Give us this day our daily Shite

[dollywobbler]

This comment struck a nerve. It was made by brookjm regarding his lovely Sierra estate.

 

 

 I do feel a bit guilty using it as my daily transport this time of year when it has survived so well.

 

I am beginning to find my desire to cherish shite is entirely at odds with my desire to have cheap, dependable transport that doesn't rust to oblivion. So, what are the solutions? Corrosion always seems to be the biggest issue. I can't afford to restore cars, but it seems entirely wrong to just drive them into the ground. After all, the crummy old motors we drive have had some good luck to last a decade or more. I don't want to be the one to turn that luck around.

 

Take BXs. I love them, but they're all getting on a bit now, with rot starting to strike in really nasty areas to repair - like the rear subframe mountings. Certainly not economical to repair that sort of damage. So could I bring myself to buy a nice one and still use it daily?

 

Even with the Sirion, which is relatively new (at a mere 15 years old) by my standards, is failing as a cheap car. Why? Because despite me acknowledging that it only has a few years left on this planet, I still feel the need to treat it to oil changes and thorough checks of its air con. I also spent considerable time bodging up the rear arches so they don't fall off. I R BANGERNOMICS FAYL.

 

So, what is the solution? Should I just accept that use will eventually destroy and that someone, somewhere is probably cherishing an example that will remain in the future? Or do I bow out of older vehicles in daily use, get a modern snotter and keep something shiny in the garage for the four days of summer?

 

 

[eddyramrod]

I find myself in almost exactly the same boat, Ian.  I proved what you said about use destroying older cars by running both my Granada and my Metro van as daily-drivers once they landed here; at 29 and 40 years old they were not happy and started to throw wobblies, usually involving brakes.  I should point out that I had been using my Granada for daily duties for the last ten or twelve weeks in Cyprus, simply because I had nothing else I could use!  I think the shock of English winter was just too much for them.

Like the Cherry and indeed several previous cars I've had, these were rather nice examples and I did worry that using them wasn't doing them any favours.  BUT: I'd much rather be using them than keeping them locked up in a shed, only to be hauled out on perfect days (when I'd probably be doing my double shift at work anyway).  However lovely a car is, it isn't art, it should be used.  By that I mean commuting, school run, nipping down the Co-op for some milk; normal life, as opposed to just MG Club Sunday jaunts.

[Shep Shepherd]

^

 

Indeed. Although The Volvo is a cherished second car nowadays, it still lives outside and I think nothing of driving it hundreds of miles in one go as I would TV2, as cars - especially old Volvos - are meant to be used, not kept locked away.

[rml2345]

This is a tough question and one that I ask myself quite often too. For any car to survive 20+ years is quite significant but I like using an older car and only being able to run one (currently) means that it gets used for everything and lives outside in all weathers. The thought of giving up and buying a modern fills me with sadness however as it just wouldn't be the same. You wouldn't get that warm feeling of beating the system for a start.
During the Autoshite period of a car's life I suppose any significant spending on an old snotter is going to look like bangernomics FAILZ so it really depends on how much you actually like it and wish to prolong it's lifespan. I totted up the figures for 15 months of old Volvo R&M and it would easily have bought another three cars at shitists prices but I've become fond of it so spent the cash to keep it going. It's the great flaw in the bangernomics plan as there's no contingency for becoming attached to whichever heap you're trying to justify spending on. The only solution is to spend it and accept that it's financial daftness.

What to do next though? Well... I agree with Eddy. Keeping a car pristine and using it for high days and holidays, particularly if it's useful or a good daily seems entirely at odds with what a car actually for. As long as it's maintained as best as you can and reasonably rust proofed and it should last long enough to become an appreciated classic and a desirable restoration candidate, or appeal to those who like having a classic for high days and holidays. 

