Pug/Cit/Ford 1.6 Dizzlers

[Hendry]

Not strictly shite, more shit than anything but you guys seem to know your stuff so is the 1.6 TDCI engine in modern Fords really as a bad as it's made out to be?

 

Story goes something like this: dads a taxi driver, current steed was a 2009 '09' VW Jetta 2.0 CR TDI Sport 140bhp, 145,000 miles. Owned since August 2012 and 38,000 miles. It's catastrophically gone wrong, new clutch and DMF a month ago (£750) new diesel pump, a wheel bearing (complete new hub) new heater motor, plus a load of other daft little bits, for a couple of years now it's randomly come up on the dash "engine fault - garage" when on the motorway accelerating and seems laggy, but will maintain speed, turning it off and back on resumes normal service and it doesn't do it again for months, it's been on a diagnostic machine and nothing coming up. The dreaded DPF light came on a few months ago coupled with being sluggish so we did the regen as per owners handbook instructions and everything fine. It then came back on recently but wouldn't regen this time, so my dad bought these bottles of Diesel engine cleaner that gets dumped into the fuel tank and it cleared, warning light still on dash but full power again and seemed to blow fucktonnes of black smoke out the back but days later it lost power again, this time along with DPF warning light the EML light came on along with the "coil light" flashing (one that resembles the glow plug light on old diesels) and it now comes up "engine fault garage!" And "diesel particle filter" every time it's started. It went to a diesel specialist garage who say there's nothing wrong with the DPF itself but the car thinks there is and they don't know how to fix it, seemingly it will clear the codes, says there is 47grams of soot in the DPF and will start a regen and the soot figure will go to about 45g and then goes back to 47g again. All they can suggest is ripping the innards of the DPF out but leave the outside so it looks like the DPF is still there and remap the car to tell it it doesn't have a DPF and this will give it full power back and clear all the dash warning lights. I want to figure out what's actually wrong though but that's another story.

 

Anyway as the cars now 7 years old and taxi plate expired even if it was to get fixed it cannot be replated (council rules the car must be under 5 years old for a new plate, but if it's already plated providing the test hasn't expired you can use upto 10years old before having to replace the car) so we had to go and look at new ones, looked at all sorts from Octavia, Rapid, Superb, Passat, Seat Toledo, Toyota Avensis, Kia Optima, Hyundai I40, Mazda 6, etc.

 

Eventually we settled on a 2013 '63' Ford Mondeo 1.6 TDCi Econetic Titanium X Business Edition Start/Stop. Ever since I've read nothing but horror stories about how crap and fragile this engine is and how prone to major faults it is, some suggest it was sorted out by 2011 and all the stories of unreliability relate to the older version. There's the odd story which says because it's a PSA diesel it's wonderful but in my experience French stuff isn't known for its reliability, anyone got any experience of this engine?

[sierraman]

You're right in saying that improvements were made by 2011, but time will tell. There's probably hundreds of thousands of this engine out there so they can't all be failing. The problem was people serviced them every 20k or 3 years whichever came first...

 

If it's serviced regular and the oil kept spotless it should be ok. Be mindful though if the turbo goes the warranty will insist on almost a full rebuild to avoid it reoccurring. I think if you can keep on top of servicing it you should be fine.

 

If I were to have a diesel, it'd be a PSA unit it a Honda. I wouldn't have anything else.

[Bren]

If it were mine it would be oil change every 6k - neglect it at your peril.

[Hendry]

My old man is the type who never services cars, he never even really uses garages, always gets someone he knows to fix them, it gets motd and taxi tested by the council and whatever it needs it gets then, or if something is obviously needing doing like loud bangs or knocks from the suspension or grinding brakes or a warning light on the dash, he's only ever serviced one car correctly and that was only because it was under manufacturer warranty and I worked at the dealers and got half price on everything.

 

I've told him the service interval is 12,500 on these and to do it on time. It's done 51,557 miles and was serviced by Ford at 12,849. 25,415 and then at 51,557 when we got it so has missed a service but it's one of those high spec ones with Ford "Convers+" so I assume it will tell us in no uncertain terms when it wants serviced.

[Asimo]

Teach him how to change the oil and convince him to do it half way between services or if he won't, tell him forget Diesels and buy a Prius.

[sierraman]

Annoyingly the Prius is irritatingly reliable, even 10-15 year old ones keep taxing. The petrol engine is fairly unstressed and the motor isn't going to wear out. Can see the battery replacement on these being a big business in future though.

 

£30 for a DIY oil change every six months is a good plan. Btw Ford specifically mention not to use vacuum extraction for oil swaps on these.

