it's MOT exempted? Ex showmans or something?

 

It was in a skip fabricators yard with an empty chassis behind the cab.

[Inspector Morose]

While we're on the subject of brakes, a quick heads up to all the lorryists who think cutting in front of a bus on the motorway then braking for obstructions is a good thing/okay/a right laugh. Look. You have six axles of brakes and 12 or so tyres/contact points with the road to slow you and your X tonnes down if you just use your brakes. Meanwhile soft shit here only has two axles of brakes and six contact points to slow my 12 or so tonnes from crashing into your arse. I am not going to be able to stop as quickly as you.

[warren t claim]

I'm sure a lot of fools could select 'D' and hit the loud pedal, but don't forget there are people like me who can't reverse with a trailer to save their lives. I'd possibly consider a Class 2 (or whatever stupid arsed name they are now) but I also couldn't be arsed with that digi card bollocks.

Right then. Reversing a car and caravan/Halfords £299 trailer is much more difficult than reversing an articulated Class1 truck trailer combo. A bendy wagon is surprisingly docile and forgiving going backwards. Plenty of times I've had to reverse a super long Class 2 rigid and wished it was an artic.

[DodgeRover]

Almost anything is easier to reverse than those tiny 4'x3' trailers - I'm guessing it's the distance between the pivot point and the axle.

[chaseracer]

Almost anything is easier to reverse than those tiny 4'x3' trailers...

 

Quicker and easier to unhitch the bloody thing and turn it round by hand.

[dollywobbler]

I found the car trailer far easier to reverse than the caravan, mostly because twin axles mean a lot more resistance to turning, which makes it far less likely to snake out of control. With a single axle, you have to predict what's going to happen, and react before it starts heading the wrong way. Pain in the arse.

 

As for slowing a vehicle, I will ALWAYS use the gears to slow, with braking. When I was becoming a MiDAS trainer, I'm afraid I did fall out with the trainer over this. How many gearboxes have I worn out through using the gears? None! (though I did break the 2CV's gearbox by downshifting to second at too high a speed at the first Retro Rides Gathering...). I get terrified watching people brake constantly down a hill too, and that's just in cars and vans. "Brakes to slow," is fine until you cook the bloody things. I'm guessing most people don't think this could possibly happen - or don't know that brakes get hot.

 

Nice (well, not nice exactly) to have some more facts about that tipper case. I guess the CPS have a pretty good case here. We'll see...

[AMC Rebel]

Bloke who used to own my Chevy (drum brakes all round, no servo, single circuit) said the fade was so bad that the front would dip when first applied, but it you carried on braking too long, it gracefully rose again as the front drums got too hot and faded.

 

But you try and tell the young people of today that and......etc

[gordonbennet]

My 71 Mustang was like that, drums all round no servo, any stop from 3 figures (which it got to bloody quick) was accompanied by massive shaking though to be fair it always stopped.

[worldofceri]

Mustard Mitt, my wagon normally does smell a bit 'hot' when I arrive at my drop near St Austell having just come down a massive hill (on the A390 into St Blazey).

 

Incidentally, I wonder why the escape lane is only about a third of the way down, whereas you're more likely to need it further on if you're going to avoid slamming into a queue of traffic waiting at the level crossing.

[Vantman]

Volvo F86 and F88 had a very useful 'dead man' trailer brake which came in useful on long descents providing the trailer brakes were up to the job. Ten minutes spent nipping up the slack adjusters before you left usually helped,but not always.

[gordonbennet]

Volvo F86 and F88 had a very useful 'dead man' trailer brake which came in useful on long descents providing the trailer brakes were up to the job. Ten minutes spent nipping up the slack adjusters before you left usually helped,but not always.

 Had similar on Scania 110/111's, second handle that operated the trailer brakes only nothing else.

 

9/16th ring and small hammer part of a driver's kit in those days, which i had to re-use again in the 90's when i went onto car transporters, the standard 9/10 car lorry and drag trailer was on 16/17" wheels with obviously really small drums, it was a weekly adjust up with those.

Place i worked at in my early days on transporters was a right cowboy outfit, i started off with an ex Toleman Iveco 10 car cake stand bodied wagon and drag, it was a shit heap, i asked bodgit and scarper in the workshops one day when it was due for service...he looked at me like i'd asked to have a leg over his mum...''we don't service them'' in incredulous tones...s'fine i kept the oil topped up removed the air filter which weighed about 50lbs and chucked it in the skip cos it was full of the shit of the previous 5 years and just carried on, learned the trade and fucked off to pastures anew.