 

Besides... ALL NU KARS R SHIT  

[Shep Shepherd]

During the Autoshite period of a car's life I suppose any significant spending on an old snotter is going to look like bangernomics FAILZ so it really depends on how much you actually like it and wish to prolong it's lifespan. I totted up the figures for 15 months of old Volvo R&M and it would easily have bought another three cars at shitists prices but I've become fond of it so spent the cash to keep it going. It's the great flaw in the bangernomics plan as there's no contingency for becoming attached to whichever heap you're trying to justify spending on. The only solution is to spend it and accept that it's financial daftness.

 

The Volvo (which was bought in part as a Bangernomics experiment - thanks, Mr. Ruppert!) has been uneconomical to repair on paper since 2005 or so, but due to the weirdness that is Old Volvo Economics and the fact that I love the thing to bits, it is still rolling, and will continue to do so for some time yet

[skattrd]

I have 2 Italian cars over 30yrs old and I use them when I want. They've made it this long and in my opinion leaving them standing does them no good, the brakes stick and they need work each time you want to use them.

That said I am selling the shinier of the two, it's too nice for me.

[eddyramrod]

 

Besides... ALL NU KARS R SHIT  

 

That's true.  I may have had old rubbish cars for most of my life, but in recent years there has been an element of choice involved... and I still buy old.  When we moved back here last year I had a rental for the first six weeks, a new-shape Vauxhall Meriva.  A what???? I didn't even know there was a new shape!  It was fairly comfy, well-sealed (the great advantage of a new car, IMHO) and efficient enough, but way too sophisticated.  I mean, electronic handbrake?  Fuck that right off!  Even now, I have one car from 2007 and one from 1996, and I much prefer the older one because the other just doesn't do anything special.  And that's after deliberately buying one with the biggest engine in that body, and a proper gearbox that does all the work for me!  1996 is too recent really, 1976 would be much better.  For me.

[Skizzer]

I R FAIL too.  The Rover 75 was supposed to be a pure working tool (cheaper than fitting a towbar to the Skoda), but I've grown fond of it and so keep doing uneconomic repairs.  It's really scruffy and has no history so it's worth less than the cost of four new door seals from Rimmers, but I'm buggered if I'm scrapping it because a bit of rubber needs replacing.  That's just wrong.  Forking out for seven hours labour for a cambelt change would be pushing it, mind, but I still might.

 

Other than that, if a car runs, I'll drive it.  Do need to sort out some more indoor storage though, since I've lost the use of the barn.

[vulgalour]

Regular and thorough maintenance is the key to prolonging the life of any old crock on a budget, at least from personal experience.  My budget is scarily meagre and the way I try to beat the entropy is to regularly check everything and be fastidious about cleaning.  Just keeping an elderly car clean seems to be vital to keeping rust from developing into truly scary things.

 

I reckon a car should be used, it's all well and good keeping them in a hermetically sealed bubble and some cars are so special and rare that this must be their sad fate, but other vehicles can just keep battling on.  The Princess is really a case in point as it's pretty old and arthritic and many have told me I shouldn't be using it daily because it will fall apart around me.  Sometimes I think the car is trying to do just that but I have a theory...

 

The Princess was used regularly up until 1997 when it was worth precisely -£297.50 and a drumstick lolly.  It was then restored and did, at best, 500 miles a year.  This RUINED it.  Almost no work was done to keep the car in good health and all I've done is fix problem after problem from the neglect of being a 'show car'.  It's rather telling that the history folder had more show plaques than MoT certificates.

 

So don't mothball a car unless it needs serious work.  Use it, maintain it and take care of it and if it does all go tits up at least you've got some use and enjoyment out of the old thing.

[cort16]

The bottom line is we're soft buggers when it comes to cars so even when we buy an old hack to tide us over it it inevitably worms its ways into out effections.

[dollywobbler]

I think storage is my biggest issue. A full-on garage doesn't work, as I won't put a car away wet. How this works in Wales is that the car is finally dry enough to put in the garage, and then won't come out for several weeks. I dislike owning cars I'm not actually driving!

 

Perhaps a car port would help - just to keep the worst of the weather off. 