[Cavcraft]

I've heard enough from people I trust/ITK about these to put me off them for life.

[fordperv]

If it were mine it would be oil change every 6k - neglect it at your peril.

this is the best bit of advice I have ever read, long service intervals have alot to answer for, when i worked in parts we wouldn't sell people turbo's without oil lines etc we only sold them as a "kit"

[Bren]

When I started driving I changed the oil every 3 k on my cars.

 

Nowadays with modern oils I do it every 6k - If I have a service at a garage I then change it again six months later.

 

I have never had an engine failure or had to sell because the engine was goosed.

[cort16]

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I've heard enough from people I trust/ITK about these to put me off them for life.

 

Exactly - why would you take the risk?

[ShiteRider]

We've a '57 partner as a parts hauler, had it from 4k, needed an engine at 58k. That's with 5k oil changes, started with knackered turbo that got replaced with a recon which lasted a week. Gaffa kicked off with the turbo people, turns out oil pump had next to no pressure and was starving the turbo.

We bought a low mileage berlingo that'd been smacked up the arse for the engine. Touch wood it's lasted 6k so far, if it goes again it's bridge bound.

[gordonbennet]

Visit assuredperformance.ie website, click on link at bottom left of page entitled carbon build up in 1.6HDi PSA engine, enjoy reassuring yourself how good this modern shit is.

 

The thing with these modern bloody common rail Diesels is that the soddin injectors are inside the engine, not screwed/clamped in the head from outside like an alternative spark plug as they used to be (so any leakage you'd hear and see quickly), so if and when the injector seals start leaking, not only do you get fuel injected into the engine, you get combustion blow by which soon fucks everything with carbon...this problem destroyed a number of pre 2008 3 litre D4D Toyota engines in Landcruiser/Hilux, so its not just PSA or VW who fuck up...mind you Toyota have been very very generous with goodwill re failures, as one might expect from an honourable company.

 

Oh yeah 20,000 mile oil changes, cunts...asked the MAN mechanic what the interval is on my lorry, 70k!! ok that kms so about 42k miles WCPGW

[hairnet]

Got one of these in a 14 connect

 

45k at Xmas now on 71k

 

Had two services

 

Gets breasted everywhere not had a problem

[Hendry]

Don't suppose while we are on the subject to save me starting another topic if anyone has any idea what the fuck is wrong with the heap of junk VAG? It's been left up to me to sort it and get shot of it as my dad wasn't keen on the £200 trade in value offered by the Ford dealer who class it as a non runner even though it runs and drives, coupled with declared taxi/private hire use after the amount of money he's sunk into it recently.

[SiC]

I reckon a Prius too. There is a reason why these are very popular cabs on the west coast. 

 

Auto-box so more pleasurable driving experience when in stop-start traffic that blights our roads nowadays. Petrol, so very quiet and smooth. Hybrid, so no ridiculous fuel economy despite being a petrol hybrid. Low speeds no engine at all - so even quieter. Especially nicer waiting in the taxi ranks, where you can sit with the engine off, and then shift forwards when the one in front moves without having to wait for the engine to startup every time and flatten the battery. Also this means less wear on the engine too.

 

These things seem to be easily able to get silly miles really easy. Typical Toyota, building some advanced, clever powertrain - yet making it pretty unburstable. Point in case, there is 1 spares or repairs on eBay that I can find - spare or repairs because the Engine Light is on because the Cat efficiency below threshold and has been for the last 2 years (which most shitters/taxi drivers would be ignoring anyway).

 

I reckon if your dad is lax on maintenance, the 1.6 HDi could be a massive recipe for disaster.

[dollywobbler]

I think what particularly kills these engines is people failing to change the oil regularly, then caning it down a motorway, turning it off when hot at which point all the manky crap in the oil solidifieds in the turbo oil feed pipes. I do know plenty of these that have done major mileage, but I've also heard enough horror stories to ensure I'll never go near one.

[SiC]

Don't suppose while we are on the subject to save me starting another topic if anyone has any idea what the fuck is wrong with the heap of junk VAG? It's been left up to me to sort it and get shot of it as my dad wasn't keen on the £200 trade in value offered by the Ford dealer who class it as a non runner even though it runs and drives, coupled with declared taxi/private hire use after the amount of money he's sunk into it recently.

The DPF differential pressure sensor giving out silly values? It uses it to measure the difference in pressure between the inlet and outlet of the DPF - to determine how full the DPF is. It could have not failed completely and stuck at some weird intermediate state, that the DPF is half full (or similar). If stuck, then a EML is unlikely to be thrown. The one on my parents A4 happened to fail completely, but entirely plausible that your dads has failed stuck at the wrong pressure.