 

Cowboy outfits still slip through the net, probably always will.

[simmo]

[Split_Pin]

The mention of the yellow service brake line to the trailer has got me thinking, why don't they have brakes like the tractor unit which lock in when there's no air?

 

I remember being sent under many a trailer to ratchet on the handbrake before the unit uncoupled but never questioned this at the time, even though I knew no air=brakes locked on.

[bigstraight6]

Right then. Reversing a car and caravan/Halfords £299 trailer is much more difficult than reversing an articulated Class1 truck trailer combo. A bendy wagon is surprisingly docile and forgiving going backwards. Plenty of times I've had to reverse a super long Class 2 rigid and wished it was an artic.

Agreed, I've been driving class 1 for about 16 months now and after the initial week that it took me to get the reversing bit it just clicked and it's just so easy. I still do the odd shift in a rigid and have not lost the skill to reverse them either but much prefer driving arctics, much easier.....

[willswitchengage]

I am always intrigued about the effectiveness of engine braking systems on large vehicles. Extreme examples: 

 

A large displacement motorcycle will have dissipative losses from 1 litre of rotating mass to slow down something 200 kg

An articulated lorry will have dissipative losses from 13 litres of rotating mass to slow down something 44,000 kg

 

The displacement to mass ratio of the motorbike is ~20 x that of an artic. My point is that any motosicklers will know that if they let go of the throttle they will be practically thrown from the bike due to the phenomenal engine braking effect in such a light vehicle. In an HGV, the comparative displacement is far smaller and therefore let go of the throttle and you'll generally still plod along as the rate at which is the engine braking consumes the vehicle's huge momentum is much lower. How to active engine braking systems in UK vehicles even work? I thought Jake-brakes were banned due to noise restrictions over here.

 

Incidentally, stopping something 300 tonnes from 150 mph will always be tricky...

 

[gordonbennet]

The mention of the yellow service brake line to the trailer has got me thinking, why don't they have brakes like the tractor unit which lock in when there's no air?

 

I remember being sent under many a trailer to ratchet on the handbrake before the unit uncoupled but never questioned this at the time, even though I knew no air=brakes locked on.

 

Modern spring brakes do lock when air is lost,  that's the red line, the red line blows the brakes off the yellow line applies them.

Red line comes off it stops dead, i had a 70mph empty trailer lock up on the M1 in the 80's when the air line connector (cheap shit they were buying at the time) seperated, cue 8 threepenny bit scrap tyres..the black lines on the road took about a month to wear off.

 

Those old trailers with the ratchet parking brake were not normally spring brakes, when air drains out the brakes release, and the sensible driver pumped some air into the chambers before attempting to pick one up, nine times out of ten the cable ratchet brake only worked for the MOT test.

I have a tale of woe if anyone's interested in more of my waffle about one twat who didn't check before attempting a pick up.

 

 

Talking of old school.

 

When i were a bit younger we used to have a three line braking system, red and yellow were still emergency and service lines, but there was also a blue line, that was for the secondary (Dead Mans Handle) brake...if the yellow line burst you still had full control of the trailer brakes via the DMH.

The Dead Man is not the same as the trailer only brake mentioned above which Scanias had.

In use the Dead Man would operate the tractor steering axle and all trailer brakes, this was in thee days before ABS was thought of, and it was the theory that in the event of a jack knife starting (tractor drive axle locked) that the switched on driver would quickly release the footbrake, allow the vehicle to straighten up and then apply the dead man...in reality a jack knife is violent and sudden, you can recover from it but you'll need some room to roll on and then stop again.

Some designs had a sepaetate DMH in some others it was incorporated into the intial application of the parking brake, so you'd pull the parking brake on whcih was the dead man part, then often you'd flick the handle round a gate which locked the parking brake in the normal way, most lorries didn't apply the trailer brakes when the parking brake was applied and that is still the case today.

 

My first artic, a 'Mickey Mouse' Foden didn't have an air parking brake at all it had a brake drum on the back of the diff, LandRover style and you applied that with a normal handbrake lever, it did however have a seperate Dead Man...no power fuckin steering either i had muscles on me muscles back then heaving that sod around.

 

The three line braking system was discontinued because...

A it was better and if it aint broke we fix* it sharpish in this country,  in the event of a broken air line you had another way of applying the trailer brakes.

B because it was British and the continentals used a two line system (poorer) so again being good old sporting Brits we standardised to their inferior system.

 

We standardised to tachos too before that, before tacho came in we worked a 12.5 hour maximum working day, then we gained safety by harmonising with europe and gained a 15 hour working day, there much better.