[Micrashed]

Ian

 

The way I look at it is like this.

 

Run your car, enjoy it, cherish it a little bit - by that I mean maintain it, chance the oil, weld the bits that drop off back on, and treat it to a spray over with stone chip black.

 

Then in a few years sell it on to someone prepared to spend silly amounts of money "restoring it". Move on to the next common "Bangernomics" motor and do the same again.

 

The cars we love are approaching "cla$$ic territory. Most of us are not typical Cla$$ic owners in that we do not have ££££'s to throw at something wheeled out once in a white dog turd.

 

My mate Bob pitched up today. Bob is in his 70's and not short of a few bob but works hard for it doing stuff I wouldnt. He came clutching the buff log book for a 1930's Morris 10-4 he has just bought which is his next resto project. His name appears on it in 1960. The colour says "yellow".
Oh yes he says, I painted it yellow, with a brush. And will you keep it yellow I asks - too bloody right he says.

 

My kind of shiteist - at some point in the future it will belong to someone else, who will likely repaint it a proper Morris colour, but until then it will get used and enjoyed.

 

Use yours Ian, Enjoy it, and when it becomes too much, get something else and let the classic boys with deep pockets take it on. 

[mercrocker]

90 percent of  what is  written above I am in full agreement with.    Which cannot be said for some of the owners club forums I frequent.   The "Klassik Kar" movement has a lot to answer for in taking vehicles out of everyday use, and therefore out of general consciousness.   Putting a car away for "high days" and "holidays" seems, on the face of it, a great idea.   However....How many "high days and holidays" do us lot get?   Not bloody many.   Most  of my motoring is going to work, going to buy something that is further than a walk or cycle ride away, taking somebody somewhere I do not necessarily want to go and mostly in less than ideal weather.  So...should I buy a new car, a faceless, charmless, meaningless piece of electronic thievery to "save" a "classic"?   Not bloody likely - I would not even tip petrol in most of the shit I see people driving these days.   With fuel costing seven quid a gallon or whatever it is since they metricated  us into ignorance, I want some entertainment, charm and relevance from  my motoring.  I spent most of this morning underneath the Minor re-waxoyling and touching up stone chips as well as the continual front-end grease up, found a weepy hose and changed  the oil.   Cost...£25 and its good for another 6 weeks of  winter use, including a couple  of enjoyable  winter jaunts  we take part in round Xmas time.   Bollocks to new  stuff I am not even waiting for any of it to become interesting because to me it never  will...

[M'coli]

I've just read the first post in this, and the answer is...

 

 

...learn to weld, and to create repair sections.  Once you realise that Concours isn't important to your repairs, then making them strong and secure is the only important part.  Pick a car you don't give a toss about fucking up or there are so may still about that fucking it up doesn't matter and practice on that, then you're ready to try something that you care about.

 

How do you think I felt about commuting 38miles a day at the start of the year and running the Cavalier down and up to Devon while on family business?  Seeing the overhead matrix on the M42 at Brum whilst driving through half an inch of snow saying, "Is your car prepared for winter" and running through the following checklist in my head:

 

Winter tyres: yes.

Correct antifreeze: yes.

Recently serviced: yes.

New discs and pads: yes.

Correct screenwash: yes.

 

Galvanised steel chassis: no...but I have tried my best by bolting on a canal boat sacraficial anode...but it's still not enough.

 

:cry: :cry:

[Jim Bell]

First world problems.

 

I wish I had a fleet and the options lamented above.

 

As it stands, One Car - Drive it.

[Des]

Unless there's a nice dry garage with a dehumidifier available there's possibly no real detriment in keeping the old stuff on the road, on condition that you shall, without fail, give all that salty road filth a good hosing down in a couple of months, blast that shit out of every crevice, and as soon as there's a dry day hunt out any scabby bits and deal with them, make absolutely sure you do this, do not disappoint me, that way in the long term the car will survive better than the misted windowed stationary for winter driveway fairies turning 60% moisture by April.