 

I suspect that, if it is stuck in state that the pressure being read, that the car is registering that its semi-filled DPF. However the car knows its done xx miles over when it really should have done a regen - so kicks one off anyway (probably limping in limp mode because of it). As stuck at a constant state, the sensor is telling it that its not making any difference - which the car is then moaning about. Because the re-gen is actually happening, it could be burning off all the soot everytime and thus not clogging up totally.

 

However if too many regens have been performed, it could have also burnt the insides of the DPF too - which has caused the now problems.

 

Have you had a genuine VAG-COM try read the error codes off?

[SiC]

It could also be as simple as that the pressure differential sensor is full of crud! A quick google sees people spraying air dusters into the ports on VAG differential pressure sensors to flush out the crap. Might be a bit violent on the delicate insides though.

 

But then people spray all sorts of stuff into/onto MAF sensors and get away with it!

[Timewaster]

It is a "bloke in a pub" story but i was told once that the sump bung isn't/wasn't at the bottom of the sump allowing sludge to build up and block the oil pick up.

[Kiltox]

I don't touch them as a rule - any that come in PX go straight to auction

[cort16]

The long interval oil service seems to be an issue but you can't blame your normal punter who buys one for following the manufacturer defined service intervals.  My Juke has 18k intervals. I bought a service pack when I got the car. so my services have been paid for up front. Am I going to spend an extra 60 quid changing the oil between intervals when I know I'm not going to own it in 12 months? No.

[jonathan_dyane]

My old man is the type who never services cars, he never even really uses garages, always gets someone he knows to fix them, it gets motd and taxi tested by the council and whatever it needs it gets then, or if something is obviously needing doing like loud bangs or knocks from the suspension or grinding brakes or a warning light on the dash, he's only ever serviced one car correctly and that was only because it was under manufacturer warranty and I worked at the dealers and got half price on everything.

 

I've told him the service interval is 12,500 on these and to do it on time. It's done 51,557 miles and was serviced by Ford at 12,849. 25,415 and then at 51,557 when we got it so has missed a service but it's one of those high spec ones with Ford "Convers+" so I assume it will tell us in no uncertain terms when it wants serviced.

I hate to say it but it sounds like he'll kill it in record time.

[Frogchod]

Been looking at the new Mk3 Jumpy/Dispatch/Expert just the other week. Service intervals now 40000 Km  ! 

Also 1.6 vans here are dirt cheap, 2.0 vans are expensive......

[beko1987]

Blimey those service intervals. I feel bad that the meriva done nearly 7k without an oil change... (bub did the xantia nearly 3k ago so that can wait until after crimbo)

[Hendry]

The Jetta has been to a Diesel engine specialist with a good reputation up here, you'd think they would've checked DPF pressure sensors etc. The bill was £550 and it's no better than when t went in, the guy at the diesel specialist says he cleared the codes, took it a run and the warning lights didn't come back on, seemed like the regen was working and the car had full power but it cleaned the DPF only slightly then the soot content went back up to 47g which it won't go above and it will go to about 44/45 and then goes back up to 47 again.

 

I don't know a lot about it but I'm told it keeps blowing a turbo hose off, it drives like a N/A diese because of all the warning lights.

[SiC]

You'd hope. My experience is that far too many garages have little idea on automotive electronics and treat too much like a mysterious black box.

 

Every modern VAG product I've seen, when they throw a code, will keep that code stored even if the light goes off. In fact a lot of them (certainly a lot of the Audi's post ~2008) even record the time and date it triggered. I suspect they're using a generic code reader, or a multi model one but in EOBD generic mode. To get the most info you need a proper VAG code reader such as a VAG-COM.

[Pillock]

Mine had an oil changes and major service at the dealer on the dot, long motorway miles up to temp without being thrashed..... and it still shat itself. Admittedly not the turbo, but the EGR valve failed, dumped a load of clag in the DPF, overpressured it, blew a pipe and spent weeks backwards and forwards to the dealer. I've got a whole photo album of it on various AA trucks. Got rid of it to a WBAC-style place who didn't test drive it for long enough to turn the warning lights on.

 

Just don't. It's like asking if a hungry leopard might just be misunderstood, and actually you'll let it in to your house so it can sleep on your pillow.

[scaryoldcortina]

I know garages that spent 2k plus on the latest snap on modus but still call me for anything a generic EOBD scan can't detect.

[sierraman]

I half want one now.