[Micrashed]

I like the idea of a sacrificial anode...

[catsinthewelder]

I'd got into the vibe of bangernomics with the 405 then 205 then the first BX which were all cheap disposable transport while the classic was off the road over the winter but I rather liked that BX so promised myself a better one when it dropped to bits.  The blue one ain't perfect but is really a bit too nice to be a winter hack. 

 

It's going to have to be though as I'm not planning on buying anything newer any time soon and it's a fair bit better protected than the 1100.  That said, if the 1100 was MOTed at the moment I would run it into town once a week or so to keep everything in order (and treat myself to a day without cycling).

[mercrocker]

Cycling/Classic dilemma No. 1 - Shit weather makes you want to use neither one...!

[wackywacerwill]

Use car

Buy mig

[drum]

For me, cheap motoring is about doing my own repairs. I have laid up the allegro for winter mainly because being able to swap insurance around is the only way I can afford to have several bangers. Land rover for winter and allegro for summer is maybe arse for elbow in shite land but I'm happy to be non-conformist by being conformist.

 

I went through about a decade of ultra cheap motoring by buying shite and not giving a shit about them: disposable shite. It's only when we get soft about old cars that they get expensive.

[plasticvandan]

afraid to say i think its a case of the shite has to get newer,but due to techonology and other crap todays shite isnt easy to repair by a shiteist.

Bangernomics 25 years ago meant running a morris minor traveller with fibreglass wood,pop riveted sills and sawdust in the gearbox,when it finally collapsed,go and buy another for £25.

15 years ago meant having an 83 Polo estate which you run into the ground for 4 years,then throw away and get another.

Now it means buying a 10 year old focus,and doing the same.

 

This isnt a story,this is just a much briefer list of my dads 400 odd cars over the last 30 years.

The problem is the blurred lines between shite/classic.

 

The sad fact is that once something has got to a certain age,it gets harder and harder to keep it on the road as a daily without expense and or repairs.

When these cars were younger and being used as shite,this wasnt as much of a problem.

think that makes sense?

[cort16]

I think the line comes when you go to scrapyards and there's none in there. I bet if you went to most scappies now you'd struggle to find a Sierra or mk1 Mondeo in there. Just now they're full of mk2 and m3 mondeos but in 5 years it'll be the same story.

[ShiteRider]

It's getting harder because cars aren't staying in scrappers as long as well. There doesn't seem to be much over ten years old in the yards these days, a lot of stuff just gets the fluids drained, the engine pulled then cubed.

I think your going to struggle to get decent secondhand panels and trim etc for todays bangers in 10-15 years

[Jikovron]

I buy into the art of preventative maintainence with my current 4 wheeled muck and trying to ensure that either condensation doesnt form inside the layed up motahs or that the runners are always kept on the move, use my car, then her car through the days trips

 

i feel the main issue with winter useage is accumulated salt ,road filth and water all over the exposed seams which seem to capillery suck it in, for this i think a good jet blast underneath from the standby jet wesher ever other or thrice day serves to sort that out , then if i feel really generous i'll have a wip round with the wd40 in the sills,,pillars etc

10mins job twice a week which has kept everything in great shape evidently this does cost in wd40/gt80/3in1 etc

 

i note also that tesco sell a dehumidifier gel box device which i have dotted around the interior of the skoda which atm is broken,,they do literally end up half filled with water 2-3 weeks in which i like the idea of and they are cheap luckily

 

i think the main thing to longevity is keep them on the move,brakes stay free, air circing through box sections, heater reducing humidity etc

 

my skoda i got with 10'000 on the clock, 2.5 years later its got 60'000 and its still in identical condition underneath due to the old wd40 and jet washing high mileage etc

 

i think that if the parts are cheap and generally easily fitted in an afternoon your onto a winner , no periods where the daily shitter is sat on axle stands,,or not being attempted at repair etc

 

my above post may be single minded subjective crap haha,,akin to 'this sentence is false' etc

[dollywobbler]

I think I need to improve my washing facilities also. Getting the pressure out is a right faff due to a stupid tap vs electricity layout. Hence the cars get washed every few months rather than days!

[Junkman]

As some may know, I recently bought a 1970 Rover 2000TC purely as a WBoD and as a stop gap daily transport until the gearbox of my other daily is fixed.

Do I feel bad about it? Hell no! Because

 

1. I have a long history of driving shite and shite only. In fact, I only bought two new cars in my entire motoring life and all other cars I had were at least 10 years old at the time of purchase. Many years ago, this figure became more like 20 years old, and nowadays I blatantly refuse to buy anything made after 1986, except it is indended to be used by my wife. She likes bader and PAS in a relatively small package, something that was relatively uncommon pre-1986.

 

2. all my cars (and the 2000TC will be no exception) are in a better condition at the time I sell them, than they were in when I bought them. All cars improve during my ownership, because firstly, I know how to treat a car, secondly, I know a lot about cars and therefore know what I'm doing, and thirdly, I don't drive like an idiot. Cars can lead a long and happy life during my ownership, as my 78 Caprice, bought in 1994 with 180k on the clock and sold in 1998 with 380k attests. Despite being driven 40k miles a year from Lappland to Sicily and from the Ural to Portugal, the car went from slightly tatty to pristine in those five years and was subsequently sold to a collector.

 

3. I am from a culture circle where people generally don't feel bad about enjoying something, including themselves.

[Lord Sterling]

I think one of the problems many of us here have is that we often become too attached to our cars. They become almost like old dogs that we simply cannot take a gun too.

 

Case in point for me is my current KV6 Sterling. I so wanted to use and treat it more as a work tool, something to take me to and from and just generally not care for it. But like a lot of people here, I have become increasingly fond of it. I have spent a good amount of money since receiving it and am planning to spend more on it. It is one of the best, most comfortable cars I've ever owned, and the newest too.

 

I really wish I could plan its future but with cars, you never know. Sadly, due to a seemingly continuing non-change to my circumstance, the car lives outside, I really wish it didn't. There is no point in me having a shiny classic as it'll only live outside on the street with twatty little kids playing around it and kicking footballs around. Unless I find a place which has a garage, I can only have car that I'm not too bothered in its condition.

 

The ideal situation would be, as Dolly_Ian says, would be to have a nice car for high days and holidays and a chugger for the winter. But as many us grow a fond of our cars, the chugger will often end up have time, love and money thrown at it.

 

I have never followed the Bangernomics philiosophy, I grow too fond of my cars and if I've got the cash to spare to make it better, I will.

[derskine]

My newest car was made in 1993 and is my current daily, it's had a few problems but nothing that can't be sorted and nothing that cost more than £50 in parts at one time.

I think if I owned a modern car I wouldn't be so inclined to fix it, when my cars break I feel like I need to fix them otherwise I'm letting them down, there's no way I could be as attached to something newer, it's just not the same.

I do however think it's essential to own a mig welder when owning old cars or it could get expensive, no amount of rustproofing will ever be 100% effective.

 

Plus having shite cars means I can have more than one, so if one breaks I have another (though not at the moment as only one is mot'd )

 

Shite >

[for fiats sake 2]

We may drive shite but we don't treat it like shite though do we?

 

I am avoiding using the iFat naPda during wet weather especially when the gritters have been out.

 

It's not garaged though and once I get around to having it waxoyled I'll take it out all weathers.

 

I'm lucky in that I have a modern car too that was bought to transport mum to shops and appointments which I have to admit has turned into my going to work car as I'm driving in the dark both ways at the moment and to be frank an '09 naPda is a hell of lot more comfy than an '93.

 

I though gone a bit mad and bought an'88 4x4 naPda for OMGSNOKAOS complete with OMGHGF no tax or MOT and fair size holes in most of the body work.

I have a feeling I'm going to be bezzie mates 4evr with the garage down the road.....